Jeyne Westerling, escaped?

[Indigo Cloak]

One point to mention: if Jeyne had somehow escaped without her mother's aid or permission, would her mother not now have a motive to risk punishment by deceiving Jaime if she hoped he wouldn't find out that she let Robb's wife - with the potential to have his heir or "his heir"- escape through negligence?

[xDestructionx]

exactly

[Guest Other-in-law]

One point to mention: if Jeyne had somehow escaped without her mother's aid or permission, would her mother not now have a motive to risk punishment by deceiving Jaime if she hoped he wouldn't find out that she let Robb's wife - with the potential to have his heir or "his heir"- escape through negligence?

Conceivably, but which is likely to incur more Lannister wrath; being open and admitting her distraught daughter ran away and imploring that they bring her back to her loving mother safe and sound...or being discovered to have tried to dupe them with a bizarre cover-up? The latter is much more treacherous.

[BoiledLeather]

The way Jeyne is described in her meeting with Jaime seemed fishy to me too. There is NO WAY that GRRM just forgot that Jeyne had good hips earlier. Also, she doesnt sound pretty enough to be Jeyne. This is no accident. I don't know what it means, or what the mother is up to, but it will come up again. I'd be willing to bet that she is an impostor. Maybe the mother is an impostor too? In any case, it will be great for the story if Jeyne escaped with Robs son and heir.

Good thing Jon didnt take Stannis up on his offer to make him a Stark. There are an awful lot of legit Starks scattered around.

[cravenravenkeeper]

The way Jeyne is described in her meeting with Jaime seemed fishy to me too. There is NO WAY that GRRM just forgot that Jeyne had good hips earlier. Also, she doesnt sound pretty enough to be Jeyne. This is no accident. I don't know what it means, or what the mother is up to, but it will come up again. I'd be willing to bet that she is an impostor. Maybe the mother is an impostor too? In any case, it will be great for the story if Jeyne escaped with Robs son and heir.

Good thing Jon didnt take Stannis up on his offer to make him a Stark. There are an awful lot of legit Starks scattered around.

yea. Honestly if Robbs storyline just ended at the Freys...that'd just be shitty. Oh look here is this prodigy military commander! Oh he fell in love and it cost him a powerful ally..who killed him. The end? C'mon no way. I really really hope Jeyne pops up with a baby Robb.

That said as much as I want it..I don't know. Whoever this impostor is she seemed to be good at keeping her cover. And other people know who Jeyne is and what she looks lke-and I have trouble thinking ALL of them would just go along with it.

Or it could be the Jeyne just isn't showing yet. Lets say it was 2 months between Robbs leaving and Jamie got there. Those loose mourning clothes would hide any stomach growth she had.

[Guest Other-in-law]

There is NO WAY that GRRM just forgot that Jeyne had good hips earlier.

However the contrast between the viewpoints of differing characters is..well, pretty much the primary structural feature of the storytelling in the series. ;)

[the silent speaker]

I think Happy Ent worked out the timeline and it was something like six months. If she has anything to show, she's showing.

[Errant Bard]

Four months, in my estimation. Not that it matters, since the only time Jeyne's mother would lie would be if the Jeyne she gives her doesn't contradict her directly by being pregnant.

[3idcrow]

There is NO WAY that GRRM just forgot that Jeyne had good hips earlier. Also, she doesnt sound pretty enough to be Jeyne.

We have to remember who is talking. Cersei is the only woman in Jaime's life and as such she is an ultimate basis for comparison: everyone who does not look like her is not pretty enough, anyone who is more slim seems to him too skinny. This is how I see it.

[thotk]

Jeyne's mother is a pretty terrible ally, she would of known of the Twins abush (or at least part) so I doubt she was ever really on Robb's side. She could of ruined the Frey's plans pretty easily. If Robb knew what to expect at the Twins he could have taken it pretty easily when he first met with Lord Frey.

[cravenravenkeeper]

Jeyne's mother is a pretty terrible ally, she would of known of the Twins abush (or at least part) so I doubt she was ever really on Robb's side. She could of ruined the Frey's plans pretty easily. If Robb knew what to expect at the Twins he could have taken it pretty easily when he first met with Lord Frey.

No, she specifically mentions how she wished she had known because on of her sons went with Robb. Jamie asks about him to the Freys who confirm that he died. I don't think she knew.

[3idcrow]

No, she specifically mentions how she wished she had known because on of her sons went with Robb. Jamie asks about him to the Freys who confirm that he died. I don't think she knew.

She knew. She underestimated the scale of the slaughter but she knew that Robb is going to die. She negotiated a new marriage for Jeyne before RW, so she knew that Jeyne will be a widow.

[Edward the Great]

It's not arguable, it's flat-out proven. She confessed!

With the way the characters in this story flat out lie through their teeth that means about as much as an Ode to green putty stuck between my toes.

What the characters say doesn't mean so much in ASOIAF. What matters is what we are shown in the narrative.

[wakiki]

She didn't know about the Red Wedding. Why would Tywin tell her about the RW? She had no part to play. He merely told her (or implied) that he planned to have Robb dead (that is obvious) and to give (or continue giving, if it was her idea) moon tea to Jeyne.

[Ser Howsmelly]

With the way the characters in this story flat out lie through their teeth that means about as much as an Ode to green putty stuck between my toes.

What the characters say doesn't mean so much in ASOIAF. What matters is what we are shown in the narrative.

What we are shown in the narrative is also heavily dependent on the perspective/POV of the characters. It is all about interpreting the elements that we are presented with.

[Ser Selmy]

So I'm sure the debate will rage on long after I have thrown my two cents into the peanut gallery but here we go.

First off I will go so far as to say I believe that the Jeyne Westerling Jaime captures is not the Jeyne Westerling Robb Stark married. The first point I will make is that we have a very shifty character in Sybel Spicer as Ser Kevan Lannister points out when speaking to the newly made Small Council and a few other notables there to speak of Joffrey's wedding to Maergery.

("A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybel Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybel's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some old woman he'd brought back from the east. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

--ASoS pg 271

This establishes Sybels tie to Maegi, Maggie the Frog who appears in AFfC. Maegi is a very powerful seer as shown in Cercei's chapter. This means that Jeyne is her great grand-daughter. I only establish this to show Jeyne's background.

Now I go to Catelyn's descriptions of Jeyne Westerling at Riverrun when Robb brings her there after the Battle of The Crag. Then I will go to her later description when Jeyne comes to her for help with being a wife to Robb Stark.

(Queen. Yes, this pretty little girl is a queen, I must remember that. She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing a child at least.)

--ASoS pg 194

(The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb said. And good hips, which might be more important.)

--ASoS pg 284

Now I will quote Jaime's perspective from AFfC. Which varies largely from Catelyn's

(She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for. Her face was puffy, and there was a scab on her forehead, half hidden by a lock of brown hair.)

--AFfC pg 944

I know that with an author that uses his fans to keep continuity and timelines straight it is hard to adamantly say that this isn't a mistake but from what I have noticed is that when there is a glaring difference in descriptions it is ON PURPOSE. GRRM is very good at throwing little hints into his books like this. Also Jeyne's mother Sybel Spicer attempts to slap Jeyne and says she gave Jeyne the scab on her forehead for attempting to keep the crown Robb gave her. This does not sound like the way she treats Jeyne in earlier chapters. The only thing that seems to be the same in the descriptions of Jeyne is her brown curls. It is arguable that Jaime is always viewing and comparing people to Cercei but he has never been so glaringly inaccurate. Look at any of his chapters there are women in, Jaime does say that none compare to Cercei but he also describes them accurately. Also he has lost his love of Cercei by now since it is only slightly later when he burns the letter she sends him, refusing to come save her. Next, Sybel Spicer seems to be working with the Lannisters but she could not have had fore-knowledge of Robb's red wedding before Tywin Lannister made his deal with Walder Frey. Walder hates the Lannisters just as much as any house and he chose not to help them in Robert Baratheons battle against Aerys Targaryen as Jaime points out when thinking of Ser Cleos father and how the Lannisters got the worst part of the deal. The only explanation of Sybel knowing before would be if she had her grandmothers power which there isn't even a hint of. She also says clearly to Jaime that she didn't know what was going to happen on pg945 AFfC. So Sybel Spicer honestly threw her cause with Robb's. When it became apparent Robb's kingdom was disintegrating she threw her lot in with the Lannisters again but did not want to get her daughter killed so she switched her out with someone threatened with worse than the obvious beating she had recieved. The Westerlings are described as over proud and ancient. Her escape route would also have been very dangerous but then if she escaped with the Blackfish she would be safe. Jeyne could not have escaped without Jaime's force noticing any other way. Also Lord Edmure seems too smug that the Blackfish escaped which in itself was no great victory... unless there was something he took with him.

So who could she be is the next question. But to that I have no answers, only ideas and until I compile them I will keep them in my head. This post is too long already...

[The Non-Human]

she knew that Robb is going to die.

That doesnt mean anything. Tywin probably commanded her to prevent the girl from getting pregnant, and promised a reward. Saying any more would have probably tempted the mother to betray the plan, and Tywin was too intelligent to not see that.

[Guest Other-in-law]

With the way the characters in this story flat out lie through their teeth that means about as much as an Ode to green putty stuck between my toes.

What the characters say doesn't mean so much in ASOIAF. What matters is what we are shown in the narrative.

Your Podiatric hygiene issues notwithstanding, I'm not sure if you're just using a poor example to make a general point, or if you actually believe that Sybel Spicer was innocent of the conspiracy against Robb. If the latter, it's utterly untenable. Her involvement was corroborated before we even learned of it. Tywin's contentment in the face of the Westerling/Spicer betrayal, the subsequent reward of Castamere to Ser Rolf, Jeyne's statement that her mother was giving her "fertility" potions, and, yes, her confession that she saw to it that Jeyne did not get pregnant on Tywin's instruction and negotiated for a new husband for Jeyne all make for an indisputable conclusion that she was very much part of the plot.

That the scope of the butchery was beyond her control and more than she (or Tywin, for that matter) anticipated, does nothing to change the fact that she deceived Robb (and probably her daughter as well) and knowingly sent him to his death in exchange for promises of advancement for her family.

SirSelmy

She also says clearly to Jaime that she didn't know what was going to happen on pg945 AFfC.

:rolleyes: No, read the entire passage not just the part that sounds like it supports your position. She clearly speaks of the "understanding" with Lord Tywin, and his instructions to her for Jeyne to not get pregnant. The only part she didn't know about was how bloody it would be and how much risk her son would be in. She knew damned well that Robb was dead meat.

So Sybel Spicer honestly threw her cause with Robb's.

This is like the new benchmark for wrongness.

[thotk]

If Cat didn't release Jaime would Lord Tywin ever have allowed the red wedding to happen? Knowing that Riverrun held his son?

[Errant Bard]

Yes, as it was set in motion before Jaime was released.