Rhaegar targaryen

[Ceomyr]

[quote name='snake' post='1714791' date='Mar 10 2009, 10.44']Someone mentions how Ned never seems angry when he thinks of Rhaegar. True, but he never gets angry when he thinks of Aerys either and we know for certain what Aerys did to his father and brother. So Ned's lack of hatred is not a sign he didn't dislike Rhaegar.[/quote] I think that was me.

You could be right. When does Eddard think about Aerys though? I remember him thinking about Rhaegar and whether he'd be the kind of man to go to a brothel and he thinks not. When Robert brings Rhaegar and Lyanna up Eddard seems to think Robert is acting obssessed as Israfel pointed out.

I think Eddard recalls that Aerys is mad, he killed his father and brother and that he came to find Jamie Lannister sitting in a throne by Aerys' blood soaked corpse. GRRM doesn't say that Eddard was disgusted or angered, he's adopting a show not tell philosophy here, whereas with Rhaegar we *do* see Eddard's attitude mentioned.

That's as much as I can recall about Eddard thinking about those two, have you found part of AGoT where Eddard says or thinks anything approaching 'Aerys wasn't so bad, he had a lot of good qualities, I'm not mad at him. He wouldn't be the kind of guy to kick a puppy'?

[the silent speaker]

[quote]I remember him thinking about Rhaegar and whether he'd be the kind of man to go to a brothel and he thinks not.[/quote]
And we're told that this is the first time in years he's thought of Rhaegar at all. Which also suggests to me that Rhaegar was not a major part of Lyanna's life (until he became a major part of her death).
[quote]When Robert brings Rhaegar and Lyanna up Eddard seems to think Robert is acting obssessed[/quote]
[i]Fifteen years postmortem[/i]. Considering that Ned has not spared a thought for Rhaegar in all or a fair chunk of that time, yeah, I can see him thinking that someone who kills him every night in his dreams is a wee bit obsessed, not matter how just and right the first killing was.

[snake]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1714912' date='Mar 10 2009, 11.58']You could be right. When does Eddard think about Aerys though? I remember him thinking about Rhaegar and whether he'd be the kind of man to go to a brothel and he thinks not. When Robert brings Rhaegar and Lyanna up Eddard seems to think Robert is acting obssessed as Israfel pointed out.

I think Eddard recalls that Aerys is mad, he killed his father and brother and that he came to find Jamie Lannister sitting in a throne by Aerys' blood soaked corpse. GRRM doesn't say that Eddard was disgusted or angered, he's adopting a show not tell philosophy here, whereas with Rhaegar we *do* see Eddard's attitude mentioned.[/quote]

You are correct, AFAIK, that Ned only thinks of Aerys as mad. However, if one subscribes to R + L = J and that Ned knew of it, then he does have one unflattering thought of Rhaegar. When he thinks of Jon after leaving a brothel he wonders why men are filled with such lusts if the gods frown on bastards. Which also shows, IMO, that Ned believes Jon to be a bastard.

[quote]That's as much as I can recall about Eddard thinking about those two, have you found part of AGoT where Eddard says or thinks anything approaching 'Aerys wasn't so bad, he had a lot of good qualities, I'm not mad at him. He wouldn't be the kind of guy to kick a puppy'?[/quote]

I cannot think of any instance where Ned thinks anything good of Aerys or Rhaegar. Nor can I think of any instance where he has negative thoughts on either of them unless you use the "lust" thought I gave above. He does however feel that Robert avenged Lyanna so he must have felt that Rhaegar had wronged her in some way and that Robert killing him was the right thing.

[Ceomyr]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1715003' date='Mar 10 2009, 12.40']And we're told that this is the first time in years he's thought of Rhaegar at all. Which also suggests to me that Rhaegar was not a major part of Lyanna's life (until he became a major part of her death).[/quote] No, but you're on the right track, it suggests Rhaegar was not a major part of [i]Eddard's [/i]life.

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1715003' date='Mar 10 2009, 12.40'][i]Fifteen years postmortem[/i]. Considering that Ned has not spared a thought for Rhaegar in all or a fair chunk of that time, yeah, I can see him thinking that someone who kills him every night in his dreams is a wee bit obsessed, not matter how just and right the first killing was.[/quote] Except if Eddard thought Rhaegar killed her, he might still hate him, lots of people have trouble getting over the deaths of their family members. Eddard still has trouble getting over the fact that he's with Catelyn instead of his older brother and this was also from the [i]same time period[/i].

Neither of these are evidence for your theory.

[quote name='snake' post='1715041' date='Mar 10 2009, 12.56']Which also shows, IMO, that Ned believes Jon to be a bastard.[/quote] Even if Rhaegar was Jon's father Jon will be a bastard. As far as I know Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married, so any children they'd have would likely be bastards.Rhaegar died at the Trident so any plan he had of going back to marry Lyanna (or whatever he was going to do afterwards) was put to an end.

[quote name='snake' post='1715041' date='Mar 10 2009, 12.56']He does however feel that Robert avenged Lyanna so he must have felt that Rhaegar had wronged her in some way and that Robert killing him was the right thing.[/quote] That sounds like more viable evidence. Where is that part from? This could be a very good point you're brought up.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1715100' date='Mar 10 2009, 13.25']Eddard still has trouble getting over the fact that he's with Catelyn instead of his older brother and this was also from the [i]same time period[/i].[/quote]
Where do you get that from?

[Ceomyr]

[quote name='bacchys' post='1715140' date='Mar 10 2009, 13.51']Where do you get that from?[/quote] From memory. In the text it would be found in AGoT Eddard or Catelyn PoV, I believe its rather early on before they leave Winterfell.

[snake]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1715100' date='Mar 10 2009, 12.25']That sounds like more viable evidence. Where is that part from? This could be a very good point you're brought up.[/quote]

I don't have my books but it's in AGoT in the Eddard chapter where he and Robert ride out to discuss the news of Dany's wedding. It's early in AGot and that's all I can tell you from memory.

[Ceomyr]

[quote name='snake' post='1715147' date='Mar 10 2009, 13.57']I don't have my books but it's in AGoT in the Eddard chapter where he and Robert ride out to discuss the news of Dany's wedding. It's early in AGot and that's all I can tell you from memory.[/quote] Thanks, I'll take a look for this and the part about Eddard still having ill feelings about marrying his brother's betrothed.

[Winter Crow]

Fear no more, for I am here! (dun dun dun)

[quote]AGoT, UK version, Page 60:
"Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You (Catelyn), Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens. I never asked for his cup to pass to me.[/quote]

[quote]AGoT, UK version, Page 43:
Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.[/quote]

Those were the quotes you were looking for, right?

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='snake' post='1714791' date='Mar 10 2009, 09.44']First of all Robert is not the only person who mentions the rape of Lyanna in the series. Bran tells Osha of it when in the crypts at Winterfell.[/quote]
On that same occasion, Bran also tells her that Aerys had his grandfather beheaded, so clearly Bran's source of information is not reliable.

As to Robert's philandering vs Rhaegar; there's a difference between someone who can legally enter into a three party marriage (Jorah Mormont indicates that it's still possible for Targaryens to so) and some who has neither right nor interest in doing so, but instead humps everything he comes into contact with...flora, fauna, fire, rocks painted to look like god's face...

[israfel070]

[quote name='Ceomyr' post='1715100' date='Mar 10 2009, 10.25']Even if Rhaegar was Jon's father Jon will be a bastard. As far as I know Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married, so any children they'd have would likely be bastards.Rhaegar died at the Trident so any plan he had of going back to marry Lyanna (or whatever he was going to do afterwards) was put to an end.[/quote]
"Prince Jon Targ" fans would point out that many Targaryens practiced polygamy. Even Baelor the Blessed had two wives (though he didn't sleep with either of them). Also, being born a bastard isn't necessarily a block to ruling later, as some Targs legitimized their bastards. Even if he didn't marry Lyanna, which we are not sure of, Rhaegar could easily have planned to do this after the birth of Lyanna's child. It would have major political implications, but I think he believed that the PtwP prophecy overruled all such considerations.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1715321' date='Mar 10 2009, 13.49']On that same occasion, Bran also tells her that Aerys had his grandfather beheaded, so clearly Bran's source of information is not reliable.[/quote]

Maybe yes or maybe no. I mean if Ned knew that Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, I doubt he'd come back to Winterfell all "Yup they definitely loved each other, had a kid too! If you can believe that", it's just as possible as Bran to have had a bad source, as for Ned to have told his family a false truth, to keep Jon safe (and fulfill his promise to Lyanna :) )...

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1715491' date='Mar 10 2009, 17.07']Maybe yes or maybe no. I mean if Ned knew that Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, I doubt he'd come back to Winterfell all "Yup they definitely loved each other, had a kid too! If you can believe that", it's just as possible as Bran to have had a bad source, as for Ned to have told his family a false truth, to keep Jon safe (and fulfill his promise to Lyanna :) )...[/quote]
Of course. There's a reason I chose the words I used. A deliberate lie is just as unreliable as an unwitting error. For that matter, the beheading tale may have been a deliberate lie to spare his family's feelings the more horrific truth. Or not, Ned might not have known either...but then again, there's something in Rickard's tomb, and it ain't a normal intact skeleton. We've seen Cat viewing of Ned's bones, so it seems even more probable that Ned would have had knowledge of the interment of his family member's remains.

ETA: false truth? The word is "lie".

[Winter Crow]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1715504' date='Mar 10 2009, 23.17']For that matter, the beheading tale may have been a deliberate lie to spare his family's feelings the more horrific truth.[/quote]

But then why tell them that Lyanna had been raped- a fate that is very grim and horrific. Why would he spare Bran and the other kids the details about Brandon and Rickard's death, when he apparently didn't hesitate to tell them their aunt was raped?

My guess is he never told any of them anything. They've just heard rumors circulating around the castle. Probably.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1715509' date='Mar 10 2009, 17.23']My guess is he never told any of them anything. They've just heard rumors circulating around the castle. Probably.[/quote]
I sort of agree. He would have told him that his father, brother, and sister all died in the war, at least, but probably not gone into gruesome details. Or have given them toned down versions, like beheading instead of roasting.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]No, but you're on the right track, it suggests Rhaegar was not a major part of Eddard's life.[/quote]
Given how often Ned thought of Lyanna, if Rhaegar had been a big part of her life he ought to have come up in Ned's thoughts occasionally, as relating to her.
[quote]Except if Eddard thought Rhaegar killed her, he might still hate him,[/quote]
He might, or he might not. All indications are he buried his hatred of Targaryens with the end of the war, that once they were dead there was no point hating them. He doesn't (that we know of) dream about burning Aerys alive or strangling him for his father and his brother; why should he worry over Rhaegar?

[israfel070]

As far as we know, Robert was the only person Ned told the Wylla story to. Bran, Jon, Arya, and Cat each think about how Ned has never told them who Jon's mother was. This leads me to think that Ned preferred to lie as little as possible- it was too suspicious for him to leave Storm's End unattached and return from the ToJ/Starfall with a baby, so he had to offer Robert an explanation. To everyone else, he said nothing, and went out of his way to silence any speculation.

[Sirius]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1715739' date='Mar 10 2009, 20.09']As far as we know, Robert was the only person Ned told the Wylla story to. Bran, Jon, Arya, and Cat each think about how Ned has never told them who Jon's mother was. This leads me to think that Ned preferred to lie as little as possible- it was too suspicious for him to leave Storm's End unattached and return from the ToJ/Starfall with a baby, so he had to offer Robert an explanation. To everyone else, he said nothing, and went out of his way to silence any speculation.[/quote]

A story that Robert would no doubt love, to boot. We all know Robert's love for whoring and sex out of wedlock. :agree:

[Stalker]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1715855' date='Mar 11 2009, 04.45']A story that Robert would no doubt love, to boot. We all know Robert's love for whoring and sex out of wedlock. :agree:[/quote]

Yes, I seem to recall Robert joking about what a woman she must have been, to make Ned do the same.


Added: But obviously, there is also some sort of story about Wylla going around in Starfall.

[snake]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1715321' date='Mar 10 2009, 14.49']On that same occasion, Bran also tells her that Aerys had his grandfather beheaded, so clearly Bran's source of information is not reliable.[/quote]

People were just wondering if anyone other than Robert had stated that Rhaegar was a rapists so I responded. But put the two together and its as reliable as any other source of information we have.

[quote]As to Robert's philandering vs Rhaegar; there's a difference between someone who can legally enter into a three party marriage (Jorah Mormont indicates that it's still possible for Targaryens to so) and some who has neither right nor interest in doing so, but instead humps everything he comes into contact with...flora, fauna, fire, rocks painted to look like god's face...[/quote]

Legal by who's standards? Perhaps there was some precedence in the past but no doubt that was among Targaryens and in such a case as there was outside approval it nonetheless [i]required[/i] the approval of the family involved. Not the wishes of a 14 year old girl and a horny man near twice her age.

Whatever the situation, Rhaegar fucked up royally and suffered the consequences. No big loss really. I fail to see why so many readers are enamored with the douchebag. To each his/her own I guess!