Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[iheartseverus]

[quote name='robs hand' post='1758334' date='Apr 17 2009, 12.47']a cripple and a monster[/quote]

Charming.

[Sirius]

I think that it takes a very large stretch of the imagination to see this as anything more than poetic wording by a cripple and a monster, but hey thats just me

Yes, yes it is.... :)

[LordNedsHead]

You guys are probably right. Its most likely just a decription of the smoke. Albeit a very clumsy one. One the other hand there is some evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Aplomb]

It doesn't really seem that clumsy a description to me, even if it is just smoke. I picture a general smoky, sooty haze at ground level, and a more solid column of smoke and fire rising high in the distance.

[LordNedsHead]

"...he saw a great winged snake who's roar was a river of flame." Seems too literal. As meticulous as Martin is, I would think he could have said something like "...he saw snake with fiery wings who's roar was a river of flame" if it was nothing more than a fireball. If the dragon was smoke it could read something like. Through the ash and smoke he glimpsed a darker form. A great winged snake billowed blackness across the sky. Its breath was a river of flame." I realize I'm splitting hairs with GRRMs writing here. The guy isn't perfect as good as he is. There is just something so literal about the description that is had bugged me for three days since I noticed it lol

[cybroleach]

"...he saw a great winged snake who's roar was a river of flame." Seems too literal. As meticulous as Martin is, I would think he could have said something like "...he saw snake with fiery wings who's roar was a river of flame" if it was nothing more than a fireball. If the dragon was smoke it could read something like. Through the ash and smoke he glimpsed a darker form. A great winged snake billowed blackness across the sky. Its breath was a river of flame." I realize I'm splitting hairs with GRRMs writing here. The guy isn't perfect as good as he is. There is just something so literal about the description that is had bugged me for three days since I noticed it lol

For someone soo picky on wording you might notice the start of that sentence starts with "The smoke and ash clouded his eyes". The wolf can barely see here.

[LordNedsHead]

Yet he manages to make out a shape behind the smoke that is clear enough to be defined as a snake with wings? Odd.

[iheartseverus]

Yet he manages to make out a shape behind the smoke that is clear enough to be defined as a snake with wings? Odd.

Yes, a snake with wings, whose roar was a river of flame. I repeat, sounds pretty dragonish to me, particularly since how could a wolf envision a snake with wings unless that's exactly what he was seeing?

[tsantsa]

Wolf vision is as good as humans in daylight but much better than a humans at night. Remember its very smoky probably blocking light of day so the wolf is using it's better than human night vision to see at this moment. And remember we are talking about a direwolf here, which by all accounts is a more effective version of the standard wolf.

I make this point to illustrate that if there were humans hanging around the smoky ruins of the keep, they would not have been able to see it because it was so dark from the smoke.

[Ser Thomas]

This is a charming little theory, but you would think, after all the time that has transpired since the razing of Winterfell in ACoK, someone would have seen this dragon? I mean, if this was a hybernating, mature dragon, it would be huge. Especially since GRRM makes it clear through the dragon skulls in the Red Keep that dragons, over a period of roughly 300 years, greatly decreased in size.

So if there was some jolly hybernating dragon underneath Winterfell for all those years, you would expect it to be gargantuan. I understand that the North is large, remote, and sparsely populated, but come on, not one person saw it? Plus, for those of you wetting yourselfs over the prospect that a dragon provides the warm steam that heats Winterfell, GRRM states that the castle was built over quite a few hot springs. Works for me.

Now, as for there being a dragon egg in Winterfell that was hatched during the fire, that seems an even greater stretch with less textual evidence behind it than the hybernating dragon theory.

For all we know, what GRRM is alluding to with Summer's dragon-through-smoke vision is that Ramsay Bolton is really Aerys Targaryean's bastard, and that Roose Bolton took him in to protect him after his fathers murder :eek:. So, the vision symbolized that Winterfell would be raized by Targs. :P

[iheartseverus]

Plus, for those of you wetting yourselfs over the prospect

My, my, what a courteous first post. You must be really...special. How did we manage without you?

[Ser Thomas]

My, my, what a courteous first post. You must be really...special. How did we manage without you?

I'm sure you managed just fine, Mr. Snape. Please, call me the "anti-crackpot".

[Sirius]

I'm sure you managed just fine, Mr. Snape. Please, call me the "anti-crackpot".

Read a bit closer.... iheartseverus isn't a dude, and therefore is not a Mr.

[iheartseverus]

Read a bit closer.... iheartseverus isn't a dude, and therefore is not a Mr.

Thanks, my friend.

:cheers:

But, this one's not worth the bother, really.

[Winter Crow]

Um, isn't this getting a bit off-track? There's no need to start lashing out against each other.

That said, I have to agree with Joffrey the Wise. Trust me, this breaks my heart, but there's simply to little evidence that a dragon could have been hiding down there, and it simply seems to weird that it just vanished again in a heartbeat.

Although it scars me greatly, I have to admit, it was just a stupid wolf trying to be poetic. Bloody critter...

[Sirius]

Um, isn't this getting a bit off-track? There's no need to start lashing out against each other.

That said, I have to agree with Joffrey the Wise. Trust me, this breaks my heart, but there's simply to little evidence that a dragon could have been hiding down there, and it simply seems to weird that it just vanished again in a heartbeat.

Although it scars me greatly, I have to admit, it was just a stupid wolf trying to be poetic. Bloody critter...

Alright well I'm still waffling on this one, and the stupid wolf argument has been made previously. However, and I hate to nitpick, but really, if it was just a stupid wolf, wouldn't it have stayed with an even more crude description than a "winged snake" or whatever it was. It's a stretch, but does a wolf know what wings are? This could easily just be inconsistency in vocabulary by GRRM, but at the same time, I like to think that it's a hint :)

[Crow's Eye]

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. He mentions smoke and ash first, THEN he mentions the Dragon separately. Combine that with Mel's certainty that there is a Dragon somewhere in Westeros, asleep in stone, that can be awoken with Kingly blood and fire. Then add in the references to a Dragon sleeping beneath Winterfell. When that's all added together, consider the age of Winterfell, it's origins, and the statements about how Dragons are Fire made Flesh. Toss in a heaping helping of the rather cryptic "There must Always be a Stark in Winterfell". In my mind, if it does not point to a literal Dragon rising from the ashes of Winterfell, then it's either another of GRRM's supremely well seasoned Red Herring Filets, or it's a MAJOR frack up!

But where is the kingly blood? Robb's not dead at this point. Bran didn't really die. Old Nan? Don't think so. Mel has burned a few people 'round the world, but we don't have evidence that any of them were king's blood. Renly or Greyjoy? Both might have been dead at this point - hard to tell - but how could their deaths trigger this event?

Remember even the Targaryens, who, you know, have a bit of a history with dragons, have been until recently unable to birth new dragons, and even the attempt results in tragedy (Egg V). So now because a few Boltons sack Winterfell and randomly set a few fires, an 8000 year old dragon wakes up, destroys a tower, and flees without anyone seeing it? I don't buy it. Nor do I believe it was a newly hatched dragon either - does anyone believe that Dany's dragons (even Drogon, who was often compared to The Black Dread) could have erupted through and destroyed part of a castle shortly after being born?

Too many loose ends to this theory, in my opinion, and tying them up requires answers well outside the physics and reality of the world GRRM has created. I think summer was seeing shapes in the smoke, and nothing more. Of course, this doesn't preclude the possibility that there IS a stone dragon waiting to be awoken, and summer's "vision" and Osha's comment about waking dragons may well be alluding to future events. But if there is a dragon that's been sleeping under Winterfell for 8000 years, it will take more than a couple treacherous Boltons setting fires to wake it.

[Ser Thomas]

Read a bit closer.... iheartseverus isn't a dude, and therefore is not a Mr.

My humble apologies, iheartseverus. I was responding more towards your avatar than your comments in general.

But, this one's not worth the bother, really.

You don't really mean that, do you? :|

[LordNedsHead]

But where is the kingly blood? Robb's not dead at this point. Bran didn't really die. Old Nan? Don't think so. Mel has burned a few people 'round the world, but we don't have evidence that any of them were king's blood. Renly or Greyjoy? Both might have been dead at this point - hard to tell - but how could their deaths trigger this event?

Remember even the Targaryens, who, you know, have a bit of a history with dragons, have been until recently unable to birth new dragons, and even the attempt results in tragedy (Egg V). So now because a few Boltons sack Winterfell and randomly set a few fires, an 8000 year old dragon wakes up, destroys a tower, and flees without anyone seeing it? I don't buy it. Nor do I believe it was a newly hatched dragon either - does anyone believe that Dany's dragons (even Drogon, who was often compared to The Black Dread) could have erupted through and destroyed part of a castle shortly after being born?

Too many loose ends to this theory, in my opinion, and tying them up requires answers well outside the physics and reality of the world GRRM has created. I think summer was seeing shapes in the smoke, and nothing more. Of course, this doesn't preclude the possibility that there IS a stone dragon waiting to be awoken, and summer's "vision" and Osha's comment about waking dragons may well be alluding to future events. But if there is a dragon that's been sleeping under Winterfell for 8000 years, it will take more than a couple treacherous Boltons setting fires to wake it.

I'm gonna hypothesis here to answer your question about kingly blood. Perhaps it was the fire that woke the dragon. Maybe you need the kingly blood to control it. Therefore if the main theory of this thread is true, there is a huge dragon flying around in the North. The same area where there happens to be a King and a Red Woman looking for a dragon to sacrifice another king's bastard to.

[The Resa]

:o ....

Oh... By the moon... How did I not ever, EVER, notice this? HOW?! ARGH! My mind is bursting! Bobling! This is soooooo freakin' weird!

Alright, sorry for that... Slight overreaction. This is amazing! The idea of a Dragon providing the hot spring warmth of Winterfell is freakin' awesome. .

Well, if this is true, and let's face it, we don't have a lot of evidence, the plot just became a thousand times more interresting to me. Re-read ACoK I must!

Really? Because I think it sounds a little ridiculous that a dragon could be living under Winterfell and no one knows about it. I mean, what does it eat?