The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Dremora]

As for Kvothe's heart's desire: does the Four Plate Door count as 'beneath the university'?

I don't think so. I think Lax's (or someones) body is behind the door, Elodin made out that it was a BIG secret behind that door and Fela said she dreamt there was a dead king or something behind it. Maybe he's just sleeping (sleeping Barrow king) and he later on kidnaps Auri (who I believe is the princess), but I don't know where the angel would fit in. Infact that could be the king who Kvothe kills.

[Merihathor]

I finally finished WMF so i feel safe joining this thread now.

I have a couple of questions, if they've been asked and answered or discussed a nudge in the right direction would be appreciated.

First - What do you think of Kvothe? One of the most common complaints about characters in the aSoIaF forums is that everything falls to neatly into place for certain characters, specifically Jon and Dany. Surely this applies way more to Kvothe than either of them. In a way it seems that Rothfuss has written a character that every teenager and most adults wish they could be rather than a realistic one. I know if I was as smart as Stephen Hawking, could play guitar like Clapton, fight like Jet Li and fuck like Cassanova my life would be pretty awesome! But thats just wishfull thinking, not realistic.

Second - Does anyone else think that Denna is Netalia Lackless?

1. I found him annoying and had a hard time finding him believable in the first book; he had grown on me by the second. I've come to the conclusion that he's elaborating a bit :-) I'm rereading the books now, and trying to remain objective and see what I think this time around.

2. Netalia Lockless was his mother, actually. Or so the theory stands. When I have a moment, I can find some evidence for you.

[Merihathor]

Many comments and bits of evidence have been dug up on the other threads about this book, but I'm pressed for time tonight, so, a link to another site that has some of the evidence about Netalia Lockless and Kvothe: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/03/sleeping-under-the-wagon-more-spoilers-for-patrick-rothfusss-the-wise-mans-fear

Hope that helps to answer your question :-)

[AverageGuy]

2. Netalia Lockless was his mother, actually. Or so the theory stands. When I have a moment, I can find some evidence for you.

TeaSpoon? caught that with the song his father sang that led to him sleeping under the wagon. It ended with, "It's worth my life to make my wife not tally a lot less."

Not tally a lot less. Netalia Lockless.

Though I also thought it might be Denna until that line was pointed out. Netalia running away with the Ruh had seemed too obvious to me, but I guess I was overthinking it.

ETA: Looking at that Tor link, seems in line with stuff we've caught. Though when I brought up a possible connection between the Edema Ruh and the Adem/Ruach, someone had an argument against it (I don't remember what it was at the moment). However, I do still wonder what link causes certain traveling groups to consider themselves a people separate from other traveling groups.

[Ski the Swift]

TeaSpoon? caught that with the song his father sang that led to him sleeping under the wagon. It ended with, "It's worth my life to make my wife not tally a lot less."

Not tally a lot less. Netalia Lockless.

Though I also thought it might be Denna until that line was pointed out. Netalia running away with the Ruh had seemed too obvious to me, but I guess I was overthinking it.

ETA: Looking at that Tor link, seems in line with stuff we've caught. Though when I brought up a possible connection between the Edema Ruh and the Adem/Ruach, someone had an argument against it (I don't remember what it was at the moment). However, I do still wonder what link causes certain traveling groups to consider themselves a people separate from other traveling groups.

You are a genius, really.

[Silversun]

That is some pretty compelling evidence for Netalia being Kvothes mother. One of the things I noticed was that Meluan is described fairly similar to Denna. Her lips in particular are said to be red without any paint. Finding out she is actually his mother is a much better story though. Especially when you consider the Lackless Box.

Edit: Actually, everything in that link is really interesting. After reading it I think that inside the Lackless box is the Name of the Moon. And I had also noticed the very poetic way Knothe and Denna speak to each other, and loved it. This series just got loads better for me!

[thistlepong]

I'm sure this has been brought up at some point in the past threads, but what are the chances of Auri being a Chandrian? After all, she lives in what seems to be one of the cities. And one of them lives in 'nothing but decay', which could mean that.

I mean I think it's unlikely, but is it impossible? Do we know how long she's been there? After all she's quite young or at least young-looking, but she's been there long enough for Elodin to not know her name, and for there to be general unconcern among the staff that one of there students/patients is missing (though that could be narrative convenience).

Kvothe puts his best guess about Auri's age at, "a few years older than me, certainly no more thean 20." That would put her at a maximum of 17 when he saw the Seven together. He wasn't partuicularly clear about, or apparently interested in, any of them other than Haliax and Cinder. I dunno, it seems like he would have noted something about her appearance and age. Elodin only says it took him years to develop a relationship with her. Like you say: not impossible, but unlikely.

I'm starting to think the story, and he is telling a story, is peppered with this kind of thing. Two examples off the top of my head:

• Auri lives in a decayed city.
  
• Caudicus only has blue flames.
  

And I'm not even sure Shehyn's version is 100% accurate. Stercus is in thrall of iron parses poorly. Grey Dalcenti never speaks is a truly lame sign; and the fellow with the gray beard is the only one who speaks when Kvothe is twelve.

As for Kvothe's heart's desire: does the Four Plate Door count as 'beneath the university'?

You are technically correct; the best kind of correct. The Four Plate door is on Sub-Two. Nice.

Though when I brought up a possible connection between the Edema Ruh and the Adem/Ruach, someone had an argument against it (I don't remember what it was at the moment). However, I do still wonder what link causes certain traveling groups to consider themselves a people separate from other traveling groups.

There's an etymological link between Ruh and Ruach out here in our world. Other than that, there's nothing but a maybe. The Cealdish and the Adem were nomadic. The Ruh and the Tahl are nomadic. The latter define thems with tradition and practices and against bandits and theives particularly?

[Gaston de Foix]

ETA: Looking at that Tor link, seems in line with stuff we've caught. Though when I brought up a possible connection between the Edema Ruh and the Adem/Ruach, someone had an argument against it (I don't remember what it was at the moment). However, I do still wonder what link causes certain traveling groups to consider themselves a people separate from other traveling groups.

I'm reading the Tor link right now... I agree everything there seems to be stuff we have caught on this forum. Except this...

"Given Denna’s mysterious and likely tragic past, her desire for certain secrets, and the unbelievably close parallels between Kvothe and Denna, I sometimes wonder if Denna is on her own mission for knowledge and revenge. I think someone on a forum suggested that perhaps the Amyr, in pursuit of the “greater good,” was responsible for something happening to Denna. That would certainly set the scene for a betrayal. I’m not sure I buy into that theory, but Denna’s definitely involved in something."

In terms of Denna's story we know and I know this is familiar but I like lists and perhaps by putting it all together people will notice something that we've missed about her.

1. She had a letter (maybe from home?)- she was crying.

2. She gave herself to the boy and the boy threw her away.

3. She is determined to learn magic for some reason.

4. She visits Yll.

5. She can't spell very well and she swears in Siaru (kist)?

6. she has extremely low self-esteem.

7. Looking at the girl who was trying to work as a prostitute is like looking at a mirror.

Maybe Denna does have something to do with the Amyr? The image of the Amyr has a burning house and we are told again and again the Amyr have a ruthlessness to them. But why would they kill someone for the greater good? Did they kill Denna's first love because he was a serial seducer of women?

[Gaston de Foix]

You are technically correct; the best kind of correct. The Four Plate door is on Sub-Two. Nice.

Seconded.

It's interesting that we have two doors that may mysteriously let all manner of ills into the world in the novels. The Lackless door clearly is in some part of Vint on their estate. The Four Plate Door is in the library of the University. Which one will Kvothe open?

I also find it a welcome sign of maturity that Kvothe's reaction to the Lockless box is that it's locked to keep something locked up because it might be dangerous. This gives me heart that he won't go haring off to open the Lockless door just for a lark in case the Amyr are through it.

[thistlepong]

Grin, the Amyr will kill someone for greater good.

And the parallells between Denna and Kvothe are almost silly, beginning before they meet and then weaving together.

I don't have the lists of either handy, but...

Amyr

• Gibea performed vivisections for medicine
  
• The Amyr in Kvothe's story is riding to fight to stop a trial
  

Parallells

• Both nearly die from asphyxiation as children
  
• Both lack roots and family
  
• They travel North on the same day
  
• He's trying to learn magic. She's trying to learn magic.
  
• Kvothe starts carrying a Denna-style knife after she displays hers
  
• She goes to Yll/learns Yllish. He learns Yllish.
  
• She meets an Adem. He meets an Adem.
  
• They're both seeking the same story
  
• They're both beholden to folks who beat them
  
• They're both involved in Vintish courts
  

[Rhaegar's Son]

Complete Tangent Warning:

While doing a full re-read of the two novels, I noted the times (especially in tNotW) when Kvothe as narrator makes a remark along the lines of "I would have had better more luck trying to steal the moon." Actually, when I looked up the first quote, I only had to change 'better' there. This quote is referencing his chance of tracking down and killing the Chandrian.

The next quote is actually, "It would be easier for me to get a piece of the moon than that much money." This one came in reference to earning 30 talents for tuition funds.

I know I came across similar remarks elsewhere, but don't have the patience to look...should have kept some clear notes, apparently. Perhaps somebody with a digital text can "Find" the moon in other places for us.

In the second case, Kvothe clearly gains that much money eventually (though at the time he does not). In the first case, we can assume he will succeed at some point, I believe.

So, evidence here for what is behind one of the doors out there?

Another Minor Topic:

Has anyone here had any fruitful pondering on the importance of the bottles Kote/Kvothe own? He pays quite a bit of attention to them, as much as a collector might at the very least. He clearly doesn't need them for his clientele, and he doesn't seem to indulge much...

Lastly, right at the end of WMF, in Bast's room, demon boy enters and immediately looks to the fire where "only ash and cinder are left" (not exact quote, I don't think). Is this proof Kvothe has yet to kill him? Notice that Bast (before Chronicler arrives) keeps looking at the dead fireplace as he settles in for the night.

[ShanRawr]

You could add music to the list of parallels. They are both naturally talented in that area.

Also, has anyone put together a list of all of the 7-word phrases that Denna catches Kvothe saying to her?

[Gaston de Foix]

Complete Tangent Warning:

While doing a full re-read of the two novels, I noted the times (especially in tNotW) when Kvothe as narrator makes a remark along the lines of "I would have had better more luck trying to steal the moon." Actually, when I looked up the first quote, I only had to change 'better' there. This quote is referencing his chance of tracking down and killing the Chandrian.

The next quote is actually, "It would be easier for me to get a piece of the moon than that much money." This one came in reference to earning 30 talents for tuition funds.

I know I came across similar remarks elsewhere, but don't have the patience to look...should have kept some clear notes, apparently. Perhaps somebody with a digital text can "Find" the moon in other places for us.

Another Minor Topic:

Has anyone here had any fruitful pondering on the importance of the bottles Kote/Kvothe own? He pays quite a bit of attention to them, as much as a collector might at the very least. He clearly doesn't need them for his clientele, and he doesn't seem to indulge much...

Lastly, right at the end of WMF, in Bast's room, demon boy enters and immediately looks to the fire where "only ash and cinder are left" (not exact quote, I don't think). Is this proof Kvothe has yet to kill him? Notice that Bast (before Chronicler arrives) keeps looking at the dead fireplace as he settles in for the night.

Fun Factoid.

The moon is mentioned 162 times in WMF alone. This is going to be a time consuming search.

Alright done. Nothing to support your thesis in WMF.

What I want to know about bottles is what's up with elderberry? Kvothe shatters it in NOTW. Bast goes looking for it in WMF. There's clearly something going on.

[thistlepong]

What I want to know about bottles is what's up with elderberry? Kvothe shatters it in NOTW. Bast goes looking for it in WMF. There's clearly something going on.

Tell you what, you figure out what's up with copper and I promise I'll figure that out. Cool?

[lanceschaubert]

Near the start when the guy recognises him as Kvothe it says: The young man’s sentences grew jumbled as he continued, but his face remained earnest. “I knew it couldn’t be you. But I thought it was. Even though. But who else has your hair?” He shook his head, trying unsuccessfully to clear it. “I saw the place in Imre where you killed him. By the fountain. The cobblestones are all shathered.” He frowned and concentrated on the word. “Shattered. They say no one can mend them.”

This might be more important than I thought at first blush, considering Rothfuss' Use of Shattered.

I'm reminded of a phrase Rothfuss used in TNotW, where Kvothe muses on his conversation with Denna: "I spoke too much. I said too little." (paraphrased) Good god was this book bloated. It's interesting to note that the first of the book's two action sequences occurs roughly 200,000 words in (I don't count the pratfalls with Ambrose much in the way of 'action').

Personally, I just liked Kvothe enough and resonated with him in so many ways, the books could have conceivably been about nothing and I might have read them anyway. I told my wife every 100 pages, "...and there's still more!" I just love the characters.

First - What do you think of Kvothe? One of the most common complaints about characters in the aSoIaF forums is that everything falls to neatly into place for certain characters, specifically Jon and Dany. Surely this applies way more to Kvothe than either of them. In a way it seems that Rothfuss has written a character that every teenager and most adults wish they could be rather than a realistic one.

I didn't feel that way. I felt like Kvothe got the living shiz beat out of him at every possible turn. He's always breaking something, always in debt up to his tearducts, always getting kicked out of somewhere. I respect an author who beats the snot out of his main character, only to give him little opportunities to make up for it along the way.

TeaSpoon? caught that with the song his father sang that led to him sleeping under the wagon. It ended with, "It's worth my life to make my wife not tally a lot less."

Not tally a lot less. Netalia Lockless.

Nice.

Grin, the Amyr will kill someone for greater good.

And the parallells between Denna and Kvothe are almost silly, beginning before they meet and then weaving together.

I don't have the lists of either handy, but...

Amyr

• Gibea performed vivisections for medicine
  
• The Amyr in Kvothe's story is riding to fight to stop a trial
  

Parallells

• Both nearly die from asphyxiation as children
  
• Both lack roots and family
  
• They travel North on the same day
  [*]He's trying to learn magic. She's trying to learn magic.
  
• Kvothe starts carrying a Denna-style knife after she displays hers
  
• She goes to Yll/learns Yllish. He learns Yllish.
  
• She meets an Adem. He meets an Adem.
  
• They're both seeking the same story
  
• They're both beholden to folks who beat them
  
• They're both involved in Vintish courts
  

Sorry, gang, I must have missed this in the details, but how do we know Denna's looking for magic? I remember her communicating with Yllish knots in her hair, but where'd the magic thread come from?

[thistlepong]

Sorry, gang, I must have missed this in the details, but how do we know Denna's looking for magic? I remember her communicating with Yllish knots in her hair, but where'd the magic thread come from?

Quibbles.

Proof of searching: Two conversations about written magic wherin she's undeniably interested in it.

Whether she can actually make with the magicking is contested, but we've discussed it in all three threads.

The braid scenes suggest but do not prove success.

The picnic at the stream suggests, again without proving, old-knower style naming.

[lanceschaubert]

I suspected as much, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss something huge. It's definitely not a strong case, but it's interesting anyway.

[Dremora]

She also said at some point when they were arguing "I know things that even the msters don't know" or something along those lines.

[Gaston de Foix]

Tell you what, you figure out what's up with copper and I promise I'll figure that out. Cool?

ok I'll give copper my best shot and you do the same with the bottles. I always start by making a list of relevant quotes...

"It was made of a solid piece of grey stone the same color as the surrounding walls. Its frame was eight

inches wide, also grey, and also one single seamless piece of stone. The door and frame fit together so

tightly that a pin couldn't slide into the crack.

It had no hinges. No handle. No window or sliding panel. Its only features were four hard copper plates.

They were set flush with the face of the door, which was flush with the front of the frame, which was flush

with the wall surrounding it. You could run your hand from one side of the door to the next and hardly

feel the lines of it at all."

"In its center, between the untarnished copper plates, a word was chiseled deep into the stone:

VALARITAS."

"Elodin led me through a long series of hallways to a different wing of the Crockery. Finally we turned a

corner and I saw something new: a door made entirely of copper."

"I noticed

the door didn't even have a handle on the inside, let alone a lock."

"More copper, I

thought. Veins of copper running through the blocks of stone that made the wall."

Wise Man's Fear

"his other hand was hidden by a large round object...I guessed it was his shield....He was hard to do. I got the copper pretty okay here. "

"Lastly he brought out his copper sword, Skyaldrin, and belted"

"Who's ever heard of a copper sword? Copper wouldn't hold an edge. It'd be like trying to kill someone with a big penny"

"iron, fire, mirror-glass, elm and ash and copper knives...the rules of games we play and give us bread to stay away"

he fits the copper key in the iron lock, and the iron key in the copper lock (ok this is a summary-tired from typing up quotes). Please also take this as a reference to Kvothe's thrice locked chest. Obviously it is significant that one of the locks is copper.

My working assumption from the Elodin chapters in NOTW was that copper was somehow nameless or resistant to naming and shaping both. That would explain the following things.

The Four Plate door is protected from being Shaped from without or within. The copper somehow protects the stone from being named and broken.

Taborlin has a copper sword because it is protected from being shaped or named. There is also the other possibility that he had a copper sword because one of the Chandrian had some power over iron but I think this is a better explanation (Q: if copper cannot be shaped or named, how would you get it to hold an edge?)

Second relevant question: how would copper knives protect against the Fae? Iron clearly irritates Bast but he handles the copper lock freely enough. So what difference do copper knives make? Hmm..I don't have an answer for you there.

I am reasonably confident that copper is the metal which cannot be named. That is why Elodin's prison was made out of copper. No other metal was safe. And that should have something to do with the Four Plate Door- after all this was the university where the most powerful namers lived.

That's also why the Amyr carried copper shields . But clearly, copper is a very soft metal which makes it singularly inappropriate for a shield. So why a copper shield? Maybe there's a process for turning copper into an adamantine substance? That would explain the sword and the shield.

[Rhaegar's Son]

I had similar thoughts about copper, but how then is Elodin able to blow out the side of his room when the rocks are veined with copper? I would think such veins would be better at securing surrounding rock that the 4 plates on the aptly named door...

Copper can be work hardened by sandblasting, and I imagine shapers would be able to harden it to degrees we cannot obviously duplicate. Of course, that process would make the metal more brittle. Perhaps copper can be shaped into a hard enough substance to be used in battle but not too brittle so it will resist certain individual(s)'s ability to decay it? Just brainstorming here...don't mind me.

Maybe the copper from Elodin's room fails because it hasn't been through this shaping process, whereas the sword, shield and plates have...