Datepalm Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote name='Elrostar' post='1653966' date='Jan 19 2009, 18.22']Interesting. I might have heard about what sounds like discouragement from serving and misinterpreted it. In any case, it doesn't seem like they do serve much, and that does seem to add to the sense of disenfranchisement. The idea of having universal national service but not having it be quite universal is just a little odd to me, I guess?[/quote] Its not just universal, its mandatory. Would you want to [i]force [/i]arabs to serve in the IDF? Theres national service, where some serve, and some do join the army. Bedouins aren't required to serve either, but its more of a norm with them, especially as trackers. (You wont find any argument from me, or likely from anyone else who's ever served in the army with bedouins, the the situation in the unrecognized villages needs to be fixed imediately.) Just as an anecdote, the last seminar I went to involved a long, and quite interesting and indepth discussion of arabs in Israel, and the complexities vis national identification, military service, etc. It was all very enlightening and we all felt terribly good about ourselves. Getting out of there, the first ride I hitched was an arab guy with two crucifixes and a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golani_Brigade"]golani[/url] dogtag hanging off the mirror. Who'd only picked me up becuas I was wearing army pants, becuase "you never know these days". this is my "stuff is always more complicated than we think it is" lesson. I think of it whenever I think I know anything about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [Anecdote] I was chatting with my grandfather today, who is an uber-Zionist and makes all sorts of racist bigoted comments about Arabs and Muslims, and even he was not OK with this political ban, so Israel should seriously consider overturning this ban. [/Anecdote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrostar Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1654244' date='Jan 19 2009, 15.25']Its not just universal, its mandatory. Would you want to [i]force [/i]arabs to serve in the IDF? Theres national service, where some serve, and some do join the army. Bedouins aren't required to serve either, but its more of a norm with them, especially as trackers. (You wont find any argument from me, or likely from anyone else who's ever served in the army with bedouins, the the situation in the unrecognized villages needs to be fixed imediately.) Just as an anecdote, the last seminar I went to involved a long, and quite interesting and indepth discussion of arabs in Israel, and the complexities vis national identification, military service, etc. It was all very enlightening and we all felt terribly good about ourselves. Getting out of there, the first ride I hitched was an arab guy with two crucifixes and a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golani_Brigade"]golani[/url] dogtag hanging off the mirror. Who'd only picked me up becuas I was wearing army pants, becuase "you never know these days". this is my "stuff is always more complicated than we think it is" lesson. I think of it whenever I think I know anything about anything.[/quote] Well everyone else is forced to serve in the IDF, right? So why aren't they? Especially since there then seem to be certain aspects of civic life which lead to disenfranchisement later on. That wikipedia article mentioned employment discrimination and such things. More fundamentally, I guess I'm wondering what the logic is for not having Arabs perform national service under the same conditions as everyone else? Is there one? Is it different from deciding that we're going to have national service for everyone in the US except for blacks, who can serve, but only on a volunteer basis? That just strikes me as exceedingly weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote]They were brought in and told to "behave". You don't see any issue with this?[/quote] It is pretty much standard practice for most modern police forces when it comes to riot control. I know that they talk to certain individuals before football matches with hot rivalries, or political demonstrations involving a high number of radicalized individuals. Properly applied, this is much more effective than tear gas (also cheaper than ruined shops and burned cars). Of course this can be misused to purposely create a general atmosphere of intimidation and repression. For me it's hard to tell with so many half-truths floating around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote name='Elrostar' post='1654481' date='Jan 19 2009, 17.37']Well everyone else is forced to serve in the IDF, right? So why aren't they? Especially since there then seem to be certain aspects of civic life which lead to disenfranchisement later on. That wikipedia article mentioned employment discrimination and such things. More fundamentally, I guess I'm wondering what the logic is for not having Arabs perform national service under the same conditions as everyone else? Is there one? Is it different from deciding that we're going to have national service for everyone in the US except for blacks, who can serve, but only on a volunteer basis? That just strikes me as exceedingly weird.[/quote] Just as an addendum to this, as far as I remember, it IS permitted to discriminate based on past military service when it comes to hiring employees. Or, basically, it's perfectly legal to hire one candidate instead of another because one of them is a veteran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The Wikipedia article goes into the employment issue. As to the logic of it, well, isn't it plain? Most Israeli Arabs don't [i]want[/i] to serve in the IDF, and will strenuously object to it in such numbers that it would be actively bad policy for Israel to carry out the consequences of refusal (I presume in Israel that may mean fines or imprisonment). So they avoid the whole issue. I don't see how it's deeply weird. Its not weird at all. It'ss merely dysfunctional, which is much more comprehensible. But they can't go part way with this, it seems to me. If the Wikipedia article is correct, there are a lot of jobs out there that imply you have to have military service, even though they don't actually require it. That merely exacerbates the issues, if accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrostar Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1654508' date='Jan 19 2009, 17.48']The Wikipedia article goes into the employment issue. As to the logic of it, well, isn't it plain? Most Israeli Arabs don't [i]want[/i] to serve in the IDF, and will strenuously object to it in such numbers that it would be actively bad policy for Israel to carry out the consequences of refusal (I presume in Israel that may mean fines or imprisonment). So they avoid the whole issue. I don't see how it's deeply weird. Its not weird at all. It'ss merely dysfunctional, which is much more comprehensible. But they can't go part way with this, it seems to me. If the Wikipedia article is correct, there are a lot of jobs out there that imply you have to have military service, even though they don't actually require it. That merely exacerbates the issues, if accurate.[/quote] But do Christian and Jewish Israelis [i]want[/i] to serve in the IDF? I guess I feel like the idea of mandatory national service is that it doesn't matter whether you want to or not. It's a legal requirement. I guess I just feel like the idea of racially or religiously discriminating whether or not you have to perform national service seems like a really bad idea to me, from a basic legal point of view. It's comprehensible, yes, but as you said, it's deeply dysfunctional. And it surely creates more of a divide in Israeli society. According to that wikipedia article, Arab politicians are opposed to the idea of Arabs performing some other kind of mandatory national service, which might otherwise be some sort compromise. I'm trying to think of a parallel situation in Denmark, for instance, where there is a lottery for national service. That is an incredibly culturally homogeneous society, but would it be considered acceptable for them to discount "second generation immigrants" (as they are known, although they are generally Danish citizens), from the lottery system? I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 National Service was a good compromise in my opinion. The numbers joining it are increasing showing how important a venue it is. It allows Arabs that feel uncomfortable serving in an army that fights other Arabs like the Lebanese or the Palestinians another way to be part of the consensus. As for those who don't serve in the army, the Arabs are only one half of that group. The other half are the Orthodox Jews, who don't perform national service either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1654508' date='Jan 20 2009, 00.48']But they can't go part way with this, it seems to me. If the Wikipedia article is correct, there are a lot of jobs out there that imply you have to have military service, even though they don't actually require it. That merely exacerbates the issues, if accurate.[/quote] I'm not sure it is. Military service is only applicable in stuff requiring it as background, generally - jobs as a security guard, for example. Its part of your resume - some military stuff looks good, some not so much. Its not a technical requirement in any kind of employment, to the best of my knowledge, except maybe some government stuff. (which isn't to say there isn't racism and discrimination, but I don't think its quite as systemic as you present it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Israel's AG said that charges are based upon flimsy evidences and the High Court is expected to rule on it by Thursday: [url="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3658985,00.html"]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3658985,00.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 The whole premise of disbanding these parties seems faulty to me. Since the accusations leveled against them are based mainly on the behavior of their PM (visiting and supporting enemies of Israel) and not on the charters of the parties, it's not the parties but these PM that should face expulsion from the Knesset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Elrostar, [quote]Christian and Jewish Israelis want to serve in the IDF?[/quote] Maybe a lot of them don't. But they accept the mandatory service, for the most part. They don't protest [i]en masse[/i]. So it's good policy to insist on mandatory service from them, since, hey, they do it and its provided Israel the forces it feels it needs. There isn't, as far as I can tell, any wide upset among Israeli Jews at the fact that the Israeli Arabs don't have to do mandatory service; it seems there is a certain pragmatic understanding and comprehension of why that isn't is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Joanna Nox' post='1653229' date='Jan 18 2009, 15.59']Which is a silly rule to begin with...[/quote] Next election, I'll vote for you, Nox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Brahm_K' post='1649653' date='Jan 15 2009, 00.18']And it is extremely frightening how fast human rights for minorities are evaporating in Israel. Well, evaporating is the wrong word, since Israel has treated the Bedouins, Ethiopian immigrants and many Arabs quite horribly.[/quote] It's not just Arabs and Bedouins. Even Serphardic Jews are getting the short end of the stick. Frankly, if you aren't Ashkenazi, you're treated to various levels of discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1654508' date='Jan 19 2009, 17.48']But they can't go part way with this, it seems to me. If the Wikipedia article is correct, there are a lot of jobs out there that imply you have to have military service, even though they don't actually require it. That merely exacerbates the issues, if accurate.[/quote] I'm asking Datepalm to confirm this, since I can't find any confirmation, but I recal that Secondary Education in Israel is socialized for qualified individuals, with military service one of the qualifiers. So, Israeli Arabs not participating in the military has the pretty heinous side effect of limiting education opportunities for Arabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I wish people would cite sources for some of these claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumer Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 scrahan, totally and utterly not true. Arabs have their fair share in universities. In some cases very un-proportionally too (civil engineering, for example). So as Ran advised, think and perhaps do research before making such outrageous claims. That goes for the Sephardic Jews also (this case is a lot more complicated though, and this thread is definitely not the place to discuss each one of Israel's social issues, which every country has them in some form pr other) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Here are a couple of articles that discuss studies that were done not too long ago. While they both see a gap in how Jewish Israelis are treated versus how Arab Israelis are treated they do suggest that education is one area where the gap is closing. [url="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3462471,00.html"]Article 1.[/url] [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000595.html"]Article 2.[/url] I don't know if these sites are biased or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Fish Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='snake' post='1655263' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.39']Here are a couple of articles that discuss studies that were done not too long ago. While they both see a gap in how Jewish Israelis are treated versus how Arab Israelis are treated they do suggest that education is one area where the gap is closing. [url="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3462471,00.html"]Article 1.[/url] [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000595.html"]Article 2.[/url] I don't know if these sites are biased or not.[/quote] I don't deny that there's discrimination, but more factors must be taken into account: Many Arabs live in rural areas (far from hospitals), their society structure, etc. etc. And Ynet and Haaretz are considered mainstream media in Israel, though both lean slightly to the Left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='lumer' post='1655218' date='Jan 20 2009, 10.59']scrahan, totally and utterly not true. Arabs have their fair share in universities. In some cases very un-proportionally too (civil engineering, for example). So as Ran advised, think and perhaps do research before making such outrageous claims.[/quote] That's why I asked; I'd heard this claim and wanted verification form someone I trusted who would be familiar with this. Datepalm lives in Israel, and frankly, I trust his opinion. My apologies, I didn't want this to be an occasion of rumormongering as much as verification of something I had been told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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