Arab Parties Banned from the Knesset

[Shryke]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1647392' date='Jan 13 2009, 15.02']Are you condemning Israel for something they [i]might [/i]do in some theoretical situation?[/quote]

It's hardly theoretical, considering one of the main reasons the 1-State solution is dead before lift-off is because of this issue.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1646987' date='Jan 13 2009, 07.21']Because Western European culture is, at this point of time, extremely dominant in several power countries as well as through the world. You've no idea what it is to be placed in a position where your culture always the minority one, or even when it is in danger of extinction. Due to that, it is my impression that most white western people from a Christian background do not even realise how dominant their culture are even within their own country.[/quote]

This isn't really a sufficient answer to explain why its wrong for Western peoples to criticize a state with non-Jewish peoples for declaring itself a Jewish state. Yes our many lifetimes as part of the dominant culture may make us ignorant of the plight of those who are not, but that doesn't make the declaration just or any less exclusionary. It can be judged objectively (enough) by a WASP in England or a Congolese in Tokyo. It seems a relic of a different age really. What is the need for it?

The current Demographics, the flag, the symbols, the laws, the leadership, the national policy, all of the things Green Fish mentioned, all of that says rather unmistakably that this is a predominately Jewish country. Why does it need to be carved into law? Even with all of those state symbols of Jewishness, without that law there's at least the unspoken implication that there's room in that nation for others. That its national identity and character is subject to subtle alteration. But a law stating explicitly and unmistakably that 'This is a Jewish state' seems to preclude such things.

[quote]I don't believe I have argued in terms of historical injustices, or that it was a reason to wrong. As for perpetuating injustices, while Palestinian have their own national identity and definitely have a right to their own state in this name; it is true that, much like with Western culture, there is no shortage of countries where Arabo-Muslim culture is dominant; so that, even if many Arabs and Muslims live in countries where they are the minorities, they know they have place when they can go where things are different.[/quote]

Galactus already addressed this, but I think you make a mistake by suggesting some form of unitary Arabo-Muslim culture. Even further, these are their homes too, where they live, where they work, where their families grew up, the neighborhoods and people they know, why should they ever feel compelled to leave them? Isn't it incredibly presumptuous for any person or state to suggest that they should leave?

Also, almost every state, not just Muslim ones, has absolutely NO interest in taking on loads of immigrants or refugees of limited means. You say they can go next door? Next door doesn't want them. Nor should they bear much criticism or condemnation for not wanting them. At least no more than any other state that closely monitors and seriously limits immigration. (which would be almost all of them capable of doing so)

[quote]If you deny Israel its right to exist as a Jewish state; Jews won't even have that.
So which wrong is bigger, denying the Jews the right to have any state that is their, or excluding the Israeli Arab from ever being the dominant culture in Israel specifically?[/quote]

This isn't about denying Israeli Arabs dominant culture status. This is about a law that by clear implication excludes they culture entirely. Perhaps not completely in practice, but that's absolutely the symbolic value of it. States the world round, even those with multiple major ethnicities and infant national identities don't declare themselves a state for 'This or that' specific ethnicity alone. Did Serbia's constitution declare themselves a state for the Serbs? (maybe they did, but I don't think so) Noone is denying Israeli's right to exist as a predominately Jewish state. But at the moment that one clause seems to exclude others. And if there comes a time when Jews become a minority, it'll be a bit hard for them to call themselves a Democracy AND a Jewish state. They cannot be both maintained in perpetuity. Demographics change.

[quote]And yeah, I agree most countries are advancing toward trying to make multiculturalism work, and I think this is a good thing which I applaud. But until the day it does work in several countries, I don't see why it's Israel specifically that we should point out and require to be the first to make it work.[/quote]

Israel isn't being singled out specifically. Criticism about the lack of or fierce opposition to multiculturalism is levied at most nations when an incident arises. But the fact is most Western countries anyway are much further along on the process than Israel. Maybe they've got an easier road than Israel, but regardless...most of them don't have blood in the streets from their cultural disputes. If your definition of 'works' is perfect cultural harmony, than no, we're not there yet. But it is 'working' to a significant degree in a number of places.

As for the attention Israel gets, they're a focal point for alot of things. The most powerful nation in the world is an almost ceaseless backer. What happens there affects relations with the entire Arab and to some extent the larger Muslim world. (and they've got all the oil) Israel does get alot more attention than its size and status actually merits, but lets not pretend that this doesn't work to her benefit just as much as it does her detriment. Billions annually in aid. De facto immunity to any UN sanctions with teeth. Access to all the cool military toys we make. A much better likelihood of diplomatic support for their foreign policy objectives than any other nation of similar size and resources. I mean would Israel really prefer that we ignore them like we do most African states? Would they have survived this long if we did?

[quote]Entitlement to judge, I think, require being sufficiently educated in an issue, and sensitive to what different sides have to say for themselves, not just the smug self righteousness that comes from belonging to a democratic and wealthy country which has a history of imperialism which not all of them have properly digested.[/quote]

Fair enough. But you did say I have a 'judging pass'? Cool. :)

Edit to add: The comparison isn't completely apt, but this and some other stuff earlier (the 'fix our own multi-culturalism before we rip on yours part in particular) is similar to the discussions I frequently have with Chinese nationals when it comes to their human rights record, Turks with the Armenian genocide, or Serbs with the ethnic Albanians. This outright denial or severe downplaying of their own past or present transgressions with a hell of alot of finger-pointing towards our own.

Just because our house isn't perfectly in order yet should not preclude us or anyone else for that matter for condemning people who are burning parts of their own house. If every nation and every people were forbidden to criticize human rights abuses or general impression if they'd ever engaged in it themselves, noone would ever be allowed to talk about the topic. And there needs to be some appreciation for scale and severity. Yeah Gitmo and Abu Gharib are abominations, but no matter how many times a Chinese apologist points at it, its still not nationwide absence of substantive due process, tens of thousands of political prisoners, widespread torture and executions with limited (or absent) legal oversight and recourse, institutionalized repression and suspension of most civil liberties. We could have a thousand Gitmo's and still be the guys with the white hats compared to China. China isn't singled out because we hate China or the Chinese (you will hear this too in some discussions), but because they're probably the worst offenders of any major state. Being at the head of the class gets you noticed.

[The Khaleesi]

This continues to be an interesting and thought-provoking thread. I hadn't thought of the issue in Israel as an indigenous rights issue, but I can see there ARE comparisons. Coming from a country where the minority indigenous population has a Party in Parliament (as well as MPs in other parties), and lots of protections for culture and land ownership etc under law, I can see the Israeli Arabs have a way to go.
I mean - things here definitely are not perfect, but if anyone tried to ban the Maori Party (because of links to radical activists or some such), there would be hell to pay.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='The Khaleesi' post='1647473' date='Jan 13 2009, 15.53']This continues to be an interesting and thought-provoking thread. I hadn't thought of the issue in Israel as an indigenous rights issue, but I can see there ARE comparisons. Coming from a country where the minority indigenous population has a Party in Parliament (as well as MPs in other parties), and lots of protections for culture and land ownership etc under law, I can see the Israeli Arabs have a way to go.
I mean - things here definitely are not perfect, but if anyone tried to ban the Maori Party (because of links to radical activists or some such), there would be hell to pay.[/quote]

It difficult to compare Israel to NZ, just as its difficult to compare Israel to Canada. Completely different situation there right now.

[snake]

[quote name='lumer' post='1647195' date='Jan 13 2009, 13.17']snake -

What you say is fine and true but is not the reason for the banning. The link I provided upthread about Azmi Bishara's conduct is more to the point. Not to say that all arab MK's are like that, but that the decision does not exist in vacuum.[/quote]

The reasons given for the banning, or so I read at the BBC website, was

1) Denying the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state

and

2) Supporting terrorism, etc against Israel.

What I'm saying is that I find number 2) to be reasonable enough by find number 1) to be a bit strange. But I will admit that living where I do makes a lot of what goes on elsewhere in the world seem strange.

[quote]Generally speaking, its illegal for Israelis to visit enemy states. Nobodys going to care if your flight has a layover in Abu Dhabi, but going on a well publicised visit as a member of parliament...)[/quote]

I find this rather strange as well.

[The Khaleesi]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1647520' date='Jan 14 2009, 10.47']It difficult to compare Israel to NZ, just as its difficult to compare Israel to Canada. Completely different situation there right now.[/quote]

I am fully aware of that - just found it interesting to think of the whole "indigenous minority rights" angle.

[the silent speaker]

Lumer, is it okay if I quote your post on the bottom of page 6 regarding the timing on another board (cited to your board name here)?

[G'Kar]

[quote name='The Khaleesi' post='1647668' date='Jan 13 2009, 18.10']I am fully aware of that - just found it interesting to think of the whole "indigenous minority rights" angle.[/quote]

Yeah, this thread has been shockingly peaceful and interesting. Great sucess!

[snake]

I'm off to bed but G'Kar could you explain to me why being against Israel as a Jewish state is so terrible?

And why it is illegal for any Israeli to visit a state that is considered an enemy?

I know I never phrased it as questions in my previous post but I look forward to reading you answer or anyone else who would like to answer.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='snake' post='1648175' date='Jan 14 2009, 00.05']I'm off to bed but G'Kar could you explain to me why being against Israel as a Jewish state is so terrible?[/quote]

My brain is too tired to dig out a response at this point.

[quote]And why it is illegal for any Israeli to visit a state that is considered an enemy?[/quote]

Isn't it illegal for Americans to visit Cuba, or something?

[quote]I know I never phrased it as questions in my previous post but I look forward to reading you answer or anyone else who would like to answer.[/quote]

I'll probably come back tommorow and just copy, paste, and paraphrase what other people write, and claim it as my own. Not that I have ever done that in college.

:leaving:

[lumer]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1648149' date='Jan 13 2009, 23.50']Lumer, is it okay if I quote your post on the bottom of page 6 regarding the timing on another board (cited to your board name here)?[/quote]
Knock youself out. Just bear in mind I'm in no way an expert...

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1647324' date='Jan 13 2009, 21.22']Interesting stuff, but I don't think anyone raised these issues for dispute. Simply the declaration of a modern democracy being a Jewish state. Its just not consistent with notions of Democracy.[/quote]


[quote]Some of the things you raise though might be cause for concern. Are there benefits under Rabbinical law that are not accessible to Israeli Arabs? I know Israel is ostensibly a secular state, but the mere name 'rabbinical law' suggests a theocratic character. What is the nature of some of these laws? Do many of them have only ecclesiastical justifications? How close are the worst parts of it to the universally objectionable Sharia law?[/quote]

You mean, except for the fact that only Jews can ride a horse and carry a sword? :P
I can assure you that in most cities the mosque are usually taller than the synagogues...
The Rabbinical law (as stated by the State law) applies only for 'religious services' such as: marriage, divorce, burial etc. Most Israeli lawyers don't even know how to read a single Talmud page.

[quote]I can understand how separation of the education systems might be a practical necessity and how many Muslims/Arabs may even find it desirable, but it does bear distinct similarities to segregation. How rigid is it? Are these Arab schools in disrepair compared to their Jewish counterparts? Do they receive similar levels of funding and institutional support? Could an Arab Muslim enroll in a secular Jewish school if he wished? Is such separation viewed as a permanent condition or something that can and should be done away with someday in the future when/if tensions ease? This is not to say that Arab/Muslim education should be prevented or inaccessible for those who want it, simply that an integrated education system for most would someday be available and the norm? Is this realistic? Is it sought after?[/quote]

As Iceman of the North nicely pointed out, this is quite off-topic. Moreover, it is not my place to compare between the two education systems since I am a product of neither. I do know that there are very good public Arabic schools, and IIRC, a public school from Um El Fahem scored the highest in last year's final exams.
What I think is more relevant to the topic is that this segregation's strongest advocates are the Arab parties and leadership, which object to any kind of integration between the two populations (as in the example of the national service debate).

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='The Green Fish' post='1648280' date='Jan 14 2009, 09.03']As Iceman of the North nicely pointed out, this is quite off-topic. Moreover, it is not my place to compare between the two education systems since I am a product of neither. I do know that there are very good public Arabic schools, and IIRC, a public school from Um El Fahem scored the highest in last year's final exams.
What I think is more relevant to the topic is that this segregation's strongest advocates are the Arab parties and leadership, which object to any kind of integration between the two populations (as in the example of the national service debate).[/quote]
Still off topic, but the question about school is not straight forward. Segregation is one element, but so is also the right to get thought in your own mother tongue. It's not comparable to the segregation in the US where the colour of your skin determined which school you attended.

[Datepalm]

[quote name='March' post='1647308' date='Jan 13 2009, 21.06']Thanks for the additional information. I talked to my relatives about this and, like you, they understand it not as an attempt at disenfranchisement, but as another measure started by some right-wing group for purposes that the Supreme Court will shoot down.

The family is in Nazareth, one group in the charming (read: dilapidated :) ) old city and the rest in the new parts.[/quote]


I read it mostly as a case of "look at me" by right wing parties hoping to shore up how tough they are to get the xenophobe vote. (Seriously aided by the Bshara affair and Tibi's occasional...um...tastelesness. )

(on Nazereth - I was there a few months ago. I see what you mean, but on the other hand refurbishment attempts of old areas often tend to make them completely sterile somehow, aka, Jaffa, parts of Acre, even not-that-old Jerusalem neighbourhoods, etc.)

on illegal to go to enemy countries - Its not like its often prosecuted, but the logic is that a. you could be aiding the enemy, b, probably more seriously, you could be kidnapped and used as a hostage. (See, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchanan_Tannenbaum"]Elhanan Tennebaum[/url].) (Basically, since these countries, at least publicly, still support the destruction of Israel, and have no kind of diplomatic links, what else could )

So, an air riad siren is going off.
IN jerusalem.

WTF?!

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='Datepalm' post='1648348' date='Jan 14 2009, 11.57']So, an air riad siren is going off.
IN jerusalem.

WTF?![/quote]
Really, what's going on?

As I'm sitting here I'm listening to "Important Message - Listen to the Radio", but as it's noon on a Wednesday it's with 99.9% probability just a test.

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1648352' date='Jan 14 2009, 13.02']Really, what's going on?

As I'm sitting here I'm listening to "Important Message - Listen to the Radio", but as it's noon on a Wednesday it's with 99.9% probability just a test.[/quote]

WTF indeed.

I just saw and old man hiding in the public toilet in my campus... This is not cool

[Datepalm]

[quote name='The Green Fish' post='1648353' date='Jan 14 2009, 13.07']WTF indeed.

I just saw and old man hiding in the public toilet in my campus... This is not cool[/quote]

Aren't you in Haifa?

Ynet has it as a mistake in J-m (FAIL!)

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='Datepalm' post='1648355' date='Jan 14 2009, 13.11']Aren't you in Haifa?

Ynet has it as a mistake in J-m (FAIL!)[/quote]

Originally.
Currently I'm a third year student in the Hebrew University.

I guess I learned something today: alarms are much scarier when you're not expecting them :)

[Datepalm]

[quote name='The Green Fish' post='1648359' date='Jan 14 2009, 13.20']Originally.
Currently I'm a third year student in the Hebrew University.

I guess I learned something today: alarms are much scarier when you're not expecting them :)[/quote]

Lol. Theres a always a bit of disbelief about these for me. "Oh, its just the neighbours radio or an ice cream truck or a travelling disco party" and then everyone is running about and I have to face that, oh, it is it.

[The Iceman of the North]

Reminds me about a story I heard from one of our researchers. She was walking down a street in Kampala when she heard some noises. All around her people where taking cover while she was standing there looking stupid wondering what was going on wondering if it were firecrackers or something. Tuned out there was a bank robbery going on, and the sounds were shots fired by the robbers.