Guest Other-in-law Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I just think it odd that GRRM would have such a difference when the main description we get from Catelyn is that she had wide hips. Simply untrue. This is a classic example of re-imagining the text so that it states one's conclusion, rather than relying on the actual words. Cat never refers to Jeyne's hips as "wide", just as "good", though she does think of her as "slender", which jibes with Jaime's impression. I can't believe it is just a matter of the POV, can you show me a single example of Jaime doing this before? Jaime has formed impressions that differed from those of other people, certainly. He felt that bearing the Lothston shield would make everyone regard him neutrally, as a "no one". But that same shield inspires a strong negative reaction when Brienne carries it, since people remember the sordid crimes of the Lothston family.Not just comparing things to Cercei but differing from another characters descriptor?This isn't a Jaime example, but we have a very clear case of widely differing views on a female character's attractiveness with Arya. On the one hand, people give her charming names like "Horseface" and "Lumpyhead", but Ned startled her by saying she looked a lot like the beautiful Lyanna. Beauty and allure is something that varies quite a bit according to taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollum Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I hope the girl Jaime met is an impostor and the real Jeyne got away. I thought Robb was an idiot to throw away everything for her but it'd be cool if Jeyne showed up with a baby just as Jon/Bran/Rickon/Sansa/Arya was getting crowned King/Queen of the North. That'd really shake things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Silly Cat Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 This isn't a Jaime example, but we have a very clear case of widely differing views on a female character's attractiveness with Arya. On the one hand, people give her charming names like "Horseface" and "Lumpyhead", but Ned startled her by saying she looked a lot like the beautiful Lyanna. Beauty and allure is something that varies quite a bit according to taste.This is very true. I agree with you that no one is going to look the same to every single person. Saying that GRRM would have a warrior and a mother look at someone's hips the same way seems a bit implausible. I mean doesnt he make great pains to show different aspects of everything through the different character's opinions? For example how Sansa and Arya initially feel about Joffery. Sansa thinks he's beautiful and charming whereas Arya thinks he has wormy lips and is kind of a shithead and he certainly isnt being 2 people at once when he's around the both of them at the same time at Winterfell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward the Great Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 This isn't a Jaime example, but we have a very clear case of widely differing views on a female character's attractiveness with Arya. On the one hand, people give her charming names like "Horseface" and "Lumpyhead", but Ned startled her by saying she looked a lot like the beautiful Lyanna. Beauty and allure is something that varies quite a bit according to taste.I think this is a grotesque misinterpretation. I think he's simply pointing out that Arya is too young for most people to see how beautiful she will become. The Faceless Men asked if she wanted to become a courtesan - they know how beautiful she will become. They may even know that she will look like Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Silly Cat Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I think this is a grotesque misinterpretation. I think he's simply pointing out that Arya is too young for most people to see how beautiful she will become.But you understand what they're getting at by using that as an example. It really -isnt- the only time you could say that someone's perspective effected their judgment about something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I think this is a grotesque misinterpretation. I think he's simply pointing out that Arya is too young for most people to see how beautiful she will become.He's not saying she will look like Lyanna someday. He says "You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." Present tense.Honestly, it's astonishing that anyone could come away from this series without recognising how different things look from different character's perspectives. It's such a central aspect of the entire story, I don't even understand how anyone could view that interpretation as somehow controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadwolf Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 He's not saying she will look like Lyanna someday. He says "You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." Present tense.Honestly, it's astonishing that anyone could come away from this series without recognising how different things look from different character's perspectives. It's such a central aspect of the entire story, I don't even understand how anyone could view that interpretation as somehow controversial.Leving the narrow/good hips issue aside for a while,I must admit that the above statement is a life-like one.the link below gives another example which immediately crossed my mind after reading the previous post. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/1994/Human's Individual perception is beyond of any doubt a tricky stuff. Same goes for understanding I believe. And perhaps that's why we have had so much fun here in these boards.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Silly Cat Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Putting the hips clue (or non-clue) aside, there isnt very much that Jeyne could do if she was both escaped and pregnant. She could/would be mostly by herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think this is a grotesque misinterpretation. I think he's simply pointing out that Arya is too young for most people to see how beautiful she will become. The Faceless Men asked if she wanted to become a courtesan - they know how beautiful she will become. They may even know that she will look like Lyanna. Really?Arya is only two years younger than Sansa, right? Thus making Arya at about the age that Sansa was at the onset of the story, whereupon she always elicited compliments about her beauty.It's a little freaky and borderline pervy, sure, but there you have it. Even Gendry called Arya pretty when she was alll cleaned and groomed by Lady Smallwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 But Arya does not have the same type of looks as Sansa. I see no contradiction: Arya-at-nine looks like Lyanna-at-nine. Lyanna-at-sixteen was drooled over by pretty much everybody not closely related. It does not follow that Lyanna-at-nine -- and by extension Arya-at-nine -- had grown into her eventual looks. Particularly with the tomboyish activities Arya tended to favor -- things which would tend to disaccentuate prettiness, especially to a decidedly nontomboyish sister who doesn't get along very well with her and whose self-identity is strongly tied to prettiness -- that could be enough to earn her nicknames like "horseface" at nine which would be inapt at sixteen (if they were ever truly merited to begin with). And indeed we see people beginning to refer to Arya-at-eleven as pretty (not only Gendry, Lady Smallwood herself does it too); Arya doesn't expect it because she's not accustomed to having prettiness, but I think it is clear that she is getting prettier as she gets older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 However, OiL's point stands, Neds tells her that she is pretty, present tense, less than six month in the story, not that she will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Selmy Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Also Arya and Lyanna are much alike in personality as Ned points out when he finds out about needle. Arya just doesn't appear very lady like and she is constantly covered in scabs and grime. The thing is that she cleans up nice but runs around like a ragamuffin so not many people get to see her beauty being as she doesn't yet have tits and an ass whereas Sansa. But this is getting a little off topic and we should prob start talking about Jeyne again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Brother Clegane Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Really?Arya is only two years younger than Sansa, right? Thus making Arya at about the age that Sansa was at the onset of the story, whereupon she always elicited compliments about her beauty.It's a little freaky and borderline pervy, sure, but there you have it."Whats a pederast Walter?""Shut the fuck up Donny."Couldn't help myself :D I'm thinking that the game of thrones lends itself to almost any outcome, especially when the queen has an opportunity to produce a dead king's heir. Perhaps Sibel and Jeyne are playing both sides, seeing what they can garner from the Lions and hold the Wolf king in reserve in case the Lannister deal dies on the vine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik of Hazelfield Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Have anyone yet come up with a plausible explanation for why Lady Sibel would betray Robb and conspire against him, but at the same time play double and betray Tywin as well? The good hips/narrow hips argument would have been compelling enough if there was actually a complete theory for it to support, but I haven't yet seen one. Sibel playing double-agent makes no sense whatsoever. Keeping Robb's heir "in reserve" seems like an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do. We all know how Tywin deals with traitors, and the risk of being caught is overwhelming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadwolf Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 We all know how Tywin deals with traitors, and the risk of being caught is overwhelming.Just for fun and the sake of arguments - If Tywin is the only Sibel's problem and if she had some fortune-telling abilities she has no one to afraid now and she had none in the near past.Most freakin idea would be to accept that Sybel organized Joffrey's dead. Then Tyrion's accusation, the Martell's failure in ToC and eventually the patricide. And you see here comes the King... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thotk Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 QUESTION: The Lannister's kinda suck at keeping track of their promises, supposedly Littlefinger is the Lord of Harrenhal & Lord Paramount of the Trident...is that not also the title they promised Lord Frey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 QUESTION: The Lannister's kinda suck at keeping track of their promises, supposedly Littlefinger is the Lord of Harrenhal & Lord Paramount of the Trident...is that not also the title they promised Lord Frey?Nope. Emmon assumed that he would be Lord Paramount because he was getting Riverrun, but he was never promised it. It's more that Emmon Frey sucks at reading comprehension.Erik of Hazelfield has the right of it. The hips question could have been a tip that something was up if we had even the slightest hint from any other source that Sybel was double crossing the Lannisters and it made the tiniest bit of sense (compare to the many different red flags that we got that the Red Wedding was coming). But we don't and it doesn't, so the fallback explanation of different POVs suffices completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravenravenkeeper Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Have anyone yet come up with a plausible explanation for why Lady Sibel would betray Robb and conspire against him, but at the same time play double and betray Tywin as well? The good hips/narrow hips argument would have been compelling enough if there was actually a complete theory for it to support, but I haven't yet seen one. Sibel playing double-agent makes no sense whatsoever. Keeping Robb's heir "in reserve" seems like an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do. We all know how Tywin deals with traitors, and the risk of being caught is overwhelming.I think people just want to imagine Robb having an Heir other then Jon. It could be that sibil simply is trying to improve the standing of her house. Tyrwins grattitude would only go so far, but with a baby Robb she'd get more leverage. But I'm inclined to agree that as tempting an it is as an idea its probably a false flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthrone Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 However, OiL's point stands, Neds tells her that she is pretty, present tense, less than six month in the story, not that she will be.Maybe Ned's just full of shit. He can hardly tell her she's ugly, can he? Ned has no huge problem with white lies ("And even the lie was...not without honor"), and most people don't think of their kids as unattractive anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Maybe Ned's just full of shit. He can hardly tell her she's ugly, can he? Ned has no huge problem with white lies ("And even the lie was...not without honor")Why think so? Because everyone's standards for beauty must be identical? Was Lady Smallwood full of shit too?and most people don't think of their kids as unattractive anyway.in which case his statement would be sincere, and he would not be full of shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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