Rhaegar targaryen

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='snake' post='1716941' date='Mar 12 2009, 00.09']Legal by who's standards? Perhaps there was some precedence in the past but no doubt that was among Targaryens and in such a case as there was outside approval [b]it nonetheless [i]required[/i] the approval of the family involved.[/b] Not the wishes of a 14 year old girl and a horny man near twice her age.[/quote]
Where do you get that family approval is required? From what I've seen, the opposite is true. No Starks gave approval for Sansa to marry tyrion, but their marriage is considered absolutely binding...or would be if it was consummated...and Tyrion wasn't already married (and not able to claim the Targaryen exemption to the bigotry prohibition). The point is no one claims her marriage doesn't count because [i]her family[/i] didn't approve.

The closest we get to that is Rodrik Cassel questioning the duressed marriage of Lady Hornwood to the BoB...but that has nothing to do with other Hornwoods or Manderlys not approving, just that the bride may have been coerced...which, for most R=L marriage theorists, would not apply here.

[israfel070]

[quote]Not the wishes of a 14 year old girl and a horny man near twice her age.[/quote]
I thought Lyanna was 16 at the Harrenhal tourney, and Rhaegar was 21?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='snake' post='1716941' date='Mar 12 2009, 00.09']People were just wondering if anyone other than Robert had stated that Rhaegar was a rapists so I responded. But put the two together and its as reliable as any other source of information we have.



Legal by who's standards? Perhaps there was some precedence in the past but no doubt that was among Targaryens and in such a case as there was outside approval it nonetheless [i]required[/i] the approval of the family involved. Not the wishes of a 14 year old girl and a horny man near twice her age.

Whatever the situation, Rhaegar fucked up royally and suffered the consequences. No big loss really. I fail to see why so many readers are enamored with the douchebag. To each his/her own I guess![/quote]

Hi, snake, good to see your post.

Just a little disagreement (would you expect anything less?) with this post. Rhaegar is about 22 when they meet and Lyanna is 14. He is about 24 when he dies at the Trident and she is 16 when she dies at the Tower of Joy. In Westeros that is practically the same age. Remember that Renly is conspiring to wed Margaery at age 14 to Robert who is 35+ at the time. Age differences aren't as frowned upon because a Westerosi marriage is all about the alliance it creates and not about how well the two individuals match up. We may well think a 22 year old should stay the hell away from a 14 year old - as the father of a girl and a boy who were both once 14 I can say I think that way in spades - but it makes no sense to impose our criteria on Martin's world. There a marriage can occur between people of any age (remember Tyrek's marriage to the babe in swaddling clothes?) and consummation of the match can occur between any married couple once they both reach puberty. Those are Westerosi standards.

You do raise an important point about family approval, but I believe that is the whole point of Rhaegar and Lyanna's "elopement." The Starks had already agreed to a match with Robert, that Lyanna did not want, and Rhaegar likely wasn't going to get his father's approval given Aerys's reaction to the Starks at Harrenhal and his alliance through marriage with Dorne. Now, if we are going to impose our age standards on Westerosi couples, why aren't we consistent by bringing modern real world objections to arranged marriages? If Rhaegar and Lyanna are really in love with each other, is it such a hard thing to understand they would defy convention and their families to find a way to be with each other? In the real world we would find that refusal to bow to convention a brave and noteworthy act, would we not?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1716949' date='Mar 12 2009, 00.21']Where do you get that family approval is required? From what I've seen, the opposite is true. No Starks gave approval for Sansa to marry tyrion, but their marriage is considered absolutely binding...or would be if it was consummated...and Tyrion wasn't already married (and not able to claim the Targaryen exemption to the bigotry prohibition). The point is no one claims her marriage doesn't count because [i]her family[/i] didn't approve.

The closest we get to that is Rodrik Cassel questioning the duressed marriage of Lady Hornwood to the BoB...but that has nothing to do with other Hornwoods or Manderlys not approving, just that the bride may have been coerced...which, for most R=L marriage theorists, would not apply here.[/quote]

I don't think it's a question of whether or not a marriage is legally binding if the family doesn't give its approval, but rather it's about what is expected. In the case of Tyrion and Tysha, for example, the marriage would be legally binding even without Tywin's approval, but Tywin sure proves who has the power in such cases. He can't legally dissolve the marriage, but he does so in every other meaningful sense of the word. Certainly in the case of both Rhaegar and Lyanna they would be expected to have their family's approval, and in the case of many families the couple might not even be consulted for their opinions. They would be expected to do their duty and marry whomever they were told to marry.

[Rinso]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1716958' date='Mar 12 2009, 00.43']If Rhaegar and Lyanna are really in love with each other, is it such a hard thing to understand they would defy convention and their families to find a way to be with each other? In the real world we would find that refusal to bow to convention a brave and noteworthy act, would we not?[/quote]
There is nothing brave and noteworthy if that costs the lives of their families and thousands absolutely innocents people in the war. In our world, or Westeros, I'd still call it monstrously egoistical and inconsiderate if it causes so much death and suffering.

What baffles me in this scenario is how there was no thought of the concequences. And come on, it's understanble if Lyanna didn't realize just how stupid and dangerous was the thing they were doing, cause she was still young, and if Arya and Sansa are any indication, raised in a pretty closed enviroment, but Rhaegar should have known better, being a grown man with the reputation of being exceptional and smart, and also being the heir of the Iron Throne. Under all the circumstances - Lyanna being engaged to another man (who is a great lord in his own right and is not the forgiving type if you cross him), Aerys being mad and dangerous animal, the fact that Rhaegar probably insults and shames Dorne by taking Lyanna as a second wife and so forth - how can an espape and disappearance be the best option? [i]That's the worst possible decision! [/i]

[israfel070]

Rinso, I'd argue that neither of the two asked for or even probably expected a rebellion to kick off. And I'd even disagree that it was the main cause. Robert, Ned, and Jon Arryn only went to war after the executions of Brandon, his wedding party, and all of their fathers. Aerys' fascism was the primary cause, imo. Without Aerys' actions, it probably would have just been Robert attacking Rhaegar on sight, or dueling him if Robert had the patience for it.

[Rinso]

Aerys wouldn't have executed Brandon and co. if Rhaegar and Lyanna had not disappeared, you know.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1716982' date='Mar 12 2009, 00.35']Aerys wouldn't have executed Brandon and co. if Rhaegar and Lyanna had not disappeared, you know.[/quote]
:huh:

[Rinso]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1717007' date='Mar 12 2009, 04.16']:huh:[/quote]
What? Aerys executed Brandon and his pals (and their fathers) because Brandon was so angry when he heard about Lyanna's disappearance that he went to King's Landing and called out Rhaegar to came out and die. As it happened, Rhaegar was not there and Aerys had Brandon and co. arrested and later killed.
If Rhaegar had minded his business and never bothered with Lyanna, Brandon would have married Catelyn and would never have went to King's Landing to murder him.

Should I spell out everything, for god's sake...

[israfel070]

You don't really expect your dad to burn twenty people to death. And if you do, I don't think you blame the whole thing on your own romance.

[Rinso]

Yeah, he couldn't have predicted that the family of his romance would be angry with him and he couldn't have predicted that by disappearing with her, he lets his batshit crazy dad deal with them, sure. He was either very stupid or a very inconsiderate person.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1717011' date='Mar 12 2009, 02.42']Yeah, he couldn't have predicted that the family of his romance would be angry with him and he couldn't have predicted that by disappearing with her, he lets his batshit crazy dad deal with them, sure. He was either very stupid or a very inconsiderate person.[/quote]

I'm sure he planned the whole thing out, and, knowing what was going to happen in the future, continued on with his plan to run off with the love of his life.

[Rinso]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1717013' date='Mar 12 2009, 03.48']I'm sure he planned the whole thing out, and, knowing what was going to happen in the future, continued on with his plan to run off with the love of his life.[/quote]
I'm not talking about knowing what was going to happen to a T, but it was [i]far[/i] from impossible to see that the running off will cause big trouble with the given circumstances. Sure, it caused [i]huge [/i]trouble, but it wasn't unforeseeable.

[Ser Hot Pie]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1714285' date='Mar 9 2009, 20.10']P 412 US hc aFfC.[/quote]
Thx. I was, shall we say, "in my cups" when I was posting before. Tends to make me hasty and belligerent. I was wrong.

[Tywin's bastard]

Personally I have a hard time imagining that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, mainly due to the conversation Ned has with Robert. I don't feel that Ned's part makes sense if he was talking about a person who kidnapped his sister and his best friend's betrothed, raped her and left her to die.

[Winter Crow]

[quote name='Tywin's bastard' post='1717134' date='Mar 12 2009, 14.36']Personally I have a hard time imagining that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, mainly due to the conversation Ned has with Robert. I don't feel that Ned's part makes sense if he was talking about a person who kidnapped his sister and his best friend's betrothed, raped her and left her to die.[/quote]

Well, there still is the possibilty that Ned actually doesn't know that she was raped, yet still were with her when she died. If she was raped then it would have been several months ago, since there would be no point for Rhaegar to rape her when she was already pregnant.
When Ned found her, she might not have told him of the rape. All he (possibly) saw was that she had just had a child. Wether it was concieved willingy or by force isn't very easy to see, I'd wager.
But what about her "promise me, Ned" thing? Hard to say. If she was raped, she [b]might[/b] have told Ned. "Promise me, Ned, that you will avenge me!" or something like that. The problem is that that would lead to Ned thinking about how he promised Lyanna that, and didn't keep it etc.
Therefore I think that Rhaegar [b]might[/b] have raped her, yet she still loved him and didn't mention it. What the "promise me" was about, I can't tell you with certainty.

[Tywin's bastard]

Yes, there is the possibility that she was raped but still for some reason didn't hate him for it (and thus didn't tell Ned about it) but I find it to be more unlikely and therefor I have a harder time imagining that to end up being the case.

[Winter Crow]

[quote name='Tywin's bastard' post='1717617' date='Mar 12 2009, 21.22']Yes, there is the possibility that she was raped but still for some reason didn't hate him for it (and thus didn't tell Ned about it) but I find it to be more unlikely and therefor I have a harder time imagining that to end up being the case.[/quote]
Well, back earlier in this very topic I actually discussed that very thing. I'm far to lazy to post it all again, so I'll let you guys find it yourself if you want to see it ;) .

But we really don't have nearly evidence enough to support either side. We actually know very little about Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship post-Harrenhal.
But yes, it is harder to imagine that she would still love him, but it could happen. There's just as much evidence for both sides, so for now it's kinda stuck in a gridlock.

[Tywin's bastard]

Yes, I've read a good part of the thread (although I have a fever so everything didn't stick as normal). Anyhow I of course agree it's not possible to prove either side to be correct, hence why I tried to be clear that it was my personal opinion that I find one more likely than the other. As more information is presented things could certainly twist in a number of ways but right now I'm thinking that the no rape scenario is more likely to make it into the book. Time will tell. :)

[snake]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1716949' date='Mar 12 2009, 01.21']Where do you get that family approval is required? From what I've seen, the opposite is true. No Starks gave approval for Sansa to marry tyrion, but their marriage is considered absolutely binding...or would be if it was consummated...and Tyrion wasn't already married (and not able to claim the Targaryen exemption to the bigotry prohibition). The point is no one claims her marriage doesn't count because [i]her family[/i] didn't approve.

The closest we get to that is Rodrik Cassel questioning the duressed marriage of Lady Hornwood to the BoB...but that has nothing to do with other Hornwoods or Manderlys not approving, just that the bride may have been coerced...which, for most R=L marriage theorists, would not apply here.[/quote]

The Starks were stripped of the lands and titles and Sansa became a ward of the crown and therefore it was their right to make her match for her.

The same with Lady Hornwood. She didn't really want to remarry but would have if Robb told her to because she had no one else to make an arrangement for her.

With Lyanna a match was already agreed upon and everyone knew about it. Breaking a marriage contract seems to be very serious business as can be seen by the Frey reaction to Robb's marriage.(I'm talking the original anger not the Red Wedding)