Rhaegar targaryen

[Arianne of Sunspear]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1712863' date='Mar 8 2009, 22.08']5-6) Lannister and Martell arranging their daughters to marry him is more a testament to Rhaegar being the crown prince than Rhaegar being of splendid stellar character. Furthermore, those both happened before the incident with Lyanna, which no one disputes was other than a one-off; I'm not aware that anyone claims Rhaegar was secretly a [i]serial[/i] kidnapper-rapist.[/quote]

All very good points and well stated.

However, I would suggest that we look at it in a more extrinsic manner as readers working with very specific choices by our Dear Author.

The very paucity and sketchiness of information regarding both Rhaegar's character and the earth-shattering event he was accused of perpetrating is something an authorial choice (as I commented earlier, we were led down one chain of understanding when we take Robert's version and Ned's memories together - Rhaegar was up to no good when he ...absconded with Lyanna, and that no-goodness led to what we were originally meant to think was a gory, violent death).

It is interesting, to note however that in some of the POVs from other characters who were alive and well and cognizant of the War of the Usurper and the events preceding it, notably Catelyn, Jaime and Cersei, they are almost universally silent regarding the whole affair. Cersei has a high impression of Rhaegar, but she's vain and superficial and her assessment of him is as well. Catelyn, strangely, never even refers to Lyanna and her fate [i]at all[/i] even though it directly affected the course of her life.

Which is not to say that they would have first hand knowledge of what happened to Lyanna, but things like Rhaegar being a habitual abuser of women would have certainly been common knowledge. I just find it highly suspicious, from a [i]critical reading standpoint[/i], that the [i]only[/i] reference to Lyanna being raped and abused comes from Robert, who is an unreliable assessor of the situation

This is not really a response to your post, but more of jumping-off of.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1711915' date='Mar 7 2009, 18.10']Besides Aerys II and Areion Brightflame (and possibly Visyres III) who else do you consider "insane" from the Targaryan line? It seems to me that the majority of the family isn't actually that f'd up. Sure there are examples of cruelty, egotism and self delusion, but I think on the whole they fall short of full blown mental instability. I've seen other posts of yours where you ascribe Rhaegar's actions to a predisposition to a genetic failing, but I'm not convinced that the true Targaryan legacy leads one to that conclusion (although we are, as readers, set up originally to think that way).[/quote]
Baelor the Blessed was probably insane, and so was Daeron.

Maegor the Cruel and Aegon IV the Unworthy are also possibles for having a touch of the Targaryen madness.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]things like Rhaegar being a habitual abuser of women would have certainly been common knowledge.[/quote]
That's just the thing. Nobody is saying anything about [i]habitual[/i].

[Ceomyr]

Calm down Silent Speaker. I'm not going to get mad at you. You haven't disproved my premises so far, but I'll respond.

1)Eddard believed that based on Rhaegar's character he wouldn't be the type to frequent brothels.

2) Barristan apparently thought he knew Rhaegar well enough to speak of his personal character and of his martial abilities. Also you didn't mention Arthur Dayne who knew Rhaegar even better than Barristan, and became Rhaegar's closest friend.

Knight's can break their oaths especially in difficult circumstances but Arthur, Gerold and Oswell stayed loyal to Rhaegar even after he died and they fought to the death for him. Yes they're members of the kingsguard but they also break oaths, even Barristan Selmy gave up rather than die, whereas these men under Rhaegar's orders fought to the bitter end.

3)Lyanna falling for him is a premise, and it *should* be because thats how arguments are structured (work from premises to conclusions). Lyanna acts as if she has a crush on Rhaegar and from what she's said to Eddard, it doesn't seem like she'd be impressed with a guy who didn't measure up to her moral standards (she wouldn't fall in love with Robert ever because he wouldn't stay loyal).

4) I maintain that Rhaegar wouldn't be so popular unless he acted well in public. Its circumstantial evidence of his character. He wasn't a very funny or jovial man either, it wasn't as if his popularity was based on jokes or a rockstar's bravado.

5 and 6) Tywin certainly spent a few years around Rhaegar and was extremely interested in marrying his daughter to him. Oberyn and Elia were very picky about the qualities of her husband to be, breaking wind for instance removed an otherwise suitable prospect from the field entirely. He is the crown prince but they would be *less* interested in marrying him if they thought he was a complete arse, instead they seemed very interested.

Lastly, I ask again, where's the evidence to prove Rhaegar was such a bad guy? I asked for someone to make the case that he's kidnapped, raped and or murdered Lyanna. I wasn't asking for you to just try and disprove evidence of his good character (you can still try all you like, but I don't think you're likely to completely disprove intrepretations of the facts and besides its not proving the point that Rhaegar definitely kidnapped and raped Lyanna).

The only reason my evidence on Rhaegar's character has *any* merit whatsoever is because the case against Rhaegar seems very flimsy right now. If you have strong evidence of Rhaegar's alleged misdeeds, I'd play up on that if I were you. I'd honestly like to hear what convinced some of you.

[israfel070]

Quick off-topic thought to Ceomyr,

Barristan was wounded to the point of being unable to stand any longer, rather than "giving up." It's mentioned that he fought against a dozen men at once, and that it was his ferocity in that battle that prompted Robert to take him on as LC of his own KG.

[Ceomyr]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1712982' date='Mar 9 2009, 01.52']Quick off-topic thought to Ceomyr,

Barristan was wounded to the point of being unable to stand any longer, rather than "giving up." It's mentioned that he fought against a dozen men at once, and that it was his ferocity in that battle that prompted Robert to take him on as LC of his own KG.[/quote] Then he still gave up by the standards of 'fight until death', but your point is duely noted, I had forgotten that. :thumbsup: Was it really a dozen men at once? I've forgotten where to find the part that talks about this.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Lyanna falling for him is a premise, and it *should* be because thats how arguments are structured (work from premises to conclusions). Lyanna acts as if she has a crush on Rhaegar[/quote]
You're thinking of Cersei. Lyanna never indicates a crush on Rhaegar.
[quote]I asked for someone to make the case that he's kidnapped, raped and or murdered Lyanna.[/quote]
We are [i]told he did[/i]. That's your case right there. You're arguing that doubt should be cast on that because of Rhaegar's character assessment; I'm countering that your character assessment is more rickety than you make it out to be -- especially because the argument against Rhaegar is not one of a consistent pattern of behavior but one atypical act. I repeat: [i]atypical[/i].

Rhaegar's character being potentially more open to suspicion does not prove anything, this is true. But I'm not using Rhaegar's character to prove anything; you are. I'm attempting to disprove argument from character entirely.

[israfel070]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1713020' date='Mar 9 2009, 00.07']You're thinking of Cersei. Lyanna never indicates a crush on Rhaegar.[/quote]
Actually, she cries when he sings a song at Harrenhal, and earns some teasing from Benjen for it. She holds dead rose petals as she dies, which are most likely the remains of the rose crown Rhaegar gave her when made her the Queen of Love and Beauty.

[quote]We are [i]told he did[/i]. That's your case right there.[/quote]
By the jilted guy who fantasizes that she ever loved him.

Next time you re-read, watch Ned's thoughts when Robert makes this accusation. He isn't consumed with rage or pain over the supposed brutalization of his beloved sister. He just thinks about how Robert has never let go of his obsession.

I could name a thousand instances when "we are told" things by the characters, which turn out to be inaccurate. Just as an example, using the same guy that we're talking about, Robert also called Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella his own children.

[Ceomyr]

Thank you Israfel you put it excellently.

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1713020' date='Mar 9 2009, 03.07']the argument against Rhaegar is not one of a consistent pattern of behavior but one atypical act. I repeat: [i]atypical[/i].[/quote] Yes and I repeat: arguing from that standpoint and concentrating on proof that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna really is your best chance of convincing me.

So go ahead and show me what proof you have besides a statement by one, biased, outspoken enemy of Rhaegar who wasn't actually there to see a crime take place. I've been waiting for more actual proof rather than Robert's hearsay.

I've already established that Rhaegar isn't likely some sort of villain who regularly goes about raping people, and its demonstrated that Lyanna has feelings for him. It would be a strange and out of character act for him to suddenly abduct Lyanna and rape her, so we should at least see something that proves his guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. Where is your proof?

We know that Lyanna is there in his tower guarded by his men against even Lyanna's brother, which is very questionable (you should have brought this up), she was covered in blood (and gore?) and dying when found. Eddard actually speaks with her and sees what happens to her, but strangely he doesn't seem to hate Rhaegar or have anger or bitterness towards the dead prince. Which makes the whole situation very weird and very mysterious.

Why was she covered in blood but still alive (if Rhaegar had wanted her dead, she'd probably be so before Eddard got there). Who (if anyone) told Robert that it was a rape? What secret was Eddard sworn to? There's too many questions here and there's no need for a rush to blame Rhaegar, he's a fictional character and he's already dead, he's not going anywhere.

[Goldaline]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1712973' date='Mar 9 2009, 01.43']3)Lyanna falling for him is a premise, and it *should* be because thats how arguments are structured (work from premises to conclusions). Lyanna acts as if she has a crush on Rhaegar and from what she's said to Eddard, it doesn't seem like she'd be impressed with a guy who didn't measure up to her moral standards (she wouldn't fall in love with Robert ever because he wouldn't stay loyal).[/quote]

It seems strange to me that she would reject Robert down to a lack of royalty but fall for a man who is pursuing an extramarital affair when he has two young children. Hardly a paragon of fidelity.

[Ceomyr]

Quite true. Perhaps Rhaegar was ordered to marry Elia. Rhaegar was probably quite convincing to Lyanna that he loved her and would be true to her. Maybe they planned some sort of bigamous arrangement for Rhaegar to keep two wives. Lyanna may have asked him for proof and then he awarded her the queen of love and beauty. Its all conjecture, only Martin really knows, all we really know is that Lyanna told Eddard she couldn't love Robert because he wouldn't remain true to her, but she did seem to fall for Rhaegar nonetheless.

Maybe she changed her standards though and I'm wrong to use that as any kind of evidence. Maybe they both loved each other before he married Elia. Maybe she lusted after him but knew they couldn't be together and he did kidnap and rape her, like I said I'm open to that possibility, but I don't see enough proof to make it my best guess at what happened.

[Goldaline]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1713233' date='Mar 9 2009, 07.22']Quite true. Perhaps Rhaegar was ordered to marry Elia. Rhaegar was probably quite convincing to Lyanna that he loved her and would be true to her. Maybe they planned some sort of bigamous arrangement for Rhaegar to keep two wives. Lyanna may have asked him for proof and then he awarded her the queen of love and beauty. Its all conjecture, only Martin really knows, all we really know is that Lyanna told Eddard she couldn't love Robert because he wouldn't remain true to her, but she did seem to fall for Rhaegar nonetheless.

Maybe she changed her standards though and I'm wrong to use that as any kind of evidence. Maybe they both loved each other before he married Elia. Maybe she lusted after him but knew they couldn't be together and he did kidnap and rape her, like I said I'm open to that possibility, but I don't see enough proof to make it my best guess at what happened.[/quote]

I do think it's very possible for her to have fallen for Rhaegar despite his marriage (for any of the reasons you suggested), but it does seem awfully hypocritical for her to give that reason against Robert (especially considering Robert's love for her was obviously genuine).

I suspect "R+L" is true but i very much do not want it to be for many reasons, one of which is how much it makes me dislike Lyanna.

[Ceomyr]

Yeah, I just hope the details aren't a real [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger"]wall banger[/url].

I don't begrudge her Robert, our hearts are free to love who they will. They did wrong Elia though, and I'm not sure how or if it was ever made up to her.

[Martin's Ghost]

Considering that Rhaegar and Lyanna was hidden away from the rest of the world at the ToJ (even Aerys couldn't find his son) it is possible that no one knew exactly what had happened and to what extent Rhaegar was a raving mad, violent rapist with a prophecy fetish. If he had acted all nice and proper up until then, limiting his fetish to astronomy charts, no one would have anything bad to say about him until his "episode" of rape and pillaging.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1713205' date='Mar 9 2009, 06.11']I've already established that Rhaegar isn't likely some sort of villain who regularly goes about raping people, and its demonstrated that Lyanna has feelings for him. It would be a strange and out of character act for him to suddenly abduct Lyanna and rape her, so we should at least see something that proves his guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. Where is your proof?[/quote]

I don't think that's established. Rhaegar's character isn't exactly fleshed out, and what we do know is conflicting.

For one thing, Martin seems to like having characters of mixed morality: Sandor's a murderer but he acts more knightly towards Sansa than the knights. Jaime has sh*t for honour, but he treats more honourably with Brienne than knights with better reputations.

Rhaegar might be the honourable Prince who would keep his soldiers from raping but has a preference for forcing himself on unwilling women from time to time.

Given the paucity of information we have about him, discounting Robert's beliefs simply because they are Robert's is as unwise as accepting them unquestioningly.

[Winter Crow]

[quote name='Martin's Ghost' post='1713367' date='Mar 9 2009, 15.09']Considering that Rhaegar and Lyanna was hidden away from the rest of the world at the ToJ (even Aerys couldn't find his son) it is possible that no one knew exactly what had happened and to what extent Rhaegar was a raving mad, violent rapist with a prophecy fetish. If he had acted all nice and proper up until then, limiting his fetish to astronomy charts, no one would have anything bad to say about him until his "episode" of rape and pillaging.[/quote]

Thank you! That was exactly my point. Nicely put, better than I did anyway :) .

Guys, we all know that Rhaegar was absolutely hypnotized with that prophecy. We know that he was willing to become the greatest warrior in Westeros just to see it fullfilled, and that is no small change from the bookworm he was before.
So is it really that unthinkable that, when he finally found the ONE person that could make the prophecy come true, Lyanna, and who was about to depart to the other side of the world again, that he seized the chance and seduced her into loving him? He was quite a handsome guy by all acounts, and his songs would do the trick, I suspect.
So, he seduces Lyanna into loving him, but Brandon and Robert overreacts when he takes her away. He realizes that his time is short, since Robert has called the banners and Ned has joined him, and that he will have to fulfill the prophecy as quick as he can.
So instead of waiting patiently until Lyanna has a child, he rapes her, many, many times, to ensure that he leaves a child before going of to war and dying.

This doesn't nescesarily say that he's evil, far from. Just that he was willing to do ANYTHING to see his prophecy come true, and we know that he was pretty damned determined. It might even have pained him greatly to do it, and I don't think he was a phsycotic serial killer who took pleasure in raping Lyanna, just that he did it because he had run out of options.
And so he instructs the three kingsguards to keep Lyanna safe under any circumstances, so that the child that may save the world is born. He then goes of to war, in which he knows he will die, and hopes that Lyanna will bear his child.

Lyanna must have been absolutely heatbroken by her love's suddenly violent treatment, yet still has some feelings for him. She desperately clutches the crown of roses he gave her, thinking back on their previous love, hoping that he will return to explain himself and start acting normal again. But the days go by, and then one day she hears her protecters die outside.
Ned crashes in, finds Lyanna, who has just given birth to her child a few days ago perhaps, the child either in the arms of a wetnurse or mysteriously gone (depending on what theory you follow). He tries to comfort her, and she says "Promise me Ned, promise me that..."
Well, I couldn't think of an ending :D .

Whew, that was long. Okay, that was just my little theory about what [b]could[/b] have happened.
Good luck reading all that!

[bacchys]

Do we know what the purpose of the Prince that Was Promised is supposed to be?

I don't recall seeing any mention of it. As a guess, given the history of Targaryens in the recent generations before Rhaegar, the Prince that Was Promised is the Targaryen who will bring back the dragons.

I don't know that saving the world is any part of that prophecy.

[Jojen's Ghost]

[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1713558' date='Mar 9 2009, 12.19']Ned crashes in, finds Lyanna, who has just given birth to her child a few days ago perhaps, the child either in the arms of a wetnurse or mysteriously gone (depending on what theory you follow). He tries to comfort her, and she says "Promise me Ned, promise me that..."
Well, I couldn't think of an ending :D .

Whew, that was long. Okay, that was just my little theory about what [b]could[/b] have happened.
Good luck reading all that![/quote]
We still don't know what the 'Promise me, Ned' bit was about. It might have been to keep Jon safe, but it also might have been to see that Jon became the king. They amount to the same thing in practical results since Eddard needed to hide Jon's identity to preserve his life, but Ned dreams of blood and [b]broken [/b]promises when he is in the Black Cells.

Lyanna died giving birth to a prince that should have become the King. What did she make Eddard promise her? If she had truly bought into Rhaegar's beliefs on the prophecy, she may have gone to her death believing that he brother would fulfill that prophecy by placing Jon on the Iron Throne. The fact that Rhaegar was wrong means little, it's what he (and Lyanna) believed at that time which may be important.

[israfel070]

[quote name='Goldaline' post='1713238' date='Mar 9 2009, 04.36']I do think it's very possible for her to have fallen for Rhaegar despite his marriage (for any of the reasons you suggested), but it does seem awfully hypocritical for her to give that reason against Robert (especially considering Robert's love for her was obviously genuine).

I suspect "R+L" is true but i very much do not want it to be for many reasons, one of which is how much it makes me dislike Lyanna.[/quote]
It's not hypocritical because you don't have to give reasons for not loving somebody. You just don't feel anything. However genuine their love for you is (not very in Robert's case, since he was already fathering bastards while he was engaged to her), that does not put responsibility on you to return their feelings.

Also, has it occurred to anyone that even if Rhaegar's motivation wasn't love toward Lyanna, but was less honorable instead, he still didn't NEED to rape her? Even if it's not the ultimate OTP of the series, she was all starry-eyed for him. He could use her willingness. We're not talking about an either/or, legendary romance or degrading assault.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Actually, she cries when he sings a song at Harrenhal, and earns some teasing from Benjen for it.[/quote]
That's it? That's what you got? By that logic Sansa is in twue wuv with Marillion.
[quote]I've already established that Rhaegar isn't likely some sort of villain who regularly goes about raping people,[/quote]
How many times do I have to repeat that this is a strawman?