BloodofmyBlood Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Got all the way to aFfC and I started to wonder "What the heck is brienne's last name". she is always just Brienne or Brienne of Tarth. Her father is mentioned as "The Evenstar" or Lord Selwyn. Heads of families are often called their family names as titles ie Robert the Bruce. so is it Brienne Evenstar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onion Knight Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Her house name is Tarth, not just the name of the island. So It's Brienne Tarth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Onion Knight' post='1651450' date='Jan 16 2009, 18.27']So It's Brienne Tarth.[/quote] Yet GRRM goes out of his way to [i]never[/i] use that. Neither for her father. Lots of flowery circumlocutions. Evenstar. Maid of Tarth. On the Wall, [i]Ser Endrew Tarth[/i] is called just that. [i]Something[/i] is certainly fishy. (And yes, we’ve discussed it, to no conclusion whatsoever, many times. A nice angle is Brienne’s shadowy heritage via Ser Duncan the Tall, another houseless knight.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse With No Name Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Happy Ent' post='1651457' date='Jan 16 2009, 18.32']Yet GRRM goes out of his way to [i]never[/i] use that. Neither for her father. Lots of flowery circumlocutions. Evenstar. Maid of Tarth. On the Wall, [i]Ser Endrew Tarth[/i] is called just that. [i]Something[/i] is certainly fishy. (And yes, we’ve discussed it, to no conclusion whatsoever, many times. A nice angle is Brienne’s shadowy heritage via Ser Duncan the Tall, another houseless knight.)[/quote] So Brienne really is related to Ser Duncan? When I read AFFC I found it quite funny that her father is called the "Evenstar", while Duncan's shield shows a falling star at dusk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 From AFfC: [quote]a parchment commanding all loyal subjects of the king to assist the bearer, Brienne of House Tarth..[/quote] She's Brienne Tarth. But since the island and the family is named the same, it seems more common to refer to them as being "of Tarth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne the Beauty Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 "Of Tarth" It's the same sort of name as Von Trapp or De Niro. Of + place name. She is (probably) descended from Dunk who, being common, had no last name (which is why he announced himself as Duncan the Tall at the tourney, to cover up this fact). Maybe he was granted Tarth as a reward for his service to the king, and his descendants referred to themselves as "[name] Of Tarth" because they needed a house name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larajane Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1651653' date='Jan 16 2009, 19.49']She is (probably) descended from Dunk who, being common, had no last name[/quote] Yay, this means Dunk must have finally gotten laid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1651549' date='Jan 16 2009, 19.48']She's Brienne Tarth.[/quote] You know this because you are privy to information not in the books? Or are you speculating? Because as far as I can remember we checked, and she’s never Brienne Tarth, neither is her father Selwyn Tarth. (But I may misremember.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1651653' date='Jan 16 2009, 20.49']It's the same sort of name as Von Trapp or De Niro. Of + place name.[/quote] Well… The German [i]von[/i] signifies nobility. The Westorosi [i]of[/i] signifies the opposite. Ser Donnel of Duskendale is a commoner from Duskendale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Happy Ent' post='1651726' date='Jan 16 2009, 15.31']You know this because you are privy to information not in the books? Or are you speculating? Because as far as I can remember we checked, and she’s never Brienne Tarth, neither is her father Selwyn Tarth. (But I may misremember.)[/quote] "Of House Tarth" clinches it. "House" indicates surname, not place of residence. Cersei of House Lannister, not Cersei of House Casterly Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Other-in-law' post='1651735' date='Jan 16 2009, 21.37']"Of House Tarth" clinches it.[/quote] Oh, I’m not doubting that. She’s absolutely of House Tarth, and noble, and all that. But why is there not a single instance of Selwyn Tarth and Brienne Tarth? Why all the circumlocutions? I maintain that something is fishy. (I also admit that I may be seeing ghosts.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Again, I'd say it's simply because the island and the name are so strongly linked. Why Ser Endrew Tarth, rather than Ser Endrew of Tarth? Because he's not "of Tarth" anymore, as in the island -- he's a brother of the Night's Watch, who left that well behind him. I've always been curious by what ghosts you're seeing behind this, HE. Care to enlighten? ETA: Oh, as to being enlightened, this is a direct quotation from a list George sent us for characters to be included in the Who's Who for the world book: [quote]Tarth, Brienne Tarth, Endrew Tarth, Selwyn[/quote] (And yes, characters like Tom of Sevenstreams get slotted under "Tom of Sevenstreams", so George could have done that if he wanted with these particular characters :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireball07 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1651762' date='Jan 16 2009, 20.50']Again, I'd say it's simply because the island and the name are so strongly linked. Why Ser Endrew Tarth, rather than Ser Endrew of Tarth? Because he's not "of Tarth" anymore, as in the island -- he's a brother of the Night's Watch, who left that well behind him. I've always been curious by what ghosts you're seeing behind this, HE. Care to enlighten? ETA: Oh, as to being enlightened, this is a direct quotation from a list George sent us for characters to be included in the Who's Who for the world book:[/quote] That's confirmation, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Happy Ent' post='1651749' date='Jan 16 2009, 15.41']Why all the circumlocutions? I maintain that something is fishy. (I also admit that I may be seeing ghosts.)[/quote] Rhythm and flow. Normally the formula for bastard description is "Bastard of (castle name)". So why "the Bastard of Bolton" instead of "the Bastard o' the Dreadfort"? It [i]sounds[/i] better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1651762' date='Jan 16 2009, 21.50'][...] direct quotation from a list George sent us [...][/quote] Settled! Thanks, Ran! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='Happy Ent' post='1651457' date='Jan 16 2009, 18.32'][i]Something[/i] is certainly fishy. (And yes, we’ve discussed it, to no conclusion whatsoever, many times. A nice angle is Brienne’s shadowy heritage via Ser Duncan the Tall, another houseless knight.)[/quote] that would mean that duncan had a family before joining KG... if i remember correctly, there is ser duncan the tall mentioned in the white book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='baxus' post='1652012' date='Jan 17 2009, 01.37']that would mean that duncan had a family before joining KG... if i remember correctly, there is ser duncan the tall mentioned in the white book...[/quote] That's correct. Dunk became the Lord Commander of Egg's Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne the Beauty Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='Happy Ent' post='1651731' date='Jan 16 2009, 20.34']The German [i]von[/i] signifies nobility. The Westorosi [i]of[/i] signifies the opposite. Ser Donnel of Duskendale is a commoner from Duskendale.[/quote] I don't think so. "Ser" means the character is a knight - and thus noble. "Of Duskendale" means that he comes from Duskendale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onion Knight Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1652329' date='Jan 17 2009, 05.46']I don't think so. "Ser" means the character is a knight - and thus noble. "Of Duskendale" means that he comes from Duskendale.[/quote] Nope. Not every knight is necessarily a noble, and the opposite. A common can be raised into knighthood by doing "great deeds"(like Davos and grandpa clegane). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='Onion Knight' post='1652351' date='Jan 17 2009, 12.51']A common can be raised into knighthood by doing "great deeds"(like Davos and grandpa clegane).[/quote] These are bad examples. Davos received [i]more[/i] than just a knighthood. He received lands and a House name (House Seaworth). He and his offspring will be nobles. (Knights or not.) Ser Duncan the Tall and his master, Ser Arlan of Pennytree, are good examples of commoners with a knighthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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