Wise Man's Fear Spoilers Thread (SPOILERS)

[Lothlorian]

However, I did see the Cthae flowers as kind of extended allegory fruit of the forbidden tree. And of course, the tree gives you knowledge... way too much knowledge. And it's possible the massive stone inscription is something like "Knowledge is power" or "With knowledge comes responsibility." Dunno though, seems too cliche for PR.

The whole "with knowledge come responsibility" theme I thought was captured pretty well with Kvothe being denied knowledge (from Elodin) because he wasn't mature enough. Not so blatant as that, but similar seems likely, I like the idea of it meaning something concerning knowledge.

4) Denna's patron is most likely Bredon but definitely not Cinder. The clues are there for Bredon: walking stick, etc etc. But as Cthaeh says: "you would think a man with the eyes of a goat would stand out" (paraphrased). He references Cinder in such obvious terms throughout their conversation that it seems unlikely that when he talks about Denna's patron he intentionally doesn't make the connection.

Seemed like the Cthaeh spoke specifically, and I can see where he wouldn't want to just flat out tell Kvothe about Cinder. When the Cthaeh says that Kvothe recently ran into one of the Chandrain, he could have been talking about Bredon. The Cthaeh would know every scenario, and would then have a reason for hinting and letting Kvothe figure it out on his own. Why can't Denna's patron be Bredon who is also Cinder?

6) Kaysera the poet killer vs Ambrose the Poet vs Vashet's former employer referred to as "my Poet King" = coincidence?

I see that as adding evidence to Ambrose being the king that Kvothe killed, but Vashet's "Poet King" couldn't be Ambrose (though could be the king Kvothe kills).

[bolu]

Finally validated my account for posting! Looks like I dragged some people here from the Amazon discussion board! Heh ;)

First off: I love this thread! So many connections have been made that it puts me to shame.

Does anyone have any ideas on about how PR will deal with the fact that the Maer has a high level of lead in his body? I think this will play a role in Book 3 and will likely lead to the demise of the Maer. I believe lead poisonings can lead to a high level of birth defects and miscarriages as well as numerous other effects - most significant of which is a short memory span.

That's a good theory. I have another.

"I swear I won’t attempt to uncover your patron," I said bitterly. "I swear it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by the ever-moving moon." - chapter seventy-three, Blood and Ink

No left hand means that he cannot play his lute. He wouldn't want to be around music if he wasn't able to join in, explaining why there's no music in the inn. It might explain the third silence too. After all, Kvote defines himself by his music. As for his name and his power... He lost the ability to do sympathy and probably naming. And I suspect that his name is locked inside the thrice locked box, outside his reach.

Truth be told, I had to search for the word "hands" in my Kindle version just to make sure that Kvothe still has both hands in the present timeline. (Fear not, I've checked and Kvothe still has use of both of his hands) What a story it would be if Kvothe somehow lost his left hand in the 3rd book and had to carry such a terrible handicap a subsequent trilogy. A handicapped hero kicking ass and taking names! HA!

[jaerken]

Regarding Cinder = Bredon:

I suppose it could be the case... but highly doubt it. When we meet Cinder at the bandits, he's spry, moves like liquid (or quicksilver if you remember the scene where Kvothe meets him as a boy after his parents are killed) and he's vaguely recognizable to Kvothe. He takes an arrow in the leg and keeps on moving. Bredon is none of those things, he has dark eyes, he walks with a limp, he's subtle, and obviously very intelligent. Cinder from the two times we've met him is like a common psychopath thug. He taunted a 12 year old boy about killing his parents and was about to finish the boy off himself.

I dunno, it doesn't add up to me. They're very different characters. Haliax is the bad guy that I could see playing a deep game that involves recruiting Kvothe's ladylove to work against him. Cinder would just kill her and then kill Kvothe too.

PS - the Sithe are either really stupid, non-existent, or complicit in the 'evil' of the world. You'd think after Iax, Lanre/HalIax, and whoever else ruined the world they'd monitor the tree a little better. But apparently a naked 16 year old boy named Kvothe circumvented the Sithe 'Do Not Fly' list. Worst security ever. They should really hire Michael Westen.

[thistlepong]

I found The Wise Man's Fear to be the most compelling book I've read this year. It was carefully crafted and well written. And based on the end of The Name of the Wind I expected the narrative to linger over Kvothe's favorite stories: Felurian and the Adem.

Thanks for having this thread and being open to a flood of noobs.

I'm sure Kvothe's name is in the Thrice Locked Chest of Kvothe the Bloodless. My guess as to why is that Denna exploited it to precipitate whatever results in the Kingkiller epithet. I'm fairly certain it has to do with Yllish magic. If Kvothe's name is hidden, we can assume Maedre and any other secret(s) associated with it are protected as well.

I think the story Bast and Kvothe extemporize about Chronicler hints at it:

...And more important he knows Chronicler can't control you if you have your name hidden away somewhere safe. The high king's name is written in a book of glass hidden in a box of copper. And that box is locked away in a great iron chest where nobody can touch it.

Kvothe's mooning over Denna is overwrought, tedious, and eventually mind-boggling. By the time they're in Severen I can't imagine a reader not thinking to hirself that Kvothe's got to cut it out. I believe this sets up the listener to feel Kvothe walked into the betrayal when it happens. He's not all that proud of it.

As I read the thread I came to embrace the idea that Denna's braids were magic. "Lovely" wasn't the only time it definitely happened; she also wove "Don't speak to me," when they were in the stream. And the braids are present before Kvothe has a good handle on Yllish.

Someone asked how frequently the lietmotif of the Alar like Ramston steel was repeated. Over the course of both books it occurs four times. Master Arwyl uses it after the first whipping and then it occurs at nearer the end of NotW and scores the beginning and ending of the tale in WMF. It occurs fewer times than some of the others. And in contrast to Devi's "Ocean in a storm" Alar it might have its drawbacks. Other insightful posters have noted it might be hard, but brittle.

Netalia Lackless must be Kvothe's mother. There are too many clues that would lead to nothing.

Taborlin's copper sword in Marten's story calls to Felurian's comment about copper knives being one of the things the Fae are vulnerable to. Presumably the copper on Ambrose's windows and the cell in the Crockery are there to prevent Fae incursion.

The Loeclos Box is a mystery. The obvious reference within the text is Jax/Iax's box with a piece of the name of the moon. On the other hand if it is related to the scrael (most likely only a scraeling fragment since that would draw them without having to be full size itself,) how would the opener even know until much later if they have to cross the Stormwal?

Ferulian implies both that Iax started the creation war by stealing the moon and that he's seal from the Fae by the doors of stone. Is he kept in some pocket or are the doors actually keeping him in the civilized world?

Until I read this thread, I was convinced that The Edema Ruh were the Singers and that Illien was the protector of the city that didn't fall. It was one of the twin cities, right? At any rate, it looks like it's taken for granted that Aleph held. Shehyn's story suggests that Alaxel/Haliax/Lanre poisoned seven others against the empire but one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city. Is there any evidence in another story that Aleph was tempted?

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

Ferulian implies both that Iax started the creation war by stealing the moon and that he's seal from the Fae by the doors of stone. Is he kept in some pocket or are the doors actually keeping him in the civilized world?

Until I read this thread, I was convinced that The Edema Ruh were the Singers and that Illien was the protector of the city that didn't fall. It was one of the twin cities, right? At any rate, it looks like it's taken for granted that Aleph held. Shehyn's story suggests that Alaxel/Haliax/Lanre poisoned seven others against the empire but one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city. Is there any evidence in another story that Aleph was tempted?

For now I'm just treating the doors of stone as death. Regarding Shehyn's story I probably have to reread it but the impression I got is that Lanre was one of the seven that were poisoned, not the poisoner. The "enemy" (iax perhaps) was the poisoner. Which possibly means that one of the chandrian didn't destroy his/her city. Interesting if true.

[TeaSpoon]

Truth be told, I had to search for the word "hands" in my Kindle version just to make sure that Kvothe still has both hands in the present timeline. (Fear not, I've checked and Kvothe still has use of both of his hands) What a story it would be if Kvothe somehow lost his left hand in the 3rd book and had to carry such a terrible handicap a subsequent trilogy. A handicapped hero kicking ass and taking names! HA!

Remember the scene when Kvothe was making boughs of holly. He fumbled and a thorn cut deep into his finger. As we all know, Kvothe was amazingly agile and precise hands. He never fumbles anything. And afterward, he threw away the holly with affected casualness, pretending not to care.

It's clear that he lost mobility in one of his hands.

Throughout the book, Kvothe is absolutely terrified that something will happen to his hands. Maybe something eventually did. There must be a reason why Kvothe would deny himself music. Music is his life. He defined himself to Vashet by playing her music. If there's one thing in the world that would break him, it's taking away his music.

[devilant]

I thought The Wise Man's Fear was a phenomenal 500 page book stretched out into a merely really good 1000 page book.

I really like Elodin. I love how there is a method to his madness--there is always a profound lesson to be learned from his hilarious antics. Also I like that he seems to be the only truly good character in the whole four corners. Every time we see him outside of an official function he's doing something altruistic-- visiting the insane people at the crockery, trying to help Auri, setting Hemme's rooms on fire, and so on.

I dislike that Kvothe never actually learns any of the life lessons he is taught. For instance, he spends months training with the Adem and it seems like he starts to mature a little bit, but when he gets back to the University one of the first things he does is send a fake pregnancy letter to Ambrose--an act of unprovoked, dispassionate, calculated, premeditated evil. Way to keep with the Lethani!

Devi became a far more interesting character in this book. What is she after in the archives? She offered 40 talents + sex to get in there--she must have a really good reason for her desperation. I definitely won't be happy if it turns out she just wants to satisfy her intellectual curiosity or some such nonsense.

Also, I thought it made perfect sense that the martial arts moves and the sex moves were indistinguishable. Picture Patrick Rothfuss attacking you. Now picture Patrick Rothfuss making love to you. But I repeat myself.

[stuchiu]

Does anyone else feel that the Lackless box holds Kvothe's name?

[TeaSpoon]

Until I read this thread, I was convinced that The Edema Ruh were the Singers and that Illien was the protector of the city that didn't fall. It was one of the twin cities, right? At any rate, it looks like it's taken for granted that Aleph held. Shehyn's story suggests that Alaxel/Haliax/Lanre poisoned seven others against the empire but one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city. Is there any evidence in another story that Aleph was tempted?

Where did you hear that one of the twin cities survived? I couldn't find any evidence of this happening. I do know that Belen fell because one of the Angels were from that city. The story described Myr Tariniel falling, so that leaves six possibilities.

The cities are "Belen, Antus, Vaeret, Tinusa, Emlen, and the twin cities of Murilla and Murella. Last was Myr Tariniel."

Interesting fact: The University is located in a place called Belenay. Denna sent a letter to Kvothe with this on the envelope:

Kvothe—Anker’s Inn.

University. (Two miles west of Imre.)

Belenay-Barren

Central Commonwealth.

Looking at the map, you'll the following places:

Ceald

- Ralien

- Anilin

Commonwealth

- Hallowfell

- Imre

- Tarbean

Yll

Aturan Empire

- Atur

The Small Kingdoms

- Junpui

Modeg

- Cershaen

Vintas

- Renere

- The free city of Tinue

Ademre

The Stormwal Mountains

From the similarity in names, I think that Tinue used to be Tinusa. We should write down place names that are not on the map. We know that Vintas is also home to Severen, for instance.

[Curethan]

What an interesting thread this is. Love the idea that either or both the Lackless box and Kvothe's lockless box might contain names. Aside from the story with the king's name-in-a-box-in-a-box, is there other evidence that Names can be captured like that?

[Slick Mongoose]

Regarding Cinder = Bredon:

I suppose it could be the case... but highly doubt it. When we meet Cinder at the bandits, he's spry, moves like liquid (or quicksilver if you remember the scene where Kvothe meets him as a boy after his parents are killed) and he's vaguely recognizable to Kvothe. He takes an arrow in the leg and keeps on moving. Bredon is none of those things, he has dark eyes, he walks with a limp, he's subtle, and obviously very intelligent. Cinder from the two times we've met him is like a common psychopath thug. He taunted a 12 year old boy about killing his parents and was about to finish the boy off himself.

I agree.

Bredon is Master Ash.

Bredon is obviously not Cinder.

Thus, Master Ash is not Cinder.

My Ferule theory is better, even if it is a stretch.

PS - the Sithe are either really stupid, non-existent, or complicit in the 'evil' of the world. You'd think after Iax, Lanre/HalIax, and whoever else ruined the world they'd monitor the tree a little better. But apparently a naked 16 year old boy named Kvothe circumvented the Sithe 'Do Not Fly' list. Worst security ever. They should really hire Michael Westen.

Someone else mentioned that they might have let him through deliberately. His name is "The broken tree", after all.

I dislike that Kvothe never actually learns any of the life lessons he is taught. For instance, he spends months training with the Adem and it seems like he starts to mature a little bit, but when he gets back to the University one of the first things he does is send a fake pregnancy letter to Ambrose--an act of unprovoked, dispassionate, calculated, premeditated evil. Way to keep with the Lethani!

It's a noticable thing throughout both books, that Kvothe's sense of morality is perhaps not what it should be. Kilvin likes him but clearly doesn't trust him - He steals from the fishery, makes a lamp designed for sneaking around, aquires a crossbow via the black market, etc.

Vashet sees it too, isn't sure which is the real Kvothe.

And there's the feud with Ambrose. Which, as someone pointed out earlier, is very much two sided. Kvothe is telling the story, and so Ambrose looks bad, but when you actually go through the things that happened from Ambrose's point of view, Kvothe isn't really any better.

From the similarity in names, I think that Tinue used to be Tinusa.

And that would explain it being "The free city", too. The one that didn't fall. I like it.

[Slick Mongoose]

It's certainly plausible that Kvothe being forced to leave for a few terms because of the trial satisfies this, as it would fit into the "every story isn't always what it's made out to be" theme mentioned before. It really doesn't seem like Ambrose got his revenge through that, however. He had to leave the University for a time also, so he was also punished in the same way Kvothe was. And he didn't really do anything for it to occur, so it would be hard at least for himself to consider himself avenged. And that episode didn't really strike me as an incident where Kvothe was caught "flat-footed". He wasn't "forced" to leave because of the trial either, just strongly encouraged. I don't know, but I'd wager the incident in question has yet to occur (whether or not it involves direct expulsion). It reads as tho Kvothe has to leave the University for good as a result.

Personally I think it's satisfied. Although he may well be kicked out again, there's some evidence for it, but it's not necessary. People shouldn't be too surprised if it doesn't happen.

It was definitely Ambrose that caused Kvothe to be put on trial. He got his noble pals to demand it from the Imre government. And he was pretty much forced to leave, else his tuition would have been insane.

That Ambrose was forced to leave too... Well, he probably didn't think it through properly (who else do we know like that? ;) )

[Slick Mongoose]

Slick Mongoose, I’m curious as to why you think Lorren knows about Kvothe’s mother? From the conversation Lorren had with Kvothe right after admissions, I only got that Lorren had heard of him and knew he was a bard. Lorren even asks which troupe Arliden performed in, which would suggest he didn’t even know that he was a part of the Edema Ruh (unless he was simply attempting to make small talk). Was there another part where Lorren brings Arliden up?

There's no other part where Lorren brings it up, we're thinking of the same passage.

It's the way Lorren talks about it. Kvothe tells him that his father was Arliden, so Lorren double and triple checks to make sure they're thinking of the same Arliden. Why?

Lorren is clearly not the sort for small talk. Or the sort who'se really into bards. Arliden is clearly famous for something else.

While Netalia may have been very annoyed at Arliden's song giving her name away, she can't truly be hiding. The troupe that she ran off with can't be that much of a secret. They tell everyone who they are before they play. Every gossip in Vintas surely knew. She just doesn't want it broadcast everywhere they go.

And lets not forget that Lorren has a network of book collectors, who presumably bring him all the interesting news from the world.

[bridgeburner]

love this thread, book is a page turner in the truest sense... might be a little rough around the edges, but who cares when it's so much fun!

my two cents on some of the theories given here...

1) not tally a lot less: genius. just genius.

2) the Lackless box & the scrael: I'm a fan of this theory, for a few reasons, most of which are wild speculation.

The two books make clear that all hell has broken loose in the wider world, and Kvothe blames himself for all of it- I believe there's a quote in the first book going something like 'I'm to blame for this war, the Penitent King, the Scrael, all of it'.

The Lackless box is old; I suspect it dates from the creation war, coincidentally the other time (mentioned in the books anyway) where the whole world went mad and plunged into war. The Lackless also have a door of stone on their lands; I think the Loeclos were prison wardens (hence Lack-key to a Lockless door?), somehow involved in the aftermath of Tor Drossen & locking the armies behind those doors, presumably in a pocket of the Fae realms. I think the Lackless are now responsible for the final door, the seal on the rest to hold the most terrible of the war machines & soldiers used in the war completely seperate (in the Mael?); the Scrael are an example of these war machines, the Dancers part of the soldiers maybe.

I also think Lackless box and the door are actually not really related; it's not a key, it's just another responsibility, and another prison of sorts.

I think Kvothe opens the box thinking it does hold a key, but only finds fragments of strage stone ("her husband's rocks"); then he opens the Lackless door, maybe thinking it's the door to the Amyr, and breaks the seal (thus fulfilling Cthaeh's desire?). Realising what he has done- maybe being told by the Amyr? maybe resulting in the Maer's death and Ambrose ascending the throne?- he closes the door and all the others he can find (on this side of the Stormwal?), but it's too late; there are enough cracks for these things to get into the rest of the Fae, and from there escape to the real world during the dark of the moon (perhaps behind the Stormwal). Then Kvothe realises he really HAS cocked everything up when the Scrael come toward Vintas & the Lackless lands toward the fragments he released (and perhaps lost not thinking they were important), and all hell break loose as everything else starts following the Scrael back to the lands of men.

*one other thing: what if the original Lady Loeclos was Lyra, and her husband was Lanre? And they disappear because they don't want to be associated with Haliax? Which is also why the Lackless women seem to be good with words? Would be way too pat (no pun intended), but would kinda fit?

3) Changing names: love the theory that Lyra changed Lanre's name, crafting one that could never die. Also think Kvothe probably doesn't change his name, but as already theorised by others (and most recently well by thistlepong, take a bow dude), locks it in his box written in Ylissh knots; and he does this to complete faking his death, because otherwise Namers will be able to find him; but now he can no longer open it.

4) Does anybody else think Iax and Haliax are related somehow? Maybe Lyra desperately anchored Lanre to a name powerful enough to trap the moon when changing his name? Just going on the similarities of their names really.

5) Think there has to be a second trilogy. I think these books are about the creation war resuming, with Kvothe the spark that set the world on fire, again. I think the second trilogy will be about the war itself.

6) The Amyr and the Cthaeh; finally, think Kvothe waits to be killed by the Amyr for his transgressions (especially since finding out about the Cthaeh), but the reverse is true: I think the Amyr & Sithe allowed Kvothe to go to the Cthaeh, and wanted him to restart the creation war, as it's the only way Haliax & the Cthaeh (and the Enemy they serve) will ever be truly defeated; 'for greater good'. I suspect Cthaeh can only influence those it has spoken to and has no control over those who have never seen, nor spoken, to those it has spoken to (otherwise, why would the Sithe be able to trap it? it makes no sense if it can see all futures). Now that Kvothe has fulfilled what the Cthaeh crafts as his destiny, the Amyr & Sithe now send help to break its hold on him, sending Chronicler (via Skarpi, agent of the Amyr) & Bast (agent of the Sithe), who work together to open his Thrice-Locked Chest and free his name (which again fits with the story Kvothe & Bast make up about Chronicler!)

and thats my two cents worth of Wild Speculation. Good thing Dance is coming out this year (kept me happy for a solid week that news has), else I'd be going mad about book 3 already...

[Gaston de Foix]

Regarding Cinder = Bredon:

I suppose it could be the case... but highly doubt it. When we meet Cinder at the bandits, he's spry, moves like liquid (or quicksilver if you remember the scene where Kvothe meets him as a boy after his parents are killed) and he's vaguely recognizable to Kvothe. He takes an arrow in the leg and keeps on moving. Bredon is none of those things, he has dark eyes, he walks with a limp, he's subtle, and obviously very intelligent. Cinder from the two times we've met him is like a common psychopath thug. He taunted a 12 year old boy about killing his parents and was about to finish the boy off himself.

I dunno, it doesn't add up to me. They're very different characters. Haliax is the bad guy that I could see playing a deep game that involves recruiting Kvothe's ladylove to work against him. Cinder would just kill her and then kill Kvothe too.

I agree Cinder=Bredon or Cinder=Master Ash fails. For the following reasons if nothing else. the Cthaeh only speaks the truth, everyone agrees, and he has said that Kvothe has seen Cinder twice in his life. Kvothe has seen Bredon more than twice while playing tak. So logically we can discount that theory. All the clues are there for Bredon=Master Ash. The reference to dancing by both Denna and Bredon, the intelligence and refinement, the pagan ceremonies he performs on his estates, the mention by the Ctaeth of his walking stick as an instrument to beat Denna and the prominent mention of the stick throughout the narrative. Look closely and it will become deliberate.

It seems unlikely to me that Haliax would pay that much attention to Kvothe as to weave a subtle plot to catch him. If he wanted to kill Kvothe at anytime, he could.

He might not even remember Kvothe's existence, right now Haliax and the Chaendrian are the deadliest figures or close to in Kvotheworld and Kvothe has not even mastered the name of the wind. A battle between them would be swift. Kvothe only escapes with his life because of the interference of the Amyr when he is a child. It is implied that the Amyr are about to reach again when Kvothe is attacking the bandit's camp. Cinder raises his head and smells the air in a gesture that resembles the one Haliax made many years ago when the Chandrian killed his parents. Either the references to Tehlu and the angels, including Ordal etc attracted the attention of the Amyr or Kvothe's repeated use of sympathy offensively, but either way Cinder escaped not from Kvothe but from the Amyr.

[Slick Mongoose]

Either the references to Tehlu and the angels, including Ordal etc attracted the attention of the Amyr or Kvothe's repeated use of sympathy offensively, but either way Cinder escaped not from Kvothe but from the Amyr.

That's an interesting one. Maybe prayer works? We know that repeated use of the Chandrian's names attracts their attention, maybe the same is true for the angels?

Edit: But you'd think there would be too many prayers, they'd drown each other out. Hmmmm. :unsure:

[jaerken]

Quick thought... the story "magic" that Denna was talking about.... Applied to a larger scenario, perhaps Chronicler is 'writing' the story down and with Bast's help it will 'make it true' ? I say this because it would be a way for Kvothe and everyone else to see him as a hero again.

This is probably nothing but it strikes me as interesting. In NOTW when Bast talks about "Masks" (The ha'penny king, HE believes HE's an Innkeeper, and a failed one at that) I think the narrative itself serves some purpose as well.

[Slick Mongoose]

Quick thought... the story "magic" that Denna was talking about.... Applied to a larger scenario, perhaps Chronicler is 'writing' the story down and with Bast's help it will 'make it true' ? I say this because it would be a way for Kvothe and everyone else to see him as a hero again.

It's an interesting thought, but I guess that it depends on whether Kvothe actually is the hero of this story or not. :)

[Returned]

I'm pretty damn sure Devi is one of the Amyr. And I'm thinking she's after behind whatever is behind that door in the archives. I have reason to think Bredon might be Amyr too, but of Devi I'm really sure in my gut.

[Gaston de Foix]

It's an interesting thought, but I guess that it depends on whether Kvothe actually is the hero of this story or not. :)

When I read the novel I was certain this idea of writing down something making it come true magic was a line of bullshit spun by Bredon to manipulate Denna. Why do most people find it plausible? Denna is desperately searching for something and Master Ash is using it as a lever to get her to do what he wants, which is to praise the Chandrian and Lanre. We don't know enough right now to postulate a relationship between Master Ash and the Chandrian, although the timing of Master Ash's appearance in Trebon before an attack is suspicious to say the least. I re-read WMF carefully last night, but I found nothing to suggest that it works, apart from the joking story told by Kvothe about Chronicler.