Gay Characters

[DaeneryStormBorn]

I find it fascinating how a lot of people points out that this person is gay and that person is gay, eg loras and renly, does it really matter if their characters are gay? I was reading a forum about the Mystery knight, and most of topic would always go back to Daemon being gay and hitting on Dunk, Does being gay affect their character in any way?

[Daemon23]

I think it does, if not directly, both in story terms (what Stannis et. al. think of Renly Baratheon or Loras Tyrell) but also in terms of world-building, the art of creating a believable setting. The inclusion of such tendencies in some characters among Martin's cast of thousands, even if not directly germane to the plot, helps make the world of the novel more realistic to the reader. Elements of realism in fantasy are vital to helping the reader relate to the setting, so that what is fantastic will seem fantastic by contrast to what we know. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

I will also say that GRRM is doing something with these characters that would not have been possible fifty years ago. Back then, if a character in sci fi or fantasy lit was portrayed as homosexual, it was invariably to underscore what a vile, perverse and despicable villain he was (unless you were William S. Burroughs, in which case your science fiction novel became the subject of censorship and a trial on charges of obscenity). Martin doesn't do that. (Nor, to be fair, do other contemporary fantasists - as goes society, so goes its fictive reflections and sub-creations.) Neither does Martin glamorize this aspect of his characters. It simply is how thet are, neither better nor worse for it - kind of like actual gay people in real life.

[Rakka]

What Daemon said. There doesn't need to be a Plot Reason for characters to be gay, anymore there needs to be a reason for characters to have dark hair. A character being gay may affect the plot, in relation to their preferred behaviour, or it may not. A character having dark hair may be a plot reason (see Gendry) or it may not. There are gay characters for the same reason there are dark haired characters, and that is realism. It takes all kinds to make a believable world.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

I think it does, if not directly, both in story terms (what Stannis et. al. think of Renly Baratheon or Loras Tyrell) but also in terms of world-building, the art of creating a believable setting. The inclusion of such tendencies in some characters among Martin's cast of thousands, even if not directly germane to the plot, helps make the world of the novel more realistic to the reader. Elements of realism in fantasy are vital to helping the reader relate to the setting, so that what is fantastic will seem fantastic by contrast to what we know. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

I will also say that GRRM is doing something with these characters that would not have been possible fifty years ago. Back then, if a character in sci fi or fantasy lit was portrayed as homosexual, it was invariably to underscore what a vile, perverse and despicable villain he was (unless you were William S. Burroughs, in which case your science fiction novel became the subject of censorship and a trial on charges of obscenity). Martin doesn't do that. (Nor, to be fair, do other contemporary fantasists - as goes society, so goes its fictive reflections and sub-creations.) Neither does Martin glamorize this aspect of his characters. It simply is how thet are, neither better nor worse for it - kind of like actual gay people in real life.

I dont know so far as to what i understand from the series some characters being gay does not really affect their character in the story, maybe to make it a believable world i agree, but as for now i have not seen any reason to make me feel that them being gay affect their character, its sort of like a side gossip that can be killed easily, we or some of the readers are only making a big deal out of it when we realised that they are gay, its like whooaooo gay, the more that i read some forum where gays character are involve the more i am convince that it really does not affect their character its more like some readers just like to keep pointing out what is obvious and repeating pointing it again and again, until someone says ok they are gay so what.

[MirriMaz]

It doesn't affect their character but at the same time the books have their fair bit of sex and it does make sense for some of the characters to be gay out of the huge cast. If Martin didn't want to include any gay characters he wouldn't have hinted it and then confirm it later.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

Well, I'd say it is pretty damn important that Dunk is almost killed by Daemon's jealous lover, how is it not?

Loras being in love with Renly is important as far as motivation of admittedly 3d tier character goes.

Overall a presense of gay characters is important as indicator that Martin is modern and realistic author who doesn't ignore existance of different orientations.

[Lord O' Bones]

Additionally, using the word "character" in it's moral judgement sense, entirely appropriate to this setting is important.

In this setting, gay characters are looked down upon for their being gay by other martial men (who haven't recently had their asses handed to them on the field by said gay characters.) True to life in that time, I'd think.

And yes, Lyn Corbray. Thus the stupidity of that notion, yet it's still obviously there.

[MinDonner]

George's reasons for including them are pretty well covered, but the reason it so often comes up for discussion is probably the fact that he was rather coy about portraying the actual gayness, it's all hinted at rather than explicit, which obviously gives us nerds fodder for theories and disagreement. The crackpot theory about the Clegane Brothers aside, I haven't seen many other threads that discuss obvious shit like "were Ned and Cat really married?". So arguably the reticence has drawn more attention to it than it would have if Renly & Loras had been more explicit - which wouldn't necessarily have been breaking the setting; Louis XIV's brother was one of the models for Renly (raised as a girl to stop him from having kingly ambitions, awesome soldier, totally gay) and that was a pretty open secret at the time.

[Lord Varys]

We only discussed Daemon and Alyn over and over again, because Ran refused to believe that they were a couple, or that Daemon was hitting on Dunk. Daemon is beautifully done in TMK, I think, and him being gay does not affect his character. And he also does not fail because he is gay, but because he is surrounded by stupid followers and is himself also not that bright.

Renly, although not really a prominent character, is really a very good player. I'd go as far as seeing him as a Baratheon version of Littlefinger. He is likable, appears to be harmless, but able to keep his hands clean while doing dirty work. He had no problem at all to murder Viserys and Dany (or Cersei and her children), and I'm pretty sure that he, too, fed Loras' the idea of using his mare to trick Gregor.

Neither Daemon nor Renly are gay cliché - in fact, the most 'gayish' character in the series is Littlefinger, but he seems to be pretty straight in terms on his sexual preferences.

I'm not sure if Lyn Corbray is really gay. He strikes me more as a pedophile. Littlefinger promised him 'boys', not youths or men, and his squire Mychel Redfort had an on-going affair with Mya Stone during AGoT. I'm pretty sure that his squire would have had to tend to his every needs if he had been gay, and would not been allowed to have other affairs during this time. A gay knight most likely would pick only good looking squires. It can't be a coincidence that Loras Tyrell ended up becoming Renly's squire.

Getting Loras as POV character in TWoW could really shed a light on the whole gay stuff in Westeros, and I'm pretty sure we have to get a Tyrell POV eventually.

[Sir Tobi]

Margeries maidenhead, or better her consummation with Renly is a big issue in AFFC and the books to come an so is Renlys sexual alignment. In real history a medieval marriage was not valid unless consummated and since Henry the VIII it was common for royal wedding nights to be open to court so they had witnesses for the consummation. This was for the protection of the brides, so that they couldn't be set aside afterwards.

The westerosi tradition of "bedding" is a nice equivalent.

On a sidenote, I like the fact, that most of the "openly" gay characters are really deadly fighters. Loras, Renly, Lyn Conbray (well not normal gay, but ...), the Blackfish. They are gay, but no pussys *g*.

[Lord O' Bones]

I'm not sure if Lyn Corbray is really gay. He strikes me more as a pedophile.

I'm not sure what the distinction is or why it matters. One is criminal, one is not. To us.

Were I into prepubescent girls would I be any less of a pedophile, though straight? (straight male here)

Corbray is gay and a pedophile.

[Lord O' Bones]

the Blackfish.

Brynden Tully is not necessarily gay, he just never took a wife.

I guess I'm gay then.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not really familiar with those sexual categories, but I do believe that pederasts are different from normal gays in the sense that they are only sexually attracted to male children. In that sense, therre are really differences between a pedophile who is attracted to small girls, a pederast, who is a attracted to small boys, and a gay person, who is attracted to attractive adults of the own sex.

[MinDonner]

... since Henry the VIII it was common for royal wedding nights to be open to court so they had witnesses for the consummation.

Pretty sure it well predates that, and was in fact already dying out by then. But Google just brings up a bunch of wedding etiquette sites and I have no idea where I originally read of it, so take with as many pinches of salt as you like.

[Sir Tobi]

as far as I know there is not such a big gab between "gay-pederasts" and "straight-pederasts", if there is any. The sexual attraction lying more on the psychological side (inexperienced, innocent, "not a thread") than on the physical body, where the differences between a boy and girl child are not so big.

Vaginal Sex between a girl-child and a full grown man can leed to injuries, while anal-Sex is (physically) safer. ... not that Lyn Conbray would care me thinks.

Pretty sure it well predates that, and was in fact already dying out by then. But Google just brings up a bunch of wedding etiquette sites and I have no idea where I originally read of it, so take with as many pinches of salt as you like.

they usually seat me well below the salt *g*

I'm no expert either. I know for sure that it was common until late in the 17th century to have witnesses to the consummation. The Habsburgs had it long after 1660, but I don't know when it started. But Henry the VIII is usualy a good guess *g*

[Lord O' Bones]

I'm not really familiar with those sexual categories, but I do believe that pederasts are different from normal gays in the sense that they are only sexually attracted to male children. In that sense, therre are really differences between a pedophile who is attracted to small girls, a pederast, who is a attracted to small boys, and a gay person, who is attracted to attractive adults of the own sex.

Being the run-of-the-mill straight guy that chases women without any special training otherwise, I can't gainsay you on this.

But I suspect it's not that simple.

[Sir Tobi]

Well anyway it's sure to assume, thet Lyn ist not normaly gay, so we can exclude him from this thread, can we?

[MinDonner]

I'm no expert either. I know for sure that it was common until late in the 17th century to have witnesses to the consummation. The Habsburgs had it long after 1660, but I don't know when it started. But Henry the VIII is usualy a good guess *g*

Because he's a king who famously got married a lot? And you think he'd have wanted to instigate a system that made it harder to divorce a wife?? You haven't really thought this through, have you?

A bit more extensive searching reveals that it was a pretty common practice in pre-Christian Scandinavia, though at no point did this involve anyone watching the actual sexytimes, they just had to make sure the right couple were put into the same bed at the end of the day. And certainly later on, the bloodstained sheets (yowch!) were regularly kept as proof. But I doubt that the whole "watch the king have sex!" thing was that common in early modern times and beyond. You get your bed blessed by some priests and then they leave you to it.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Saying a character likes "boys" doesn't necessarily mean he is a pedophile, anymore than saying a character likes "girls" means he is a pedophile. It depends whether you are talking 16-year-old "boys" and "girls" or eight-year-olds. I can't remember enough about Lyn Corbray to tell which is meant in his case.

[Lord O' Bones]

Well anyway it's sure to assume, thet Lyn ist not normaly gay, so we can exclude him from this thread, can we?

As sure as being "normally gay" as being an outlier, I could agree. But it's not so I won't.

Being gay is abnormal, even if as it's natural. Being amoral is more normal. And sexually independent.

ETA: strikethough