Mafia Mini a la surprise

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok, I just reskimmed the argument. The only time Mexal even acknowledges Spidey is when Spidey jokes that Mexal is typing too fast, and Mex replies "Sorry". That's kind of weird, because even though a lot of Spidey's points were very similiar to Mexal's, you'd think he would at least acknowledge that there's another person out there attacking his opponent.

Mexal never gives any opinion on Ser Spidey's guilt, and never even says what he thinks of Spidey "parroting" him, although in one of his huge rants about me, he does being with a "most people seem to think Spidey's behavior was just fine" line (not giving his opinion on the matter).

I find nothing to rule out a partnership between them at all.

That said, I'd rather err on the side of caution here. I don't really trust Spidey's claim, especially given the timing and his total lack of (mention of) suspicions of VSM on Day One (the only time he mentions her at all was to ask me why I suspect her).

But I really am about to leave and won't be back for a lot of hours.

Ah, what the hell, I'll hold off on my vote. I just don't see Kat as all that evil. And I don't know that the Whiskeyjack and Gert kills make sense from her perspective. I think her game has moved passed "I would never kill Whiskeyjack on Night One", so I'm not clearing her on that like I would have in the past, and I do know that Gert was mighty suspicious of her. But still, the Gert kill just...I dunno. It doesn't seem to fit. It was something I wanted to look into today but I got distracted with this claim shit. But killing Gert over me makes a lot of sense for someone who was going to fake-claim, I'd say. And maybe by the end of the day, more people had Gert as VPI than they did me (though I felt like only West didn't, with possibly Spidey because of his "evil AE would want role discussion based on the game I watched when evil AE didn't" line of thought.), so maybe it was the more logical kill.

I should be back before Day ends (that's at like midnight or so, right?), so I [i]will[/i] vote, but I'd like to look over the thread again to see how I feel about Kat.

I'd also like some comments from Harlot and VSM about how they feel about Spidey's "choice" of investigating VSM and the timing of his claim given that he "investigated" somone Night One, and if you've got time, how you feel about him indepent of his claim.

I've got to go, I'm sorry.

[Ser Spidey]

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1379190' date='Jun 1 2008, 20.08']I don't know.

Spidey, why didn't you claim yesterday? Because Whiskeyjack was dead? I don't get it. Yesterday, no one (except you) suspected me, and no one suspected Gert. You knew very well that VSM was my top suspect, and you decided to let me go through the day in that mindframe because...? You also knew you were high on several people's lists and you decided to wait because...?

Sorry, but I'm not about to buy this.

VSM, you say he had to just sit back and wait for us to lynch you and Kat. Do you think that would happen? No one ever wanted to lynch you. (Except me. :P ) And I didn't really want to lynch Kat. I did want to lynch Spidey. I think if we'd lynched Kat today and she came up innocent, Spidey would have had a very hard time of it tomorrow.

I just don't know. This claim feels very off to me.[/quote]
I did not claim yesterday because I knew that the chances were extremely good that both VSM and I will make it to D3. It's better to have 2 CIs out of 5 players than out of 7. I've already said this.

Also, I was on your and West's list only. I let you to go through all of it because I suspected you, and, frankly, I still do.
[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1379192' date='Jun 1 2008, 20.11']Also, the logical time to claim really was yesterday.

Yesterday, were any of you thinking anyone was the finder and hadn't claimed? And would any of you have chosen any role but finder? So...were any of you [i]not[/i] thinking Whiskeyjack was our dead finder?[/quote]
If I'm not roled, who is? You seem to think it was WJ, which is insulting him. He would have played a different game on day 1 if he chose finder(the obvious choice) he would have played a safer game on day 1. Or, if he felt that he couldn't, or didn't want to, he would have made himself BP. He obviously hasn't.
[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1379198' date='Jun 1 2008, 20.23']That said (sorry for the triple post), Spidey's claim, whether real or not, clears VSM. The only other possibility would be that he's an innocent fake-claiming for the hell if it, and I despise that sort of thing so much that I'm not even going to consider it.[/quote]
I've already said this. You're opposing me, and yet repeating my own argument and trying to make it look original. Here:
[quote name='Ser Spidutch' post='1379002' date='Jun 1 2008, 12.25']Why am I calling us CIs? VSM obviously is one. There is just one FM left, and if I'm the one, she's innocent. If I'm innocent, I'm telling the truth and we're both cool.[/quote]

[quote name='Katarina die Siegerin' post='1379223' date='Jun 1 2008, 21.06']I agree with you AE--something feels weird about Spider's claim.

[i]On the other hand[/i], one reason he could have had for not coming out with his investigation yesterday is that he wanted to do it his way, and he distrusted you because you were saying he should claim. I disagree with the reasoning--after all, yesterday there were basically 5 suspects and chances to lynch, and the nightkills pretty much had to be AE and Gert. I thought it was unlikely that Spider would die instead of one of those two.

I dunno, though. Harlot(?) asked yesterday what West thought of the possibility of Mexal and Spider being partners since they kept repeating each other's arguments. I didn't suspect Spider much yesterday, but I also considered the likelihood that Mexal and Spider could have been partners who didn't have very good communication. It's hard to get in touch with Spider given his timezone and availability of computer. I found that out when we were mods together, so I'm not sure if communication would have been any better for him as a killing partner.

I'm still not up for being lynched today. I think I'd rather try out [b]Spider[/b] today, due to the general weirdness of his claim, and then if the game doesn't end, whoever's left with me and Harlot tomorrow can...well...think about lynching me yet again. And probably go through with it and lose the game, since AE doesn't want to lynch Harlot and VSM has been all over me like a cheap suit. :P

Anyway, that's all I got. I'm off to hike and pick berries.



(It's going to be ironic if it was Spider--who both West and I voted for on Day 1--and West and I both were at each other's throats yesterday, and we both end up lynched and Spider wins the game. :| )[/quote]
Kat, you can do better than this. Due to the general weirdness of my claim? C'mon. When I went to sleep, it was pretty obvious that West was getting lynched. There was no reason for me and VSM to be killed over Gert-just like I wanted. Gert was just a PI-and the two of us are CIs. I ask you again-who was roled if I'm not?

Also, don't you think Mex would have PM'd me if I was his partner? There isn't a hidden forum for minigames IIRC. We were online together for over 2 hours-plenty of time to consult. And you know very well that Mex always distances from his partners.

I'm done with this defense/attack. To me, it's absurd that someone is doubting my claim. I will now re-read both Kat and AE and decide which one has better chances of winning the game for the innocents [i]today[/i], by hanging. :P

[Ser Spidey]

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1379330' date='Jun 1 2008, 23.43']Well, here's this, which is interesting. Spdiey had just posted his list of all our names in Croation, and Mexal asked him what the point of that was.
I was getting the impression you were just posting to post. You could at least join in trashing the over-defensive WJ, my friend and partner in crime. It's quite possible that an evil Spidey would have read that as Mexal saying "let's gang up on Whiskeyjack."

After all, he certainly [i]did[/i].

(Still reading, just wanted to toss that out. I might have to cut this short.)[/quote]
OMG! PMs? :stunned:

[Ser Spidey]

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1379336' date='Jun 1 2008, 23.58']That said, I'd rather err on the side of caution here. I don't really trust Spidey's claim, especially given the timing and his total lack of (mention of) suspicions of VSM on Day One (the only time he mentions her at all was to ask me why I suspect her).

I'd also like some comments from Harlot and VSM about how they feel about Spidey's "choice" of investigating VSM and the timing of his claim given that he "investigated" somone Night One, and if you've got time, how you feel about him indepent of his claim.[/quote]
Why don't you trust my claim? I mean, really? Really really really? ;)

I've said that VSM was a blind spot to me. I didn't give her much thought once I decided to investigate her.

You can't judge my play separate of my role claim. I *am* roled. This affected my gameplay. First off, I was being deliberately suspicious to avoid a NK. Second, I was careless because I had a role claim to fall back on.

[quote]Ah, what the hell, I'll hold off on my vote. I just don't see Kat as all that evil. And I don't know that the Whiskeyjack and Gert kills make sense from her perspective. I think her game has moved passed "I would never kill Whiskeyjack on Night One", so I'm not clearing her on that like I would have in the past, and I do know that Gert was mighty suspicious of her. But still, the Gert kill just...I dunno. It doesn't seem to fit. It was something I wanted to look into today but I got distracted with this claim shit. But killing Gert over me makes a lot of sense for someone who was going to fake-claim, I'd say. And maybe by the end of the day, more people had Gert as VPI than they did me (though I felt like only West didn't, with possibly Spidey because of his "evil AE would want role discussion based on the game I watched when evil AE didn't" line of thought.), so maybe it was the more logical kill.[/quote]
My line of thought isn't as illogical as you're trying to make it seem. You nailed roled Piper in that game because of the role discussion. From the spoilers, I learned that you really hate role discussion and honestly believe that it hurts the innocents.

[Ser Spidey]

I've explained why I waited until day 3 and I'm not doing it again.

You've also failed to explain who is the roled player if I am lying. West and Gert would have claimed-they both knew (or could have figured out, anyway) that the game is going to end for them. And to think that WJ would have chosen finder only to get NKed night 1 is just insulting his intelligence.

Face it, I'm a CI. We have two CIs out of 5 players. This is good for the innocents and bad for the remaining FM. The remaining FM would try to make a CI look worse in order to create more suspects. This is why I strongly believe that either one of AE or Kat is evil and why I'll be voting no-one but them today and tommorow.

[Ser Spidey]

[b]Kat[/b] looks more guilty to me right now. Good night.

[Harlot]

My assessment is that Kat is the last FM. I tend to believe Spidey's reveal and I am more confident in the case against Kat than I am about AE. I'm hoping that Spidey and AE are both innos that are distracting us from the last FM and we'll have a nice laugh about it later. I know Kat would prefer that we wait, but it's Sunday night at 10, I'm going to bed and I'd rather not leave the final vote up to AE.

[b]Kat[/b]

[AutumnEvenings]

Well, ok then. :rolleyes: It's not like if I voted Spidey he'd've died.

No point in posting anymore since the game may be over.

[Whiskeyjack]

It is day 3.

5 players remain: AutumnEvenings, Harlot, Kat, Ser Spider, VerySmallMonster.

3 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

3 votes for Kat (VerySmallMonster, Ser Spider, Harlot)
1 vote for Ser Spider (Kat)

1 player has not voted: AutumnEvenings


[b]Kat[/b] has been lynched.

She was innocent.

PM the mods.

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok, well.

Harlot and VSM, I really would like you to both tell me what you think of the timing of Spidey's claim and of his choice to investigate VSM.

Second, Spidey: you weren't around when the lynch happened. You weren't around until after the morning scene was posted. So...you sent in a provisional investigation PM? Without knowing the CF result? Please explain your thought process there.

I absolutely do not acknowledge Spidey as "CI". I didn't "fail" to explain who the roled player was--you never even asked and I think my "Is there anyone who wasn't thinking Whiskeyjack was the dead finder" made it pretty clear who I thought it was. I don't believe that that is "insulting" to him. How would he have played a different game, as you suggest? By not being Whiskeyjack? I mean, when [i]Mexal[/i] called him over-defensive, he was suspecting Harlot, not Mexal. It was only through the course of their argument that he grew to suspect Mexal--and he was on the defensive here. He didn't pick a fight with an obvious FM...the FM called him out and it grew from there.

And we most certainly can judge your play "seperate" from your roleclaim. It seems like you don't [i]want[/i] us to do that. I see no reason at all to take [i]any[/i] claim at face value. You were suspected by many people, have no codes (which show foresight), claimed at a weird time and with a weird choice of investigation. Sorry, but you bet I'm taking your play into consideration.

I'll reread Harlot, but I'm very not impressed with you just now, nor with your "how dare you question my claim" attitude. (Especially since your whole reason for not claiming yesterday seems to boil down to "I decided to let Gert (VPI) rather than VSM (VPI) die last night".)

[Ser Spidey]

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1379614' date='Jun 2 2008, 07.16']Ok, well.

Harlot and VSM, I really would like you to both tell me what you think of the timing of Spidey's claim and of his choice to investigate VSM.

Second, Spidey: you weren't around when the lynch happened. You weren't around until after the morning scene was posted. So...you sent in a provisional investigation PM? Without knowing the CF result? Please explain your thought process there.[/quote]
I mobile-checked the thread around 3 am (I was on a party). Then I PMed Week (on Mafia board, since he now has a weird name on this one and you can't PM him).
[quote]I absolutely do not acknowledge Spidey as "CI". I didn't "fail" to explain who the roled player was--you never even asked and I think my "Is there anyone who wasn't thinking Whiskeyjack was the dead finder" made it pretty clear who I thought it was. I don't believe that that is "insulting" to him. How would he have played a different game, as you suggest? By not being Whiskeyjack? I mean, when [i]Mexal[/i] called him over-defensive, he was suspecting Harlot, not Mexal. It was only through the course of their argument that he grew to suspect Mexal--and he was on the defensive here. He didn't pick a fight with an obvious FM...the FM called him out and it grew from there.[/quote]
In that case, I believe that he would have made himself BP. He started off very agressively, made a case on Harlot based on only two posts. Not a very wise move if he was the finder.
[quote]And we most certainly can judge your play "seperate" from your roleclaim. It seems like you don't [i]want[/i] us to do that. I see no reason at all to take [i]any[/i] claim at face value. You were suspected by many people, have no codes (which show foresight), claimed at a weird time and with a weird choice of investigation. Sorry, but you bet I'm taking your play into consideration.[/quote]
Um, you can. But this shall lead to wrong conclusions, because roled players play a different game in which they knowingly attract suspicion. I don't believe my claim was either at a weird time OR that I made a weird investigation choice.
[quote]I'll reread Harlot, but I'm very not impressed with you just now, nor with your "how dare you question my claim" attitude. (Especially since your whole reason for not claiming yesterday seems to boil down to "I decided to let Gert (VPI) rather than VSM (VPI) die last night".)[/quote]
Gert was PI at best. VSM is CI. It's better to have two CIs with 5 players remaining than with 7 players remaining. How many more times am I going to have to repeat this?

[Alytha]

Howdy.
VSM wakes up dead.
She was innocent, obviously.

It is day 4.

3 players remain: AutumnEvenings, Harlot, Ser Spider.

2 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

3 players have not voted: AutumnEvenings, Harlot, Ser Spider.

[Ser Spidey]

Ok, this was more or less expected. I wanna lynch AE right away, but perhaps Harlot has left me alive just because of this? Re-reading both of you as soon as I return home.

[Ser Spidey]

I've re-read both of you twice and I still don't know what to think. :(

[Ser Spidey]

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1378548' date='May 31 2008, 23.04']Oh, this was something I wanted to comment on too, but I was pretty tired last night.

I don't think Mexal [i]meant[/i] to get in the argument with Whiskeyjack. He pointed out that the post sounded over-defensive but certainly didn't come out fist-ablazing. Whiskeyjack kept provoking him (not in a bad way, but in a "so is this suspicious or not?" "you gonna vote me or not?" way), making it so Mexal either had to back down and be all "just kidding", or face up and fight. So I don't think the fact that Kat made the post that Whiskeyjack was responding to clears Kat in any sort of "a partner would never defend another partner's post like that" way.[/quote]
AE, here you've said it yourself. WJ was the one who draw Mex in the argument. I sincerely doubt he would have done this if he was a finder.

That said, I now understand you better. You feel that I would have known that there would be no counterclaims because no-one claimed yesterday? Why didn't you say so in the first place? Sorry if I was ignorant, but I had my plan since I got an innocent result on VSM, and that was to come out on day 3, since I felt that both of us will live to see it. You calling out for a reveal was suspicious to me so it just made me more stubborn in sticking to my plan.

ETA: Now I finally realised her point of view, AE is a lot less supicious to me than Harlot. But I still find some of her attack on me illogical and thus suspicious. I'll be around.

[Harlot]

I am leaning toward AE. Several of the things she's posted yesterday and today lead me to believe that she's let me live because we were on good terms, but then especially yesterday she looked to be trying to get VSM and I to commit on how we would vote between her and Spidey. Since VSM and I both indicated that we tended to believe the reveal but only VSM was CI'd she had to go with me as the player with the most suspicion or possible connection to Mexal.

However I can also see an evil Spidey taking me into the endgame for the same reason. And his posts today have an air of waiting to see who votes first so he can bandwagon on.

I should have time in a few hours after my motion hearing to do a re-read.

[AutumnEvenings]

I was trying to get you to comment on Spidey to actually, you know, evaluate his claim. Because I wasn't sure of it myself, and because it might have given me some insight into your allegience. The fact that you were and are completely unwilling to do so makes me very nervous.

VSM was obviously dead. I wanted to hear her thoughts before she was axed. I wasn't convinced of Kat's guilt at all. I figured she would be lynched because she nearly was the day before, but I wanted to get discussion going anyway. Kat didn't believe the claim and she was innocent, let's not forget that.

You also have made no comment on the post I made addressing your suspicions of me. I also don't like this. It seems like you were very very willing to ride the momentum to a Kat-lynch yesterday.

If you're innocent, you should be trying to decide between me and Spidey, and yet you're not commenting on his claim or his play, or on my defense.

And where do you get the impression that you and I were on good terms yesterday? Remember that big post you made against me? (The one I answered but you ignored it? And rushed to vote Kat because you didn't want me to be able to vote?)

VSM was dead as soon as Spidey claimed, and that's that. Don't really appreciate you trying to use her death to set me up.

I'm sorry, I really will not have time until after 2 pm (GMT-7). I'll do a reread then.

[AutumnEvenings]

[quote name='Ser Spidutch' post='1379869' date='Jun 2 2008, 08.03']AE, here you've said it yourself. WJ was the one who draw Mex in the argument. I sincerely doubt he would have done this if he was a finder.[/quote]But he didn't know Mex's allignment at the time. Mex accused him of being overdefensive, WJ responded, Mex tried to be all "I'm judging, not calling you suspicious" but WJ wouldn't let that slide. It's not like he picked a fight with an obvious FM, like I said before. Mex made a comment which then escalated into the argument which caused WJ (and others) to suspect Mex. [i]Whiskeyjack would not have known how this was going to turn out when he first began defending himself against Mexal's comment.[/i]

When did you pick your power? As soon as you got the PM or when night fell?

Ok on your answer of when you sent in your investigation, but that doesn't explain your other comment of saying you stopped thinking about VSM as soon as you decided to investigate her which was why you never mentioned her on Day One except to ask me why [i]I[/i] suspected her.

Now I'm [i]really[/i] out of time.

[Ser Spidey]

I picked my role when I first posted here in the thread-in the Euro morning. The game had already started.

Will return in about two hours.

[Ser Spidey]

Oh, what the hell. [b]Harlot[/b] is probably guilty. Good night.