March Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Etrangere' post='1646591' date='Jan 12 2009, 20.56']Either you're not doing a very good job at presenting those party's platform, or their party's platform is nonsensical, since Israel is already democratic (*ahem* so far) and secular.[/quote] Like I already said, I have not read official charters. I will try to track them down in English or Arabic and see exactly what they say. I don't think that any party denies Israel is a democracy, but it is fairly common, in my experience, for Israeli Arabs to question whether Israel extends equally the right of free speech (a right typically associated with democracy) to all its citizens and...um...the topic of this thread suggests that, for those citizens who choose to exercise free speech in the form of a political party that questions the wisdom or viability of Israel as a Jewish state, this is a valid concern. If one party can run on the platform that Israel should be a Jewish state, then why, in a democracy, can another not run on the platform that Israel should not be a Jewish state? If the only qualification for a state to be a democracy is that all citizens get a vote, then Israeli Arabs have no right to question the limits of Israel's democracy. If, however, we include other ideas or actions commonly associated with democracy, people could legitimately raise concerns. I don't think this is particularly surprising, and similar concerns have been expressed by citizens of other liberal democracies. None of this is even remotely limited to Israel. The question of whether a state can be democratic and treat its citizens equally and also be designed with the express purpose of functioning as a state for a particularly ethnic group is more particular to Israel's situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Cocomaan' post='1646622' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.27']Funny. I seem to recall disenfranchisement as being the beginning of a harsh era of Jewish history.[/quote] Rage...building...feeling provoked...but will not...must not....take the bait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646609' date='Jan 13 2009, 03.14']And according to its Constitution (or whatever document was quoted earlier), they're a 'State of the Jewish People'. There does seem something inherently exclusionary about such a declaration. And Arab Muslim Israeli's might understandably be scratching their heads wondering what roles and opportunities they can hope to have in a 'State of the Jewish People'. And a bit frustrated that they live in a state whose self-proclaimed national identity doesn't seem to include them.[/quote] Exclusionary, yes. Although I don't read it as exclusionary along religious lines. You know why Israel states this as its purpose. It's because for the most part of the last 2000 years, Jews lived in countries where, stated or not, the national identity did not include them. This is something they wanted. As long for most countries in the world there's a specific cultural identity that, even if not stated, does define a lot its national identity, institutions and moral values as even multicultural and secular countries like the US, France and the UK have; I think it's a relatively legitimate desire for Jews in Israel. It's the only country in the world where, were I to live in it, vacations and free week days are based upon the celebrations I do with my family, and not on special day I must take out from work or class to spend with them, to give you one relatively small example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646594' date='Jan 12 2009, 20.58']If that is the scope of their primary aims and the thrust of their rhetoric, I find it to be eminently desirable. The claims of being a Democracy and being a state for a specific, exclusive people are logically and practically inconsistent. You can't simply ignore or subvert demographic realities. (well you can, but you hardly deserve the label of a just state if you do.)[/quote] Thanks for saying what I wanted to while I was gone EHK. This is part of why I started the thread. The idea of an ethnic democracy just doesn't make sense to me. What the hell does it even mean? I mean, what do you think would happen if RT's wet dream came true and the US decided to declare itself a "White European Immigrant State"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Honestly, from the point of view of an organized government, how can you possibly allow a party that denies that government's right to existence to run for parliament seats? You can't. That doesn't make this right, really, but that's how it goes. We need wholesale changes is we don't want this sort of shit to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Cocomaan' post='1646628' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.32']The Minority Treaties were set up to do the same thing this ban is currently doing. I hate to play the slippery slope card, but I wouldn't put anything past the current Israeli government at this point.[/quote] For one thing, it is not at all clear that this ban will hold. In fact, it seems likely that the SP will overturn the ban. And another thing, no one is saying that the Israeli Arabs should not get a vote (at least no one who can make it happen). I'm sorry but I hate Holocaust/Israel policy allusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Relic' post='1646637' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.36']Honestly, from the point of view of an organized government, how can you possibly allow a party that denies that government's right to existence to run for parliament seats? You can't.[/quote] Sure you can. Canada does fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Yeah, that's a great comparison. Canada has a lot in common with Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1646640' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.38']Sure you can. Canada does fine.[/quote] Have Quebeccians started blowing themselves up yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='March' post='1646620' date='Jan 13 2009, 03.25']Like I already said, I have not read official charters. I will try to track them down in English or Arabic and see exactly what they say. I don't think that any party denies Israel is a democracy, but it is fairly common, in my experience, for Israeli Arabs to question whether Israel extends equally the right of free speech (a right typically associated with democracy) to all its citizens and...um...the topic of this thread suggests that, for those citizens who choose to exercise free speech in the form of a political party that questions the wisdom or viability of Israel as a Jewish state, this is a valid concern. If one party can run on the platform that Israel should be a Jewish state, then why, in a democracy, can another not run on the platform that Israel should not be a Jewish state?[/quote] Fair enough, I don't disagree with that. [quote]If the only qualification for a state to be a democracy is that all citizens get a vote, then Israeli Arabs have no right to question the limits of Israel's democracy. If, however, we include other ideas or actions commonly associated with democracy, people could legitimately raise concerns. I don't think this is particularly surprising, and similar concerns have been expressed by citizens of other liberal democracies. None of this is even remotely limited to Israel.[/quote] All citizens being allowed to vote is clearly not the only criteria to judge whether a state is a democracy. I'm not sure most other liberal democracies are in a position similar enough to Israel to judge their defining themselves as a Jewish State. [quote]The question of whether a state can be democratic and treat its citizens equally and also be designed with the express purpose of functioning as a state for a particularly ethnic group is more particular to Israel's situation.[/quote] I would definitely be more comfortable with Israel if it didn't use Orthodox rules for a lot of things regarding conversion, marriage, and judging who is a Jew; since my definition of Jewishness is along cultural - rather than ethnic or religious - lines; something I think is also a much more legitimate preoccupation for a democratic state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1646642' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.40']Have Quebeccians started blowing themselves up yet?[/quote] We put a stop to that right at the start. But regardless, saying "You can't have a political party in the government intent on getting rid of said government" is wrong. It can easily be done. And regardless of that, there's no evidence these Arab parties wanted anything of the sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Etrangere' post='1646631' date='Jan 12 2009, 20.33']Exclusionary, yes. Although I don't read it as exclusionary along religious lines. You know why Israel states this as its purpose. It's because for the most part of the last 2000 years, Jews lived in countries where, stated or not, the national identity did not include them. This is something they wanted. As long for most countries in the world there's a specific cultural identity that, even if not stated, does define a lot its national identity, institutions and moral values as even multicultural and secular countries like the US, France and the UK have; I think it's a relatively legitimate desire for Jews in Israel. It's the only country in the world where, were I to live in it, vacations and free week days are based upon the celebrations I do with my family, and not on special day I must take out from work or class to spend with them, to give you one relatively small example.[/quote] True many other countries have a national character predominately defined by a single ethnic or cultural group, in large part due to limited intermingling in other historical periods. (or at least during the period when their national identity was forged) But most of them don't enshrine that in law. That gives it a rather immutable and inflexible character that doesn't seem open to other cultures or peoples, and may even be seen as rubbing their faces in it. When its etched in stone, it seems thoroughly unwelcoming of any substantial multi-culturalism. Also the case for a Jewish state for Jewish people might be convincing given their historical oppression, but its not likely to be too persuasive to the non-Jewish peoples living in the territory where they decided to set up that state. And you can hardly blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646649' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.46']True many other countries have a national character predominately defined by a single ethnic or cultural group, in large part due to limited intermingling in other historical periods. (or at least during the period when their national identity was forged) But most of them don't enshrine that in law. That gives it a rather immutable and inflexible character that doesn't seem open to other cultures or peoples, and may even be seen as rubbing their faces in it. When its etched in stone, it seems thoroughly unwelcoming of any substantial multi-culturalism. Also the case for a Jewish state for Jewish people might be convincing given their historical oppression, but its not likely to be too persuasive to the non-Jewish peoples living in the territory where they decided to set up that state. And you can hardly blame them.[/quote] It's also funny to hear it on this board, in light of how many people laugh when someone starts talking about "Europeans being outbred by Muslims" and "American culture being supplanted" and some such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1646648' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.44']We put a stop to that right at the start.[/quote] I'm sure it was appropriately proportionate. ;) [quote]But regardless, saying "You can't have a political party in the government intent on getting rid of said government" is wrong. It can easily be done.[/quote] I think the argument is that the "the political party in the government iis ntent on destablizing/damaging the country." [quote]And regardless of that, there's no evidence these Arab parties wanted anything of the sort.[/quote] True, that we know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1646648' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.44']We put a stop to that right at the start. But regardless, saying "You can't have a political party in the government intent on getting rid of said government" is wrong. It can easily be done.[/quote] Uhh, the point of the government is to stay in power. No matter how you phrase it, "For the People" or what have you, that itn't going to change. That's how these systems work. Israel can't really allow for it without making wholesale reforms to their way of thinking. Should those reforms come? Yes, you and i agree that things SHOULD be different. But they aren't. And wont be till those people stop killing one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Relic' post='1646659' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.51']Uhh, the point of the government is to stay in power. No matter how you phrase it, "For the People" or what have you, that itn't going to change. That's how these systems work. Israel can't really allow for it without making wholesale reforms to their way of thinking.[/quote] Can't allow for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khaleesi Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 OK, so this is from 2006, but here is the platform of one of the parties: <<Platform: United Arab List – Ta'al The party calls for end to the occupation and the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, as well as the evacuation of all settlements and of the Golan Heights. The party calls for an end to the expropriation of Palestinian land and the razing of homes, and wants to put an end to plans for boosting Jerusalem's Jewish character. The party supports guarantying the right of return to Palestinian refugees in accordance with international decisions and the Palestinian consensus, and seeks the release of Palestinian and Arab prisoners. The party wants Israeli Arabs to be recognized as a national minority and be awarded more rights. The party demands the dismantlement of weapons of mass destruction in the world in general and in Israel in particular. The party backs the formulation of a constitution that would recognize Israeli Arabs as a national minority. The party rejects the recruitment of Arabs to the IDF and wants equal representation to Arabs at State institutes. The party also backs a boost in the status of women in all areas and the payment of allowances to all Israeli Arabs without discrimination as is the case with Jews. The party also wants gaps in education be minimized and calls for the establishment of an Arabic university.>> [url="http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3227315,00.html"]http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7...3227315,00.html[/url] I'm looking for something similar for the other party - Balad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646649' date='Jan 13 2009, 03.46']True many other countries have a national character predominately defined by a single ethnic or cultural group, in large part due to limited intermingling in other historical periods. (or at least during the period when their national identity was forged) But most of them don't enshrine that in law.[/quote] Yeap. But most countries don't need to. And a lot of worries about immigration is done along the idea that immigrants must subscribe to the values of the new nation, acquire the language, etc. to be accepted. Which shows it's also a preoccupation for those countries. (Of course a lot of those preoccupations are racist... but perhaps not all of them?) [quote]That gives it a rather immutable and inflexible character that doesn't seem open to other cultures or peoples, and may even be seen as rubbing their faces in it.[/quote] Law is quite mutable and flexible. I know the US likes its constitution very much, but in France we're already at the sixth one in 200 years, not counting the periods of non democracy. Not all countries are very open to other countries or cultures. I don't see anyone criticizing Switzerland for its notoriously hard to emigrate in policies? [quote]When its etched in stone, it seems thoroughly unwelcoming of any substantial multi-culturalism.[/quote] At least none that isn't willing to get along with the preponderance of Jewish culture, yes. [quote]Also the case for a Jewish state for Jewish people might be convincing given their historical oppression, but its not likely to be too persuasive to the non-Jewish peoples living in the territory where they decided to set up that state. And you can hardly blame them.[/quote] Oh, I don't blame [i]them[/i]. I blame the white Europeans, Americans and co I have those discussions with which might not realise the priviledge they enjoy under their country yet feel entitled to judge Israel for defining itself as a country where Jews might enjoy the same priviledge ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1646662' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.52']Can't allow for what?[/quote] Can't allow for itself to be undermined from within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Relic' post='1646669' date='Jan 12 2009, 21.59']Can't allow for itself to be undermined from within.[/quote] They should start a commitee. The House Unisraeli Activities Committee. /nods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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