Rhaegar targaryen

[iheartseverus]

[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1720292' date='Mar 15 2009, 17.31']I've already adressed this far to many times. It's becomming quite a nuisance.[/quote]

Amazing. :stunned:

[Winter Crow]

[quote name='iheartseverus' post='1720303' date='Mar 15 2009, 22.42']Amazing. :stunned:[/quote]
Hodor?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1713558' date='Mar 9 2009, 11.19']Thank you! That was exactly my point. Nicely put, better than I did anyway :) .

Guys, we all know that Rhaegar was absolutely hypnotized with that prophecy. We know that he was willing to become the greatest warrior in Westeros just to see it fullfilled, and that is no small change from the bookworm he was before.
So is it really that unthinkable that, when he finally found the ONE person that could make the prophecy come true, Lyanna, and who was about to depart to the other side of the world again, that he seized the chance and seduced her into loving him? He was quite a handsome guy by all acounts, and his songs would do the trick, I suspect.
So, he seduces Lyanna into loving him, but Brandon and Robert overreacts when he takes her away. He realizes that his time is short, since Robert has called the banners and Ned has joined him, and that he will have to fulfill the prophecy as quick as he can.
So instead of waiting patiently until Lyanna has a child, he rapes her, many, many times, to ensure that he leaves a child before going of to war and dying.

This doesn't nescesarily say that he's evil, far from. Just that he was willing to do ANYTHING to see his prophecy come true, and we know that he was pretty damned determined. It might even have pained him greatly to do it, and I don't think he was a phsycotic serial killer who took pleasure in raping Lyanna, just that he did it because he had run out of options.
And so he instructs the three kingsguards to keep Lyanna safe under any circumstances, so that the child that may save the world is born. He then goes of to war, in which he knows he will die, and hopes that Lyanna will bear his child.

Lyanna must have been absolutely heatbroken by her love's suddenly violent treatment, yet still has some feelings for him. She desperately clutches the crown of roses he gave her, thinking back on their previous love, hoping that he will return to explain himself and start acting normal again. But the days go by, and then one day she hears her protecters die outside.
Ned crashes in, finds Lyanna, who has just given birth to her child a few days ago perhaps, the child either in the arms of a wetnurse or mysteriously gone (depending on what theory you follow). He tries to comfort her, and she says "Promise me Ned, promise me that..."
Well, I couldn't think of an ending :D .

Whew, that was long. Okay, that was just my little theory about what [b]could[/b] have happened.
Good luck reading all that![/quote]

You mean this one, Winter Crow? Not very persuasive. The idea Lyanna is clutching the crown of roses when she dies despite being raped by Rhaegar doesn't hold much water, imho. If the roses suggest Rhaegar to Lyanna it would make more sense if she insisted Ned burn them, not that she would die holding on to them. Sorry, for being a nuisance. ;)

btw, your statement that - "[t]his doesn't nescesarily say that he's evil, far from. Just that he was willing to do ANYTHING to see his prophecy come true ... " - pretty much defines evil in my book. Especially if the "anything" means raping someone.

[Shewoman]

Bran is a child. He doesn't know anything from his own experience. He may have overheard his father and Robert talking about what happened to Rickard and Brandon, but he himself has no independent knowledge to contribute to that conversation. You can't count him as a witness to Rhaegar's or Robert's behavior.

As far as Lyanna goes, in her conversation with Ned about Robert not being faithful to her, she never says "therefore I won't marry him." I don't think she loved him, and if that's true there's probably a limit to how much crap she'd put up with from him. If she was in love with Rhaegar--IF--she was probably willing to put up with a lot more from him than she was from Robert.

[Rinso]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1720252' date='Mar 15 2009, 16.35']Don't we have a very clear example of the anger of a House, the Freys, whose honor has been besmirched by a broken marriage contract? The Starks are not the Freys, so Brandon doesn't plan a wedding banquet in which he murders the royal family - rather he challenges the one member of the family he thinks is responsible for his sister's disappearance to a honorable duel to the death. The point being we don't even have to have Brandon believe Lyanna was kidnapped to explain his anger and his actions. If he actually believes Rhaegar has her against her will, regardless of the truth, it is even easier to understand, but it is not necessary. In Westeros, to break a marriage contract is a very, very big deal.[/quote]
Hm, the case is not the same as with the Freys. But anyway, my point is that you don't want to fight anyone to the death, if you don't believe that he's done something bad. Especially not one of the biggest shots in the royal family. People just don't do that without a reason, no matter if the reason is real or only in their heads.

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack']Um, well he thought that they had his sister for starts... I think that would be enough for me to basically say give her back or deal with the consequences.[/quote]
Uh-huh. And why did he thought that the consequences must be the death of Rhaegar?

[quote name='Edward the Great']You don't need to believe Lyanna was raped to believe Brandon's behavior.[/quote]
Lyanna herself might not have been raped - we just don't know yet - but it's not impossible to think that Brandon may have thought she was, given his behavior.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1720495' date='Mar 15 2009, 23.16']Hm, the case is not the same as with the Freys. But anyway, my point is that you don't want to fight anyone to the death, if you don't believe that he's done something bad. Especially not one of the biggest shots in the royal family. People just don't do that without a reason, no matter if the reason is real or only in their heads.[/quote]

The [i]reaction[/i] to breaking the marriage contract is not the same, but in both cases a marriage contract is broken. All I'm saying is that we know from the Frey example that it is a very big deal to have such an agreement broken, and anger on the part of the Starks toward Rhaegar for causing it to happen with Lyanna and Robert would not be something unexpected. It maybe that it is a simple case of Brandon believing his sister was kidnapped, but we don't need that to be the case to explain his behavior.

[Rinso]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1720513' date='Mar 15 2009, 22.39']The [i]reaction[/i] to breaking the marriage contract is not the same, but in both cases a marriage contract is broken. All I'm saying is that we know from the Frey example that it is a very big deal to have such an agreement broken, and anger on the part of the Starks toward Rhaegar for causing it to happen with Lyanna and Robert would not be something unexpected. It maybe that it is a simple case of Brandon believing his sister was kidnapped, but we don't need that to be the case to explain his behavior.[/quote]
The case is not the same, because with the Freys the marriage contract was broken by one of the parties involved, while with Lyanna and Rhaegar, Rhaegar was a third party who was not involved in any way. Besides, a simple kidnapping is not equal to the breaking of a marriage contract, and actually it has nothing to do with it. It would have been a case of breaking if Rhaegar had married Lyanna [i]and [/i]that was common knowledge to Brandon, if you want to explain his anger with the breaking of a marriage contract.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1720515' date='Mar 15 2009, 22.46']The case is not the same, because with the Freys the marriage contract was broken by one of the parties involved, while with Lyanna and Rhaegar, Rhaegar was a third party who was not involved in any way. Besides, a simple kidnapping is not equal to the breaking of a marriage contract, and actually it has nothing to do with it. It would have been a case of breaking if Rhaegar had married Lyanna [i]and [/i]that was common knowledge to Brandon, if you want to explain his anger with the breaking of a marriage contract.[/quote]

You're right they are not the same. The have similarities but are not identical - which is what I've been saying all along. Do you get that the breaking of a marriage contract causes anger in both cases?
Do you get that Brandon's anger could be caused by this same thing that causes the anger of the Freys? We can spend all night listing what things are different, and we could agree on most of them, but the point is what is similar.

[Rinso]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1720573' date='Mar 16 2009, 00.24']Do you get that Brandon's anger could be caused by this same thing that causes the anger of the Freys? We can spend all night listing what things are different, and we could agree on most of them, but the point is what is similar.[/quote]
Absolutely not. You have to assume that Brandon had knowledge of a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, if he is to be angry by the same thing that angered the Freys. If he knew or suspected that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that would lead to a different kind of anger that has nothing to do with marriage contracts.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1720580' date='Mar 16 2009, 00.37']If he knew or suspected that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that would lead to a different kind of anger that has nothing to do with marriage contracts.[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand "different kinds of anger" here, beyond intensity and having a different source. Regardless, it's worth noting that kidnapping the member of a great house is apparently an adequate affront to start a war, as shown by Cat's siezing of Tyrion.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1720587' date='Mar 16 2009, 01.49']I'm not sure I understand "different kinds of anger" here, beyond intensity and having a different source. Regardless, it's worth noting that kidnapping the member of a great house is apparently an adequate affront to start a war, as shown by Cat's siezing of Tyrion.[/quote]
"Kind" was the wrong word. I should have written "cause". And there is no arguing that the kidnapping the member of a great house is a huge deal, but that has nothing to do with the breaking of the marriage contrcat between Lyanna and Robert like SFDanny suggested. If Brandon thought that Rhaegar had kidnapped (and/or raped, cause that [i]could [/i]break the contract, I think), he wouldn't be angry because the deal between the Starks and Robert was spoiled, but because Rhaegar laid hands on his sister.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1720580' date='Mar 16 2009, 00.37']Absolutely not. You have to assume that Brandon had knowledge of a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, if he is to be angry by the same thing that angered the Freys. If he knew or suspected that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that would lead to a different kind of anger that has nothing to do with marriage contracts.[/quote]
No, you don't. Whether Lyanna and Rhaegar are married is unimportant to this point. The contract that is disrupted is between House Stark and House Baratheon. They both are [i]honor bound[/i] by the betrothal. Rhaegar's, and possibly Lyanna's if she went willingly, actions are ruinous to the honor of both Houses. It's a slap in the face to the traditional rights of each House to decide to whom their children marry. It tells them both their expressed wishes are subordinate to those the royal house. And, yes, in all this there are similarities with the Freys and their grievance with the royal house of Stark when Robb is the King in the North. Not the same, but very important similarities. Why important? Because the slap at the honor of House Stark by Rhaegar's action, could explain the cause of his anger regardless of whether he really thinks Lyanna was kidnapped. To put it simply, Brandon could well have shown up at King's Landing yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die knowing full well that his sister ran away with him of her own free will. His action and his anger can be explained by the dishonor an elopement would cause House Stark, and not his concern for his sister.

Now, to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying Brandon knew of any such elopement. Brandon could be motived by a mixture of both concern for his sister, real or imagined, AND concern for his House honor. He could be motivated by only one or the other. The point I'm trying to make, and what keeps getting obscured in discussions about the differences between the Starks and the Freys, is that the Stark's reaction in this case COULD be more similar to the Frey's than we know. The Frey's anger shows the importance of House rights in this matter and respect for the betrothal contracts made between Houses. It is therefore wrong to use Brandon's anger as proof of anything concerning whether or not Rhaegar did anything dishonorable to Lyanna.

[Rinso]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1720599' date='Mar 16 2009, 01.13']No, you don't. Whether Lyanna and Rhaegar are married is unimportant to this point. The contract that is disrupted is between House Stark and House Baratheon. They both are [i]honor bound[/i] by the betrothal. Rhaegar's, and possibly Lyanna's if she went willingly, actions are ruinous to the honor of both Houses. It's a slap in the face to the traditional rights of each House to decide to whom their children marry. It tells them both their expressed wishes are subordinate to those the royal house. And, yes, in all this there are similarities with the Freys and their grievance with the royal house of Stark when Robb is the King in the North. Not the same, but very important similarities. Why important? Because the slap at the honor of House Stark by Rhaegar's action, could explain the cause of his anger regardless of whether he really thinks Lyanna was kidnapped. To put it simply, Brandon could well have shown up at King's Landing yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die knowing full well that his sister ran away with him of her own free will. His action and his anger can be explained by the dishonor an elopement would cause House Stark, and not his concern for his sister.[/quote]
But the contract is not disrupted because of the kidnapping. If anything, it gives a cause to both House Stark and House Baratheon to be angry with Rhaegar (or even House Targaryen as a whole), but not to terminate the marriage contract between themselves.
If Brandon thought that Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar (which would explain his rage), that could disrupt the contract between the Starks and Robert, but based on how the Starks are not a coldhearted family that thinks only of the politics (like the Freys), I'd say that in such scenario Brandon would be angry because Rhaegar hurt his sister first and foremost. That's why he went and tried to make it personal by demanding the death of Rhaegar. He did not went to present a grievance in front of Aerys (or his Hand at the time), nor did he tried to call the banners of House Stark and declare a war (which he probably couldn't have done, since Rickard was the acting Lord of Winterfell at the time, but there is no mention that Brandon tried to contact him anyway). No, he went to King's Landing with a couple of friends and demanded that Rhaegar should come out and die. It reeks of an issue made personal.

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1720599' date='Mar 16 2009, 01.13']It is therefore wrong to use Brandon's anger as proof of anything concerning whether or not Rhaegar did anything dishonorable to Lyanna.[/quote]
Brandon's anger could be used as proof that there was something fishy about the whole thing that we don't know yet. He was someone who, [i]separately from Robert[/i], came to the conclusion that whatever Rhaegar did, he had to kill him for it. Cause, okay, I can accept that Robert deluded himself, but when two separate people come to such conclusion about the situation, I'd say that it's not impossible that something may have gone wrong.

[bacchys]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1720338' date='Mar 15 2009, 18.31']You mean this one, Winter Crow? Not very persuasive. The idea Lyanna is clutching the crown of roses when she dies despite being raped by Rhaegar doesn't hold much water, imho. If the roses suggest Rhaegar to Lyanna it would make more sense if she insisted Ned burn them, not that she would die holding on to them. Sorry, for being a nuisance. ;)[/quote]

Stockholm syndrome, anyone?

That Rhaegar may have raped Lyanna at one point doesn't necessitate that she wouldn't love him or hold the grudge later.

I see Winter Crow's point as being Rhaegar's general character doesn't override the possibility of anomalous behaviour on his part, especially if that behaviour in his mind is in furtherance of a higher cause.

Akin, say, to a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who might view abusing women as foul behaviour and who definitely sees attacking a Targaryen as an attack on his oath, but ignoring it when the perpetrator is the King.

[Edward the Great]

[quote name='bacchys' post='1720692' date='Mar 16 2009, 05.52']That Rhaegar may have raped Lyanna at one point doesn't necessitate that she wouldn't love him or hold the grudge later.[/quote]

And monkey's might fly out of my butt.

[quote]especially if that behaviour in his mind is in furtherance of a higher cause.[/quote]

Rape for a higher cause? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

[quote]Akin, say, to a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who might view abusing women as foul behaviour and who definitely sees attacking a Targaryen as an attack on his oath, but ignoring it when the perpetrator is the King.[/quote]

Gerold Hightower wasn't the one doing the abuse. he was justifying his own inaction, not justifying his self indulgence.

[snake]

There's a nugget of info in the Jon chapter from ADwD that, IMO, leaves open the possibility that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

SPOILER: ADwD Sample

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon, he remembered. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmurred by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds after the battle. Jon had been shocked when they were repeated to him. "It was his fever talking," he had said, but Maester Aemon had demurred. [b][i]"There is power in a king's blood, Jon," he warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."[/i] [/b] The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='snake' post='1721230' date='Mar 16 2009, 14.28']

SPOILER: ADwD Sample

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon, he remembered. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmurred by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds after the battle. Jon had been shocked when they were repeated to him. "It was his fever talking," he had said, but Maester Aemon had demurred. [b][i]"There is power in a king's blood, Jon," he warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."[/i] [/b] The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

[/quote]
An alternative explanation has been offered for that, namely

SPOILER: aDwD

that King Aegon V, who Barristan listed as one of the Targaryens with much goodness, attempted human sacrifice of one of his own family members to hatch dragon eggs through blood magic at Summerhal.

Or of, course, it could be just about anything. It was a pretty wide open comment.

As to Brandon's reaction to the shame and dishonour house Stark suffered because of Rhaegar, I don't see why he wouldn't have been enraged if Lyanna went voluntarily. The rage would be spread out between the two of them, rather than viewing her as a pure victim, but he would still be mad at Rhaegar as a slick seducer who caused disgrace to his family, I think.

In any event, it's not clear that Brandon had all the facts of the case. Even if he thought Lyanna went involuntarily, it doesn't mean that she did. I'd say his reaction is very weak evidence, since he may [i]not[/i] have thought so, and it doesn't prove much even if he did.

[snake]

[quote]Or of, course, it could be just about anything. It was a pretty wide open comment.[/quote]

Exactly. Thus people who think that Rhaegar was too good to do anything bad might be in for a rude awakening. A man as obsessive and single-minded as he was would do just about anything to "save the world". We see his cousin Stannis evolving in much the same way.

[Phoenix-torn]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1721279' date='Mar 16 2009, 15.58']As to Brandon's reaction to the shame and dishonour house Stark suffered because of Rhaegar, I don't see why he wouldn't have been enraged if Lyanna went voluntarily. The rage would be spread out between the two of them, rather than viewing her as a pure victim, but he would still be mad at Rhaegar as a slick seducer who caused disgrace to his family, I think.

In any event, it's not clear that Brandon had all the facts of the case. Even if he thought Lyanna went involuntarily, it doesn't mean that she did. I'd say his reaction is very weak evidence, since he may [i]not[/i] have thought so, and it doesn't prove much even if he did.[/quote]

I agree. Brandon seems to be characterized as rash and impulsive. In the story of the laughing tree he's the "wild wolf." He heard that Rhaegar took his sister and reacted. Whether his information was right or wrong doesn't matter much.

[Antonius Pius]

Since we don't really have any evidence either way, this entire thread is moot... but it's a fun kind of moot so I'll chip in too.

I've never really thought much about R+L to be honest, but I must say I find Rinso's premiss rather convincing. I'd expect Brandon to rage if he thought Lyanna had "eloped" with Rhaegar, but to foster a murderous rage from the Trident (or wherever it was that heard about R taking J) to the Red Keep suggests he's [i]really[/i] out of it. Calling for Rhaegar to "come out and die", with a king around who's known to be short some marbles is so monumentally stupid that I'm willing to believe he thought Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

Absconding with a heiress and disrupting marital alliances of two great houses will certainly generate anger, but from what we have I don't think Brandon would hold to either Walder Frey's attitude or Tywn Lannisters. I think he's genuinely enraged about the slight to his sisters honour, and the ill treatment he probably supposed she had suffered/was still suffering.

I don't know who suggested it upthread, but Rheagar kidnapping a Stark heiress to rob a Baratheon-Lord of his bride is soo damn stupid that Rhaegar had to be either a) desperate, or b) beginning to suffer from the Targaryen madness. I find myself more and more inclined towards the latter.