Petyr Baelish

[emmank]

Just got home from work. :smoking:

I don't think he originally had designs on her over Winterfell. In AGOT, Sansa thought that he looked at her like she had no clothes on, and in every single encounter with him she felt creeped out and uncomfortable.

Also, Ser Dontos began meeting with her (at LF's behest) towards the beginning of ACOK. At that point, there was no reason to think that she would become heir to Winterfell...Robb Stark was alive, kicking, and defeating Lannisters, Bran and Rickon were safe in Winterfell. It seems pretty clear to me that LF became sexually obsessed with Sansa from the moment he met her and wanted to kidnap her with the idea of seduction/molestation in mind. It had nothing to do with Winterfell originally...that she became heir to Winterfell was just icing on the cake and at that point he incorporated her into his political plans.

Thank you

I know Petyr is a political mastermind, but people are thinking too much in these terms WRT Sansa. and like I said upthread, that Harry the Heir garbage is just more BS. He wants her to want him, and does not care if she is hurt in the process. I am not sure he even cares much about Winterfell, in the grand scheme of things. The north never had much to do with the Southron court anyway. Plus now it is winter, and he must surely know that marching the Vale army north during the winter is not going to happen. He is telling Sansa this Winterfell stuff so she will believe he has her best interests at heart, and when she is disappointed and/or hurt by Harry, he'll be there to pick up the pieces. It's quite clever really, though very nasty and manipulative, similar to how he told Tywin about the Willas plans.

[Alexia]

He wants her to want him, and does not care if she is hurt in the process.

I don't know if I totally agree with you on the Harry storyline (I just don't have enough info) but I 100% agree with the quoted. Also, I don't believe LF is capable of loving another person...he is a true sociopath. His actions with Sansa, Catelyn, and Lysa prove that to me.

Catelyn: Challenged a man she was betrothed to (and attracted to!) without asking her opinion or caring. Spread all over the realm that he took her virginity. Lied to her about that dagger and betrayed her husband, causing a war that killed her, the husband she loved, and the son she adored. That poor woman died thinking every one of her children were dead.

Lysa: Spread rumors about taking her virginity, began his sexual molestation of her niece in her home, murdered her, and is now planning the murder of her son.

Sansa: Ruined a good marriage that she consented to and wanted, engineered her marriage to the most disgusting possible individual, kissed her in public which almost got her thrown out the Moon Door, killed her aunt in front of her eyes, has established an ongoing pattern of molestation, framed her for regicide to ensure she has no where to turn, etc.

He doesn't seem to have done one thing that shows genuine love through the entire series.

ETA: Good point that marching an army North in winter isn't going to happen.

[emmank]

Yeah, you're right Alexia, I'm guessing about the nature of Harry the Heir; we don't have enough info yet to judge. I just can't imagine Petyr setting Sansa up with someone decent, unless he means to off him soon after. I could see the plot going that direction, but I also think that Petyr wants to change her view of knightly men as heroes, so it fits that he would set her up with Harry if Harry is a douche.

[Alexia]

I also think that Petyr wants to change her view of knightly men as heroes, so it fits that he would set her up with Harry if Harry is a douche.

If that's his plan, good luck with that, LF. I mean, considering that she's pretty much already lost her illusions about true knights and heroes, and considering who she currently has a crush on... :lol:

I really, truely, cannot wait to read Sansa's next chapter. Since she is not appearing in DWD I have my fingers crossed that they will publish it as the teaser for the next book.

[The SmilingKnight]

Some of his actions could kind of hasten the war but i think he is far from deserving to be credited for it.

[Alexia]

Some of his actions could kind of hasten the war but i think he is far from deserving to be credited for it.

Evidence, please? I think it's pretty clear he was actively trying to instigate a war between Stark and Lannister.

1. He helped Lysa kill her husband and then got her to send a letter to the Starks blaming the Lannisters for it

2. He lied to Catelyn and told her that Tyrion Lannister sent a dagger to kill her bedridden son

3. He betrayed Ned Stark to the Lannisters and helped bring about his death (I suspect he may have suggested it to Joff)

4. He tells Sansa that he thrives on chaos

[The SmilingKnight]

The war was started by Tywin Lannister when he unleashed the Mountain.

The reason for that was the death of Robert Baratheon which meant that the game of succession was on.

Reason for that was incestuous affair and children Cersei had with her brother.

-So i think that credit for war itself lies more with Cersei and Tywin then Petyr.

He involved Starks in it but didnt start it.

[emmank]

If that's his plan, good luck with that, LF. I mean, considering that she's pretty much already lost her illusions about true knights and heroes, and considering who she currently has a crush on... :lol:

I really, truely, cannot wait to read Sansa's next chapter. Since she is not appearing in DWD I have my fingers crossed that they will publish it as the teaser for the next book.

oh i know, one reason I want something to come of her crush is just to see Petyr's reaction to that. He thinks he has her so figured out.

And yeah, I know Sansa's cliffhanger wasn't much of one compared to the others in the book, but it was for me because she's my favorite character! I was so happy when I thought she would have a chapter in Dance.... but I hope you're right and it's the preview chapter.

[Alexia]

oh i know, one reason I want something to come of her crush is just to see Petyr's reaction to that. He thinks he has her so figured out.

Petyr AND Tyrion. I can't decide whose reaction I look forward to more.

she's my favorite character!

We can be friends. :cheers:

[Ser Howsmelly]

The war was started by Tywin Lannister when he unleashed the Mountain.

The reason for that was the death of Robert Baratheon which meant that the game of succession was on.

Tywin unleashed Ser Gregor after Cat takes Tyrion captive at the crossroads inn. He is hoping to lure Ned out into the field so that he may be killed or taken captive so that Tyrion could be ransomed. Think back to Sansa's disappointment when Ned does not choose Ser Loras as one of the party to apprehend the Mountain. Now that I think about it, Ned does send out a pretty small party (by my standards) - 20 from each of the four captains and 20 from his own household guard if I'm not mistaken. Only 100 men with instructions to invade Clegane lands and apprehend the ruling lord. That shows you how much faith Ned put in the King's banner.

I guess the fact that people like Stannis and Jon Arryn were asking questions about the legitimacy of Cersei's children could be seen as the seeds for civil war - but the reason that Ned comes south is Jon Arryn's death, and the mystery surrounding the manner of his death. Not his appointment as Hand. Remember he was ready to turn Robert down until Cat found the secret message from Lysa - which was sent on under LF's directions (revealed in Lysa's last rant, where she also admits to putting the "tears" into Jon's wine). LF cannot be said to be wholly responsible for the War of Five Kings but he is definitely behind a lot of the key events that bring about this conflict.

- Poisoning of Jon Arryn

- False implication of Lannisters in this death

- False implication of Tyrion as owner of dragonbone dagger

(Just off the top of my head)

[cravenravenkeeper]

I think LF simply manuvered the situation to his advantage. He doesn't have the power to create the kinds of things people are blaming on him-he just moved them so he benifited. Sure he stirred the pot abit, but there was already plenty of tension without him.

As for his designs on sansa-I'm not sure he's as bad for her as some say. For example I cannot comprehend this part:

Sansa: Ruined a good marriage that she consented to and wanted, engineered her marriage to the most disgusting possible individual, kissed her in public which almost got her thrown out the Moon Door, killed her aunt in front of her eyes, has established an ongoing pattern of molestation, framed her for regicide to ensure she has no where to turn, etc.

You're confusing me with the first two descriptions. In the begginign of the first book she likes joffery, but by the 2nd half she already begins to dislike him (starting with when he had ned killed, put in stone when he showed her neds head). So getting her out of that marraige was a blessing to her.

As for tyrion being "the most disgusting individal possible". I mean i guess on a physical front sure (and based on our Lysa tully discussion this is clearly an element you place in high regard). But all things considered he was a blessing as a husband on a lot of fronts. First of all he never tried to have sex with her-enduring humiliation for her. Second of all he removed her from Joffery's power, and had Joffery not been poisened you can bet yoru bottom dollar that Sansa would be praising the 7 and the old gods that she is marreid to tyrion and Joffery can't make her his side dish (which he stated was his plan).

So sure you can argue that had she stayed married to Tyrion she would have been unhappy on some fronts (not married to a man she had physical chemistry with), but she'd be a lot happer then on other, more basic, fronts.

Anyway LF clearly is self centered, and clearly has caused people pain, and has by our standards a creepy view of sansa (though again remember that in this world a girl who has had her period is marrigable, and inter generational marraige among nobles is practically a norm, so by the standards of his time this attraction isn't abnormal to anyone)

That said from a readers standpoint he's an awesome, incredibly interesting and mutlifaceted charecter. If I could pick a new POV he's like #2.

[emmank]

You're confusing me with the first two descriptions. In the begginign of the first book she likes joffery, but by the 2nd half she already begins to dislike him (starting with when he had ned killed, put in stone when he showed her neds head). So getting her out of that marraige was a blessing to her.

I'm pretty sure Alexia was referring to Willas there, not Joffrey. Willas would have been a near-perfect marriage/situation for her, and she wanted to marry him. LF ruined that for her by telling Tywin of the Queen of Thorns' plans.

As far as Sansa being happy with Tyrion, it's clearly stated in Tyrion's chapters in Storm that her misery was growing every day. I'll find the quote if you like, but it's there. Watching them be married was like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. But I do hope S & T meet again at some point, to clear the air on a few issues, but not sure if that's gonna happen.

Yeah, I am aware that women are marriageable earlier in Westeros. That isn't why LF is creepy. He's creepy because he's manipulative and he can't seem to make up his mind whether he is obsessed with Sansa or her mother. And he makes her kiss him, then call him Daddy 5 minutes later. Just... yuck.

He is really fun to hate though and even more fun to read about, I'll agree with you there. :)

[cravenravenkeeper]

I'm pretty sure Alexia was referring to Willas there, not Joffrey. Willas would have been a near-perfect marriage/situation for her, and she wanted to marry him. LF ruined that for her by telling Tywin of the Queen of Thorns' plans.

Oops missed that. I dunno how happy she would have been-all we had we're reports from the Tyrells. But that said you're right (though it's possible that LF knwos something about Willas we don't that makse him a bad match).

As far as Sansa being happy with Tyrion, it's clearly stated in Tyrion's chapters in Storm that her misery was growing every day. I'll find the quote if you like, but it's there. Watching them be married was like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. But I do hope S & T meet again at some point, to clear the air on a few issues, but not sure if that's gonna happen.

I don't doubt Sansa was unhappy about the marraige. However as we saw Sansa has a huge entitlement complex and is incredibly superficial. That doesn't make the marraige awful, just makes her a typical 14 year old girl.

Yeah, I am aware that women are marriageable earlier in Westeros. That isn't why LF is creepy. He's creepy because he's manipulative and he can't seem to make up his mind whether he is obsessed with Sansa or her mother. And he makes her kiss him, then call him Daddy 5 minutes later. Just... yuck.

He is really fun to hate though and even more fun to read about, I'll agree with you there. smiley2.gif

Well, for me at least, I find a late 20s/early 30s guy obsessing about a 14(?) year old girl creepy. But I don't hate LF (well I mostly don't hate LF-the stark fanboy in me wishes he had helped Robb, but the realist in me knows Robb and Cat would never have treated LF respectfully nor rewarded him.)

As for the kiss/daddy thing-one was clearly real (i.e. I like you), the other was playing for the court. Totally separate.

As a side note I wouldn't mind Sansa crushing LF (esp in conjunction with Jon), but I think whats more likely (based on how much she is submerging in the Alyana mindset) is them (lf and sansa) actually coming to feel towards each other like father/daughter. LF's early obsession with Sansa as Cat turning into a semi-normal paternal relationship with them working together.

As a secondary side note, I think one thing about the starks, something only Tyrion has ever out rightly said, is they are honor snobs. They don't treat the lower classes/less traditonal folks respectfully and its cost them. A lot. (Ned with the Renly thing, Cat with Bronn, Robb with the Frey's etc). Jon however has learned from his time in the NW to lose some of this snobbishness (pointed out to him by the black smith in the beggining of his time there). This, plus

SPOILER: ADWD

His experience working against the Boltons for Stannis

makes him a likely contender for "most politically competent stark."

SPOILER: Just in case

I really really really want Jon to kill both boltons and burn Dreadfort to ground. I think that is within the realm of responsibility. As much as I'd like for him to also kill those freys responsible for the red wedding and Uncat (cuz she needs it), and unite the houses by marrying a frey girl to a loyalist, I think other events (Other Invasaion/Dany Arriving) are going to interfere with this.

[Alexia]

Yes, I meant Willas. And the only bad thing LF could come up with about Sansa is that he would have bored her to death.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe that a 12 year old girl who is depressed and miserable for being married off to a dwarf, who is missing his nose, who's family exterminated hers, has an entitlement complex. TYRION had an f'n entitlement complex for wanting Winterfell, and for daring to want his child bride from a defeated family to love him and being resentful of the fact that she didn't. If I had been in her shoes and Tyrion had consummated the marriage I would have committed suicide the next day and I don't care if that means that I have an entitlement complex and am superficial. And Joffrey intended to rape her in spite of her marriage, and told her that his uncle would bring her to his bed whenever he commanded or he'd have his head.

[The SmilingKnight]

Tyrion has a nasty little hole inside him, courtesy of his father. A hole which can never be filled but wants to be - thats why hes trying to find what he lost with whores, since he believes Tysha was one, thus he repeats it endlesly never finding a way out. Thats why he foolishly expects some kind of love even from Sansa. Its not a concious decision or need.

Its a screaming wound.

Considering that he did more then good by her.

Stop calling him dwarf.

Tywin unleashed Ser Gregor after Cat takes Tyrion captive at the crossroads inn. He is hoping to lure Ned out into the field so that he may be killed or taken captive so that Tyrion could be ransomed.

Thanks for reminding me but i do believe its just an excuse he needed. And it felt like all of that was prepared well in advance.

[cravenravenkeeper]

I'm sorry, but I do not believe that a 12 year old girl who is depressed and miserable for being married off to a dwarf, who is missing his nose, who's family exterminated hers, has an entitlement complex

.

That's your right, but the fact is she should have at least been nice to Tyrion. Remember who was stood up to Joffery for her? It was him and the hound, and much more him.

ANd yea I agree-stop calling him dwarf.

TYRION had an f'n entitlement complex for wanting Winterfell, and for daring to want his child bride from a defeated family to love him and being resentful of the fact that she didn't.

1) Well Tyrion didn't feel "entitled" to winterfell-he wanted it because it seemed like 2nd best to the rock his father said he was never getting. Thats called political manuvering.

2) Sansa is not a child bride-she's not a child even by our definition, and by theirs she's a women. Yes its awful they marry girls off so young, but Sansa expected to be married young

3) Tyrion had long given up the idea that people should like him, but he still hoped for it. He knew why sansa didn't like him, but he was trying to make the best of a bad situation. Remember the marraige wasn't his idea.

If I had been in her shoes and Tyrion had consummated the marriage I would have committed suicide the next day and I don't care if that means that I have an entitlement complex and am superficial.

Um no, being upset about rape (which is what that would have been since Sansa wouldn't have consented) is perfectly normal. Sansa however wasn't raped. Nor does he mistreat her in any way except by being ugly and (if I recall) not very comforting.

And Joffrey intended to rape her in spite of her marriage, and told her that his uncle would bring her to his bed whenever he commanded or he'd have his head.

And maybe he would have succeeded. She was better off with him than single or with any of the alternatives.

[Alexia]

That's your right, but the fact is she should have at least been nice to Tyrion. Remember who was stood up to Joffery for her? It was him and the hound, and much more him.

And when was she ever rude to him? She was always polite, she tried to make small talk, etc. Sansa never mistreated Tyrion in any way - she just didn't love him or feel sexually attracted to him. And she actually thinks kindly of him after she leaves KL.

Is he not a dwarf?

Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brood and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs.

1. Well, goody for him. He had no right whatsoever to it.

2. Sansa was still 12 when they married. She thinks like a child and she is too young to bear children. When Robert and Ned betrothed her and Joffrey they were talking about having the marriage happen "in a few years". Moreover, she marries at an early age by the standards of that society. Cersei and Catelyn married at 18, Lysa at 15, etc. The only other girl to marry so young was Dany and Viserys, the instigator of the marriage, thought she was too young. ETA: And most telling of all, Tyrion calls her a child multiple times - to his father, to her on the wedding night, etc. Tyrion considers her a child bride.

3. He had far more power in the situation than Sansa did.

[The SmilingKnight]

Is he not a dwarf?

If you really want to be stubborn about it - no. There are no dwarfs in Songs.

[cybroleach]

I guess the fact that people like Stannis and Jon Arryn were asking questions about the legitimacy of Cersei's children could be seen as the seeds for civil war.

- Poisoning of Jon Arryn

- False implication of Lannisters in this death

- False implication of Tyrion as owner of dragonbone dagger

(Just off the top of my head)

LF planted those seeds as well he set Stannis on the path of their illegitimacy just like he did Ned.

The only way there's War without him is perhaps from Renly's corner and they were always metioned as friendly on the council, so I wouldn't even bet him being above chatting to Renly how great a queen he thought Marg would be.

Edited to add that without bring the Starks south Cersei likely doesn't have Robert killed for 4 years. And there's a ton of intagible factors that can happen in this time to prevent any war at all then.

[Ran]

Keep it polite, folks.

And what is this about not calling Tyrion a dwarf? He calls himself a dwarf. He is, in fact, a dwarf. Arguing otherwise is mind-boggling.

I agree with Alexia entirely, re: Sansa. Sansa was polite to her captor -- and that's what Tyrion essentially is, unwillingly though it may be -- but she gave to him no more than he was willing to force from her. We are all happy that Tyrion gave her the choice as to how to proceed with their marriage, but we cannot then blame Sansa for being "mean" by not submitting to his desire for her.

And to move things back on topic, I think Petyr Baelish has the most direct blame for this particular chain of events. This war happened when it did because he engineered existing circumstances to that end. If it had not been for his meddling, it would have been Varys who pushed things to light, and it would probably have been a few years down the line rather than now.

Then again, maybe it's best that it happened now rather than later.