Asshai/Wall relationship (aDwD spoiler)

[Guest Other-in-law]

Another thing that connects the Wall, Valyria, and Asshai is that they all have their own version of the Savior, which seems to be the same entity....at least Maester Aemon thought so, and I believe GRRM has more or less confirmed it.

Westeros: The Last Hero, a figure who fought the Others in the distant past.

Valyria: The Prince (Dragon) who was promised, a person in the prophesied future.

Asshai: Azor Ahai, both a figure from the past, and one prophesied to return in the future.

Was Azor Ahai the Last Hero of Westeros? Or did he fight the darkness near Asshai? The two places are very far apart. It would be helpful if we could isolate the prophetic strands that the characters tend to mix together. There may be a chronologic discrepancy; the LH was supposed to have lived 8,000 years ago, while AA was prophesied to return only 5,000 years ago, iirc. Of course, pre-Andal chronology is very suspect after hearing Sam's thoughts in aFfC, and we don't know if AA's return was even prophesied during his own lifetime.

Besselfunction,

However, forget what I just said if there is something in the book that says that Asshai&the Shadow are in the South of Martinworld.

Jorah Mormont, in aGoT:

"Asshai, I would say. It lies far to the south, at the end of the known world, yet men say it is a great port. We will find a ship to take us back to Pentos. It will be a hard journey, make no mistake. Do you trust your khas? Will they come?"

[Errant Bard]

I'm not so sure about that.

Messianic figures are commonplace in any culture. Dotrakis have the stallion that mounts the world, for example. I doubt you can assimilate a fairy-tale hero to prophecied figures, too, it's like assimilating St Georges with Jesus. I am loath to see such a specific link between two cultures just because they happen to have somewhat similar myths.

As for prophecy, if anyone can read the future, wouldn't it make sense that they all see the savior of the world, no matter where they live on the planet?

[Guest Other-in-law]

The theory is nice, but I have a bit of a problem with the fact that the Wall is man-built. This doesn't fit with the concept of mystical world vital point. I mean, how did the world operate without hinges before it was built? From the legends, it doesn't seem to have been much different than now.

No? I thought before the original Long Night the seasons were normal. If so, the man-made aspect is an attempt to fix (or at least minimize) something wildly out of balance.

Also, in the same vein, Valyria is not an eternal realm, its foundation doesn't seem to coincide with the Wall's erection, nor its ruin with any supernatural event elsewhere.

Well, it's hard to judge just how long ago various things really were, since histories are either non-existant or unreliable, as the list of NW Commanders suggests.

Though, seasons out of sync because of a disturbance in the magical (rotation?) axis of westeros-planet is appealing, but if I remember what has already been said about that by GRRM, there won't be a SF explanation for it.

Well, it wouldn't really be a scifi explanation. At the moment, it really isn't any explanation at all, just a vague groping in a certain direction. At one point I thought of Lea-lines (spelling? I think that's a fantasy concept), or almost like magic behaving like a magnetic field, but that sounds cheesy.

[Errant Bard]

Ley lines, not a fantasy concept (well, half a fantasy concept)

Yeah, that would be an equivalent. Anything that Mel says sounds cheesy anyway, and I don't doubt that there are places of power in the world, like High Hearth, Summerhall, the Wall, Vaes Dothrak... I'm just not convinced that this axis truly exists, so I'm throwing arguments to test the theory. In the end I just doubt it is that simple, it's too straightforward to be mystical enough and it does only take one faith into account.

[Jon Targaryen]

The theory is nice, but I have a bit of a problem with the fact that the Wall is man-built. This doesn't fit with the concept of mystical world vital point. I mean, how did the world operate without hinges before it was built? From the legends, it doesn't seem to have been much different than now. Also, in the same vein, Valyria is not an eternal realm, its foundation doesn't seem to coincide with the Wall's erection, nor its ruin with any supernatural event elsewhere.

To provide some dates, the Wall was constructed 8000 years prior to the series and Valyria was "young" 5000 years prior to the series.

Prior to when the Wall was constructed was the Age of Heroes. This lasted from 12000 years prior to the series until sometime before 8000 years prior to the series. It is not clear, afaik, how long the Long Night lasted. But that took place right after the Age of Heroes.

Perhaps there was always magic in Valyria; there was just not a Freehold of Valyria. This last sentence is speculation.

[Ser Paladin]

To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow. -Quaithe

No idea how Quaithe's prescription will play out, but the north-south, east-west business sure fits with the Wall-Shadow axis...er, somehow. And there's Azor Ahai who performed some ancient feat, saving the world from the forces of darkness, though if he was Asshai'i he would have had to travel so very far to drive the Others back into their icy fastness.

Conceptually, this is hard to imagine on a spherical earth like our own. But going South to reach the North, and East to go West fits if GRRM's planet is a torus (donut). The playing area in the old arcade game asteroids was a torus. If you go off the top of the screen, you appear on the bottom, ditto for right and left.

A torus world also might account for the odd seasons.

[Happy Ent]

A torus world also might account for the odd seasons.

No.

[Jon Targaryen]

Another thing that connects the Wall, Valyria, and Asshai is that they all have their own version of the Savior, which seems to be the same entity....at least Maester Aemon thought so, and I believe GRRM has more or less confirmed it.

Westeros: The Last Hero, a figure who fought the Others in the distant past.

Valyria: The Prince (Dragon) who was promised, a person in the prophesied future.

Asshai: Azor Ahai, both a figure from the past, and one prophesied to return in the future.

Was Azor Ahai the Last Hero of Westeros? Or did he fight the darkness near Asshai? The two places are very far apart. It would be helpful if we could isolate the prophetic strands that the characters tend to mix together. There may be a chronologic discrepancy; the LH was supposed to have lived 8,000 years ago, while AA was prophesied to return only 5,000 years ago, iirc. Of course, pre-Andal chronology is very suspect after hearing Sam's thoughts in aFfC, and we don't know if AA's return was even prophesied during his own lifetime.

The prince that was promised and Azor Ahai Reborn seem to be two names for the same thing, at least according to Melisandre and Aemon.

AAR was prophesied to come 5000 years ago, when Valyria was young. But it was written about in books of Asshai.

Wrt the Last Hero, it does seem to be separate from AAR/tptwp and Bran's seems to be the reincarnation of that.

Just throwing things out there again.

[Errant Bard]

The prince that was promised and Azor Ahai Reborn seem to be two names for the same thing, at least according to Melisandre and Aemon.

They are the same. GRRM confirmed it in that SSM

[Roi Woodt]

This is what is there

To all those who doubted, Azor Ahai Reborn and the prince that was promised are two versions of the same prophesied savior/redeemer that is supposed to come.

What I really would like to see is what the exact question was, and what his exact answer. Or is this his exact answer? Because if he made multiple AA's, and trying to make it look as one in the book, would you really think he would give it away? No, he can better answer a la varys, and give half the truth in that case. He probably already thought about the answer before the question came in that case.

[Ser Spidey]

Since AAR and TLH are both supposed to be reincarnations, is there any chance that there was TPTWP in past too?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Messianic figures are commonplace in any culture. Dotrakis have the stallion that mounts the world, for example.

Indeed, and the person who was standing in front of them when they had that vision is the leading candidate for Azor Ahai reborn. I think the crones just misinterpreted that, and either Dany herself is the Stallion who mounts the World, or her dragons are. She's the mother of dragons, after all, so maybe they sensed them coming when they felt baby Rhaego kicking in her womb?

I also think that Dany will be the one to unite the entire Dothraki nation into one Khalasar, mustering in Vaes Dothrak and filling the empty city for the first time before leading them into the Battle for the Dawn. But no one else seems to buy that line of thinking. :/

I doubt you can assimilate a fairy-tale hero to prophecied figures, too, it's like assimilating St Georges with Jesus. I am loath to see such a specific link between two cultures just because they happen to have somewhat similar myths.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Azor Ahai is supposed to be a historical figure who will be reborn. Characters in the series equate his struggle, or at least his new struggle, with that of the Last Hero, and they equate the Dragon who was promised with AAR. Personally, I don't think we have nearly enough information about the Shadow to judge whether these were the same people fighting the same exact enemy, or if they were fighting parallel fights or what the connection is. But it seems to me like there has to be some connection.

As for prophecy, if anyone can read the future, wouldn't it make sense that they all see the savior of the world, no matter where they live on the planet?

Sure. However, some of the peoples of the world might have very marginal parts to play in those end times events, or in the original fight, so their mythologies might not reflect that stuff so much.

[Jon Targaryen]

I also think that Dany will be the one to unite the entire Dothraki nation into one Khalasar, mustering in Vaes Dothrak and filling the empty city for the first time before leading them into the Battle for the Dawn. But no one else seems to buy that line of thinking. :/

[Off-topic]

I agree with you. I think Dany's vision of the crones kneeling to her at Vaes Dothrak in the HotU is a sign of this.

[/off-topic]

Maybe we should add StMtW to the list of prophesied figures. I don't know that the crones have a lot of magic though or that they fought the Others or the Shadow.

[Ser Spidey]

The map is great, OiL.

Think you can upload it on the Citadel?

[Slynt]

Ley lines, not a fantasy concept (well, half a fantasy concept) smiley2.gif

Yeah, that would be an equivalent. Anything that Mel says sounds cheesy anyway, and I don't doubt that there are places of power in the world, like High Hearth, Summerhall, the Wall, Vaes Dothrak...

Maybe there is something similar to ley lines in GRRM's world since the concept of ley lines can be found in several of GRRM's inspiration sources.

Storm's End would be a place of power as well, isn't it mentioned the walls were ensorcelled?

Another similar idea showing up is that there is power in the blood of kings.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The map is great, OiL.

Think you can upload it on the Citadel?

I can't, no. Ran could if he wishes, but I'm not sure the map is really of general interest. It's mainly designed to illustrate my crackpot theory and has very few geographic details.

Ha, I had no ideas that ley lines were anything more fantasy technobabble. That link makes it sound like some people took them seriously!

[Zoë Sumra]

I know two "dowsers", for want of a better word, who've confirmed they can feel what they term ley-lines underneath some specific places of historical significance - including Coventry Cathedral, the Callanish stone circle and the Greenwich Meridian. It's a more common supposition than you might think.

[ithanos]

Adding my voice to previous posters, Great map OiL!

When I see an alignment like that on a map I'm struck by the thought a meteor or comet has left it's mark but then I really don't know what the impact pattern an incoming meteor/comet with bits breaking up in the atmosphere would leave.

[Ded As Ned]

Just to throw in my two cents... I definately subscribe to the polarity theory. I'm currently doing a re-listen to AGOT, and in (I think) Bran's second chapter, when he first meets the three-eyed-crow, he is falling in his "dream" and he looks to the north far beyond the wall and sees a "curtain of light" where the heart of winter is, and to the south beyond Asshai he sees the shadow with "dragons stirring beneath the sunrise". So there's definately a play between the curtain of light in the north and shadow in the south... I have no clue how this relates to ice and fire (if at all), or if Valyria is even related to these two, yet there it is in the text.

[Guest Other-in-law]

That does seem to establish the two as the furthest points in opposite directions. I forgot how that dream also names Asshai as in the far south (not just the far east), I've usually based the southern-ness on a comment of Jorah Mormont's.