Quality Actor for The Hound

[flying mosquito]

Oooh, my. I hope I can say my opinion without falling into racial quicksands. Let's try not to get this too seriously, ok?

Just a few characters are positively described as dark-skinned in the books. It's a physical trait that GRRM explicitly shows (same as the auburn Tully's, the blue-eyed Baratheon's and so on) and he often gives an explanation for this trait: they are sun-tanned dornish people, or come from the Summer Islands, or whatever. If GRRM does NOT say that somebody is black, I think he's probably NOT. Not that it would be inconceivable a black Hound, or Gregor, or Bronn, or whoever. But I think they are not.

[Venardhi]

I have to wonder why some people would like to see the Cleganes played by black actors. I wonder why there's no similar movement to see, for example, Melisandre portrayed by a black actress. It certainly can't be because big, violent men easily equates to black in some people's minds but beautiful, powerful woman doesn't equate to black as easily.

Yay, the racism accusations come out.

Not having a problem with the characters being played by black(or brown, or orange or any other shade of skin) actors is not the same as saying they should be. I even brought up the concerns in my first or second post in this thread. But like Bronn or Melisandre or Thoros or any number of other characters, their skin color is flexible much moreso than the majority of the 'old blood' Westerosi cast of royals and lords. As long as the majority of the Myrish/Summer Islanders/Asshai/Dornish/Valyrian/Astapoori/etc. are consistent amongst themselves, I care very little what color any one particular character is.

Oh, and fuck you for trying to pull that bullshit.

[dolorous_edd]

It matters very much if the Cleganes are the only important characters in Westeros played by black actors. If enough significant characters (and by that I mean Littlefinger, Thoros, etc. not random background characters) are also played by black actors, then it wouldn't matter. But to have only the most visibly violent and immoral characters portrayed by black men would be a problem and anyone who says it wouldn't is either being dishonest or isn't very perceptive. :)

[Dire Wolf Summer]

It matters very much if the Cleganes are the only important characters in Westeros played by black actors. If enough significant characters (and by that I mean Littlefinger, Thoros, etc. not random background characters) are also played by black actors, then it wouldn't matter. But to have only the most visibly violent and immoral characters portrayed by black men would be a problem and anyone who says it wouldn't is either being dishonest or isn't very perceptive. :)

I wouldn't mind if dark-skinned actors play the Martell's of Dorne. Middle-Eastern persuasion since Dorne is portrayed as a sandy, desert-like region of Westeros.

We were discussing only the Cleganes because it of the Thread "Quality Actor For the Hound" not "Quality Actors For Every Significant Character." I think there are separate threads for that.

I would say, you are way too perceptive, my sensitive friend.

[fitheach]

How did this thread become a discussion about race? How is Sandor described in the novels? Personally, I don't remember other than his face is scarred and his hair is lanky (straight hair? wavy?) brown and that he's huge- but not as huge as his brother....

Maybe they should just cast a man who resembles the character G.R.R.M. describes and hope he has talent.

Wow, what an original idea!

I mean, people would shit bricks if it was suggested that Jaime and Cercei be anything but hot and blond...

I'd be happy to see a multi-racial world on the show, and it would've been nice if Westeros in the novels was more mixed, but it isn't (other than Dorne)...G.R.R.M. does show us lands outside of Westeros that are seemingly non-European, and I'm looking forward to seeing how they're portrayed on the show.

So I imagine the characters will be cast as described in the novels, and who are we to second guess G.R.R.M. ;-)

[Venardhi]

You cast someone for talent first, and then looks. Some characters the look is nearly as important, like the Hound (or in my unpopular opinion: Robert) but acting talent should always be a consideration and casting lookalikes without any would be a terrible idea in general.

I think the point most of us are TRYING to make, is if there is a more talented black or brown actor that can do the character of Sandor better than his white competition, his skin color isn't a defining part of his character, and thus it would be acceptable (though not optimal) to cast the non-white actor.

[The Pita]

I see the Dornish as middle eastern, arab types. Arabs are usually brownish or really dark (darker than African-Americans is generally possible, and is the case with someone I'm friendly with). An actor who I think could play a Dornishman is Naveen Andrews, who is also British. I could definitely see him as The Viper or something. The same with Idris Elba. But it seems a stretch to get a Westerman as a black guy, is all I'm saying. I don't think what Venardhi and Summer are saying is racism, and it's kinda stupid to assume it is. I don't think anybody on this board is racist enough to think "Ooh, evil, he HAS to be black!" I mean, white people are much more evil than black people (I kid, please don't kill me). But it will make viewers uncomfortable to have a Scary Black Man, in a medieval society, especially one with such a good explanation as to how they're supposed to be white.

And I would love to see a black Melisandre. It can be explained as "She's from overseas", since she is, and it would be an excellent part of her character (even though her pale white skin is already described a lot), although, again, it's problematic due to her being generally accepted as evil.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Aren't their three different types of Dornish? Sandy Dornish, Salty Dornish, and rock Dornish or something i believe. All three of these would probably have a different appearance. I imagine the salty dornish would be the darkest, (perhaps resembling puerto ricans?) with sandy dornishmen as Spanish/berber, and the rock Dornish as Turkish.

Btw, i certainly didn't accuse anyone here of racism. Was just explaining that it could be construed as racism.

[The Pita]

It wasn't you, it was dolorous edd.

Not to point any fingers.

[Son of a Craster]

just a shoe ;)

[fitheach]

You cast someone for talent first, and then looks. Some characters the look is nearly as important, like the Hound (or in my unpopular opinion: Robert) but acting talent should always be a consideration and casting lookalikes without any would be a terrible idea in general.

I think the point most of us are TRYING to make, is if there is a more talented black or brown actor that can do the character of Sandor better than his white competition, his skin color isn't a defining part of his character, and thus it would be acceptable (though not optimal) to cast the non-white actor.

The agent of obvious strikes again... No shit they should cast someone who has talent first and foremost, do you think anyone wants a Hound that sucks? I was using sarcasm when I said "hope he has talent", you know- sarcasm.... But most likely they'll find a talented dude who happens to be caucasion, even if there is a more talented dark skinned actor out there. There also might be a more talented asian actor or latino actor for the roll.... There will always be someone out there who probably would've been better.

Yes talent is most important, what everyone is saying is for a show that's controversial in the first place (ie: incest, throwing kids off window sillls), do you really want to be more controversial and make the monsters dark skinned? That's like the masses of bad guys in LotR middle eastern looking- and that really pissed some folks off. But that is how they're discribed in the Tolkien books so....

Look, Westeros- like Middle Earth, is overwhelmingly caucasion with a bit of "exoticism" thrown in. This is a huge flaw of fantasy novels, but there you have it.

I'm sure the casting directors can find talented ppl who look as G.R.R.M. discribes in the book, and we'll all be happy and freeking jumping for joy.

Now lets all sing kumbaya and hug it out 'cause this is getting tired. Peace.

[PlainJane]

:agree:

fitheach -- your post made me laugh out loud literally.

~ Jane

[Dire Wolf Summer]

You cast someone for talent first, and then looks. Some characters the look is nearly as important, like the Hound (or in my unpopular opinion: Robert) but acting talent should always be a consideration and casting lookalikes without any would be a terrible idea in general.

I think the point most of us are TRYING to make, is if there is a more talented black or brown actor that can do the character of Sandor better than his white competition, his skin color isn't a defining part of his character, and thus it would be acceptable (though not optimal) to cast the non-white actor.

Venardhi,

If that doesn't make sense to others, it's a hopeless cause.

I say TALENT (actors & writers & production) before appearance. It's the substance.

Let's finally end this thread.

Let's start another thread. "VOTE FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. Jalabhar Xho FOR KING.

[The Pita]

Have you been reading our posts? Most notably, fiteach? But there is such a thing as going too far with what you're saying. Like casting Morgan Freeman as Arya Stark. Can he do it? No question in my mind. Should he? Fuck no.

It's not ridiculous to want actors who look like the characters' descriptions, and want actors who can act. I tried making a list of brilliant actors, and I decided to stop after I reached 100. There are a lot more actors than those I know, and those I know could probably play most of the cast. There are a lot of actors who can act. There are probably a few large white guys who can act, and want to play Sandor or Gregor. I realize that Scary Black Man is a fun stereotype to play with, but AGOT is not the place.

[fitheach]

:agree:

fitheach -- your post made me laugh out loud literally.

~ Jane

Well, if we can't laugh we're all going to be blubbering idiots by the time this show goes on air... :wideeyed:

Anyway, I'm all for ending this thread.

[fitheach]

Have you been reading our posts? Most notably, fiteach? But there is such a thing as going too far with what you're saying. Like casting Morgan Freeman as Arya Stark. Can he do it? No question in my mind. Should he? Fuck no.

It's not ridiculous to want actors who look like the characters' descriptions, and want actors who can act. I tried making a list of brilliant actors, and I decided to stop after I reached 100. There are a lot more actors than those I know, and those I know could probably play most of the cast. There are a lot of actors who can act. There are probably a few large white guys who can act, and want to play Sandor or Gregor. I realize that Scary Black Man is a fun stereotype to play with, but AGOT is not the place.

Are you asking me if I've been reading the posts, or if others have read my posts???? Me confused...

[flying mosquito]

Buffff... Guys, take it easy. I really don't want to offend anybody, but is a racial status-fight hidden in every choice?? If I pick chocolate or lemmon cake, is there an obscure connotation that I'm not aware of??

Isn't this a bit over the top?

[The Pita]

Are you asking me if I've been reading the posts, or if others have read my posts???? Me confused...

Gah, my diction sucks. I meant others reading your posts. Not you reading the post.

[King Bronn l]

I want the guy who played brutus in the HBO miniseries rome to play the hound.

[Mike]

I want the guy who played brutus in the HBO miniseries rome to play the hound.

Tobias Menzies is a quality actor, but I would be disappointed if he were cast as The Hound. He's just not physically impressive. Even if he got ripped, I just can't see him as intimidating. I'm hoping that they find a quality big actor to play him, not just a quality actor.