A Clash of Kings Spoilers: The Starks and the War

[Noroldis]

Chirios:

There is. In GOT it's mentioned that he sent most of his cavalry with Jaime.

Like zmflavius, I'd really like to see the quote for this, because I certainly can't remember seeing it during my recent reread of the series in anticipation of Dance.

Hungry Wolf:

WH is a LOT bigger than Lannisport (LP is the size of Barrowton)- which is on the wrong side of continent to have as significant role in trade as WH and KL have.

I'd like to see a quote for this as well. Lannisport may be on the wrong side of the continent for easy access to trade/shipping from across the Narrow Sea, but the lords of the Westerlands are rich thanks to all that gold and so can afford the most expensive goods. That should be reason enough for plenty of trading ships to take the time to go to Lannisport when making a tour of Westeros.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Hungry Wolf:

I'd like to see a quote for this as well. Lannisport may be on the wrong side of the continent for easy access to trade with/from across the Narrow Sea, but the lords of the Westerlands are rich thanks to all that gold and so can afford the most expensive goods. That should be reason enough for plenty of trading ships to take the time to go to Lannisport when making a tour of Westeros.

oh, it is you again :D

no, most sailors probably wouldn't risk days of sailing from Oldtown (Tyrell and Hightower can also pay for their goods) to LP with Squids and storms around but shipments can easily be transported to Casterly Rock trough the Ocean Road

[Noroldis]

oh, it is you again :D

If you're referring to my stated departure from the "Everything is not grey in ASOIAF" thread, then I point out that I said I was abandoning that discussion, not the board. ;)

no, most sailors probably wouldn't risk days of sailing from Oldtown (Tyrell and Hightower can also pay for their goods) to LP with Squids and storms around but shipments can easily be transported to Casterly Rock trough the Ocean Road

So you believe Lannisport to be mostly a relic from the before the Conquest, when the frequent wars between the Seven Kingdoms meant the Lannisters could not be certain that the Gardeners would allow trade meant for the Westerlands to pass through the Reach? That's a possibility, but sea travel is faster and some trading captains might prefer to deal directly with Westerland buyers rather than intermediaries. In any case, I don't believe it's ever mentioned how many (or few) merchant ships sail to or what volume of trade goes through Lannisport compared to the realm's other major ports, so we can't be certain either way.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

If you're referring to my stated departure from the "Everything is not grey in ASOIAF" thread, then I point out that I said I was abandoning that discussion, not the board. ;)

So you believe Lannisport to be mostly a relic from the before the Conquest, when the frequent wars between the Seven Kingdoms meant the Lannisters could not be certain that the Gardeners would allow trade meant for the Westerlands to pass through the Reach? That's a possibility, but sea travel is faster and some trading captains might prefer to deal directly with Westerland buyers rather than intermediaries. In any case, I don't believe it's ever mentioned how many (or few) merchant ships sail to or what volume of trade goes through Lannisport compared to the realm's other major ports, so we can't be certain either way.

i am referring every time there was discussion about war in Riverlands and Stark cause you were there

as for LP you are correct, it's size and portion of trade it holds are never mentioned, it is most important settlement in Westerlands but it just doesn't strike me as decent rival to KL, White Harbor and Oldtown

[Noroldis]

i am referring every time there was discussion about war in Riverlands and Stark cause you were there

What can I say, I like medieval warfare. :)

as for LP you are correct, it's size and portion of trade it holds are never mentioned, it is most important settlement in Westerlands but it just doesn't strike me as decent rival to KL, White Harbor and Oldtown

I certainly agree that Lannisport handles less trade than King's Landing and Oldtown. It was you ranking it below White Harbor that puzzled me.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

What can I say, I like medieval warfare. :)

I certainly agree that Lannisport handles less trade than King's Landing and Oldtown. It was you ranking it below White Harbor that puzzled me.

1. it is closer to Ibben and Free Cities

2. it is 3rd largest city in Westeros

[Noroldis]

1. it is closer to Ibben and Free Cities

It may be closer, but the lords of the Westerlands are richer than those of the North.

2. it is 3rd largest city in Westeros

And where is that mentioned?

[zmflavius]

1. it is closer to Ibben and Free Cities

Ibben is famous for being a whaling island with wood on it. It'd be like Bear Island having valued exports. And why should the Free cities trade at a small city when they could trade at a large city. It's always better to trade where there's more demand, so trade is proportional. And furthermore, you ignore the fact that Lannisport has valuable exports (gold and goldwork) while White Harbor's exports are fish, wood, and fur.

@zmflavius

WH is a LOT bigger than Lannisport (LP is the size of Barrowton)- which is on the wrong side of continent to have as significant role in trade as WH and KL have.

Even if someone decides to sail around Westeros it would be easier to sell cargo in Oldtown, Lannisport is just to connect Westerlands with Oldtown and Dorne

as for upkeep of the army - they have enough gold to buy anything as long as there is anyone to sell ,but after Tywin went further and left remaining Piper and Vance's men behind it became extremely hard to find any merchant coming from the west - i think even Tywin lost a pound or two

Lannisport is the closest port to the biggest gold mines. If they were to trade for gold anywhere else, it would be more expensive than even the cost of sailing to Lannisport from Oldtown. And I'm not entirely certain what you mean in the second part, care to elaborate?

as for population along King's Road - after it passes Twins it enters the Neck which is one big, dangerous swamp - immediately after it enters Barrowlands - hill area not as fertile as is the case with the Rills or eastern part of the North - and when passing Barrowlands it goes nowhere near Barrowton or Torrhen's Square to be able to see anyone - after Barrowlands there is only small portion of Wolfswood and then Winterfell

Are you arguing for high populaton or against high population?

as for luck in the Vale - Redfort or Templeton would simply have imprisoned Lysa and acted as Robert's guardians, Royce is too loyal to question Lady Cow

Hence why the Vale lords would not have stirred.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

It may be closer, but the lords of the Westerlands are richer than those of the North.

And where is that mentioned?

no, Tywin is richer, mines are his --- would Brax be richer than Manderly just because Tywin is richer than Eddard????

anyway why would someone bypass entire continent if he has harbor , no, four harbors (WH, Gulltown,KL and Oldtown, where he can sell his goods just to get to Lannisport

i don't think it is mentioned in books, i also thought it was odd but i found it on page similar to this, can't remember the name

@zmflavius - i'm only stating possible reasons why Robert didn't see many people along the road

[zmflavius]

no, Tywin is richer, mines are his --- would Brax be richer than Manderly just because Tywin is richer than Eddard????

anyway why would someone bypass entire continent if he has harbor , no, four harbors (WH, Gulltown,KL and Oldtown, where he can sell his goods just to get to Lannisport

i don't think it is mentioned in books, i also thought it was odd but i found it on page similar to this, can't remember the name

@zmflavius - i'm only stating possible reasons why Robert didn't see many people along the road

But your description covers the most heavily populated parts of the North, the southron part. And as I mentioned, where do you think gold is cheaper, WH or LP? Lannisport is where they mine the stuff, so it almost certainly is cheaper, and when you consider how they're on the wrong side of the continent, they have to make it even cheaper to attract gold traders. And putting all that aside, Manderly, for all his supposed wealth, was able to send only 1500 levies to Robb, with a few hundred knights. That makes him one of Robb's more powerful bannermen, but certainly not Westerman rich.

[Noroldis]

no, Tywin is richer, mines are his --- would Brax be richer than Manderly just because Tywin is richer than Eddard????

We know the lords of the Westerlands are generally richer than the northern lords because Tywin's army had a lot more armored cavalry, which are hugely expensive. This means that those cavalrymen's lords could afford to outfit them better - Tywin certainly didn't pay for the outfitting and mounts of all those cavalrymen out of his own pocket.

anyway why would someone bypass entire continent if he has harbor , no, four harbors (WH, Gulltown,KL and Oldtown, where he can sell his goods just to get to Lannisport

Because, as zmflavius mentions, Lannisport offers high-value goods (gold, goldwork) that are unavailable elsewhere. Besides, who says that the trader ships have to ignore the rest of Westeros for Lannisport? The ships can simply visit all the harbors one by one and pick up/trade for specific goods at each port, say, wool at White Harbor, summerwine at Oldtown, and goldwork at Lannisport.

i don't think it is mentioned in books, i also thought it was odd but i found it on page similar to this, can't remember the name

Well, then you can understand why I remain skeptical that White Harbor is the third largest city in Westeros.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

But your description covers the most heavily populated parts of the North, the southron part. And as I mentioned, where do you think gold is cheaper, WH or LP? Lannisport is where they mine the stuff, so it almost certainly is cheaper, and when you consider how they're on the wrong side of the continent, they have to make it even cheaper to attract gold traders. And putting all that aside, Manderly, for all his supposed wealth, was able to send only 1500 levies to Robb, with a few hundred knights. That makes him one of Robb's more powerful bannermen, but certainly not Westerman rich.

yeah, if i remember correctly it is from Cat chapter from AGOT, even she knew he could muster a much larger force (reason for such small numbers is not inability to provide larger force, it is Lord Wyman's

political games)

and gold isn't cheaper in Westerlands than it is anywhere else - one golden dragon is worth everywhere the same - maidenhood of Rosey

[zmflavius]

yeah, if i remember correctly it is from Cat chapter from AGOT, even she knew he could muster a much larger force (reason for such small numbers is not inability to provide larger force, it is Lord Wyman's

political games)

and gold isn't cheaper in Westerlands than it is anywhere else - one golden dragon is worth everywhere the same - maidenhood of Rosey

I've checked the chapter. There's no such quote. Unless you mean that Wyman is staying in WH not because he's so fat he has to be carried by litter everywhere to go but because he's in cahoots with the Lannisters and knows that if he showed up at the battlefield, with his thirty stone that can't sit a horse and his warhammer of awesomeness, he would instantly win the war for Robb?

I'm not talking about gold coins, I'm talking about gold. As in, the stuff that Lannister peasants dig out of the ground that hasn't been minted into coin yet. Where do you think the golden dragons come from? Given the mines of the Lannisters, it's kind of obvious where a vast amount of the raw materials for these dragons is from. Furthermore, gold isn't just for coin, but also for jewelry and stuff. Suppose a trader sells a gold medallion to a Khal at Vaes Dothrak. Or makes him a gift of it, however you like. Do you think the gift that the Khal gives the trader is going to be more than the going price of an equivalent amount of gold in Lannisport or less? Have you ever played Tradewinds? Basically, you buy goods and then sell them for a profit. Now suppose that the trader buys 1 kg of Lannister gold for say, 1000 gold dragons. Do you think this kilogram of gold will be worth more if he sells it after traveling to Oldtown or after traveling to Braavos. If he could get the same price in Oldtown as in Braavos, then he would only sell the gold in Oldtown, because he wouldn't have to spend as much time and money as it takes to travel to Braavos as he would to have to travel to Oldtown. But let's suppose the Braavosi have a demand for gold. Because Oldtown is closer to Lannisport, Lannisport will sell more gold there. Since the Braavosi have a large demand for gold, the price will be driven up, to attract traders who used to travel to Oldtown. Gold will be worth more in one place than in another. Hurray for economics!

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

We know the lords of the Westerlands are generally richer than the northern lords because Tywin's army had a lot more armored cavalry, which are hugely expensive. This means that those cavalrymen's lords could afford to outfit them better - Tywin certainly didn't pay for the outfitting and mounts of all those cavalrymen out of his own pocket.

Because, as zmflavius mentions, Lannisport offers high-value goods (gold, goldwork) that are unavailable elsewhere. Besides, who says that the trader ships have to ignore the rest of Westeros for Lannisport? The ships can simply visit all the harbors one by one and pick up/trade for specific goods at each port, say, wool at White Harbor, summerwine at Oldtown, and goldwork at Lannisport.

Well, then you can understand why I remain skeptical that White Harbor is the third largest city in Westeros.

Average northern Lord has never seen tournament, he thinks putting armor on horse is crazy and extravagant, his horse only serves him as mean of transportation, he has strong beard, is very muscular and his general behavior is oddly resembling that of Roy Keane at his wildest, he also has the habit of scaring the shit of everyone when after few drinks he angrily starts swinging with his greatsword in big arcs. He is pretty popular among northern chicks - partially proven by his few "Snow" progeny. On the days when he is not dealing justice with his sword he makes sure there are no foreign cattle on his land - if he happens to find foreign cattle he makes sure that cattle is not foreign anymore. Every month or so several wildlings learn hard way it is best to avoid his lands, his cattle and his women. Shit, it is best to avoid air if he decides it belongs to him. He extremely dislikes Night Watch deserters and last one he caught was sent to Castle Black in peaces. At least Old Bear's raven had something to look forward to. Every time after he massacres deserter for some unknown reason he gets depressed and his men have quickly learned that the best way to get him in shape is to take him to nearby town to brothel to local whores' immense delight - he even gets discount in form of two girls for the price of one. A lot of tears is shed when he leaves. He has 3-5 legitimate children and one or two he suspect to be his; tall, strong, clever, smart-mouth and disturbingly violent when they drink. His heart's only desire, his muse, his Sun, Moon and stars - otherwise known as the Lady - stopped asking questions about his excursions long time ago and is content to rule castle with iron hand - a consolation prize since she has weak spot for her husband and cannot hold his balls in her iron grip.

Average southern knight wears shiny armor, has fancy shiny shield and fancy shiny sword, southern knight's horse wears shiny armor and sometimes is easier to look into the sun than in this shiny duo. He also has not so shiny, half-starved page that has magical power to make all those things shiny, and travels from tournament to tournament just to provide enough money from rewards for food and for repair of his shiny equipment. He is clean shaven, with pussy "David Beckham" voice, he knows to dance 14 most popular dances, shaves his legs and chest every month and thinks he is Seven's gift to ladies. All good things come in small portions so he has very high opinion of his performance in bed - those precious five minutes of it. He is also frightened when sees mice or spider, but naturally hides that from anyone other than his page who had to save him in several nasty occasions. His biggest ambition is to find some naive Lord and marry his daughter or to capture some powerful Lord for ransom in some war, but for now settles with escorting desperate merchants between tourneys. He thinks Vale is too dangerous, Dorne too hot, he doesn't like the smell of King's Landing and thinks Stormlords are violent brutes and is outraged with prices in Oldtown brothels. He still hasn't been in other regions.

...and that is the reason Tywin had more armored knights than Robb

as for Lannisport you may be right but i think White Harbor is also prominent economical element and not to be taken lightly

[zmflavius]

Average northern Lord has never seen tournament, he thinks putting armor on horse is crazy and extravagant, his horse only serves him as mean of transportation, he has strong beard, is very muscular and his general behavior is oddly resembling that of Roy Keane at his wildest, he also has the habit of scaring the shit of everyone when after few drinks he angrily starts swinging with his greatsword in big arcs. He is pretty popular among northern chicks - partially proven by his few "Snow" progeny. On the days when he is not dealing justice with his sword he makes sure there are no foreign cattle on his land - if he happens to find foreign cattle he makes sure that cattle is not foreign anymore. Every month or so several wildlings learn hard way it is best to avoid his lands, his cattle and his women. Shit, it is best to avoid air if he decides it belongs to him. He extremely dislikes Night Watch deserters and last one he caught was sent to Castle Black in peaces. At least Old Bear's raven had something to look forward to. Every time after he massacres deserter for some unknown reason he gets depressed and his men have quickly learned that the best way to get him in shape is to take him to nearby town to brothel to local whores' immense delight - he even gets discount in form of two girls for the price of one. A lot of tears is shed when he leaves. He has 3-5 legitimate children and one or two he suspect to be his; tall, strong, clever, smart-mouth and disturbingly violent when they drink. His heart's only desire, his muse, his Sun, Moon and stars - otherwise known as the Lady - stopped asking questions about his excursions long time ago and is content to rule castle with iron hand - a consolation prize since she has weak spot for her husband and cannot hold his balls in her iron grip.

Average southern knight wears shiny armor, has fancy shiny shield and fancy shiny sword, southern knight's horse wears shiny armor and sometimes is easier to look into the sun than in this shiny duo. He also has not so shiny, half-starved page that has magical power to make all those things shiny, and travels from tournament to tournament just to provide enough money from rewards for food and for repair of his shiny equipment. He is clean shaven, with pussy "David Beckham" voice, he knows to dance 14 most popular dances, shaves his legs and chest every month and thinks he is Seven's gift to ladies. All good things come in small portions so he has very high opinion of his performance in bed - those precious five minutes of it. He is also frightened when sees mice or spider, but naturally hides that from anyone other than his page who had to save him in several nasty occasions. His biggest ambition is to find some naive Lord and marry his daughter or to capture some powerful Lord for ransom in some war, but for now settles with escorting desperate merchants between tourneys. He thinks Vale is too dangerous, Dorne too hot, he doesn't like the smell of King's Landing and thinks Stormlords are violent brutes and is outraged with prices in Oldtown brothels. He still hasn't been in other regions.

...and that is the reason Tywin had more armored knights than Robb

as for Lannisport you may be right but i think White Harbor is also prominent economical element and not to be taken lightly

In all honesty, few knights (using the term to represent armoured horse in general) use barding from what we've read. Having said that, your description of the North fits less what we've seen, and more the southron stereotype of Northron as big dumb brutes, and which really only fits the Greatjon, who is considered to behave egregiously and over the top by everyone. The stereotype certainly does not fit any White Harbor knight, the most southron of the houses, or for that matter, any of the houses in the "South North," the houses of the North in the general southern part of the North, which is heavily southronized. For example, the Tallharts and the Cerwyns don't seem especially northron at all, apart from worshiping the old gods. That, in fact, doesn't even apply to Helman Tallhart, who worships the Seven. There are other southernized houses, such as Cassel, which also seems to worship the Seven. Nor are the Northron houses completely the polar opposites of Southron houses in custom, bastards receive the same short shrift in the north, with the exception of them not being entirely forgotten. However, parents do clearly make efforts to distance themselves from their bastards, from what we can see. Furthermore, Ned Stark is, by your definitions, a very uptight Southron lord, given how he's not one who enjoys bawdy jokes, but holds to Southron honour. Furs are common, as well as harshness towards deserters, as a geographical cause rather than a cultural cause: The Northron are closer to the Wall, so naturally they are friendlier, and most deserters have to pass through their lands first anyways, at which point they're caught and beheaded. And in a cold climate, it's probably a good idea to wear furs, regardless of how unfashionable it might be. There also is a Ser Mark Ryswell at the ToJ, and Ryswell is a South North house. But all that pales to the fact that Maester Luwin places great emphasis on the fact that "A man’s worth is not marked by a ser before his name.” While this could be interpreted any number of ways, Maester Luwin shortly makes it clear that a "Northron lance" is the equal, roughly, of a Southron lance, as he equates the “Three hundred, perhaps four …" knights with the "three thousand armored lances who are not knights.” On a side note, they clearly wear armour, contrary to your claim above, and the number of Southronized Northron is apparently as many as 10% of the North, no small minority. But my point basically is, Northron nobles are not that unusual.

Having said that...

The knight in shining armour stereotype is no less pervasive in the south as it is in the North, if Sansa and Jeyne Poole are anyone to judge by. However, virtually no adult subscribes to such a foolish notion, especially since it's worth a barrel of warm piss. Your "shiny knights" with their shiny arms and armour, and their "shiny pages" are virtually unknown outside of the Reach, which plays virtually no part in the part of the war we are discussing currently. And even there, we get such kind and honorable nobles such as Randyll Tarly, Ser Steffon Fossoway, and Lord Alester Florent. The shaven legs and chest strike me as singularly inappropriate given that most of the Reach nobles are not camp gay stereotypes, and neither is Loras Tyrell revered above all for his youthful beauty (except among the Bieber-fan equivalents of Westeros) but for his strength in lance and sword. Your exclusion of the Storm and the Vale, as if they somehow lie north of the neck, and not south as they really are also strikes me as unusual. Have Stormlords and Lords of the Vale never been in their own regions, but spent their entire lives in the Reach? Surely you do not believe that every Lord of the Vale is Ser Lyn Corbray, every Storm Lord is Robert Baratheon, and that every Westerlord is Jaime Lannister. Your definiton of a typical Southron knight as a knight-errant is also unusual, as the term for knight-errant in most places all over Westeros is "hedge knight" and which is not at all a flattering term. Most knights are sworn to a lord, and when not serving said lord in court or in tourneys, where they do not distinguish themselves as overly different from Northron lords, are tending their land or farming.

And do recall, that in ASOIAF of all places, you should not expect the world to be exactly as it is in the songs with gallant knights in the south, and furry barbarians in the north.

And so, that is not the reason he has more armoured knights than Robb, because Tywin has more armoured knights not because hedge knights have confused Lord Tywin with the Knight of Flowers, but because he can afford to feed more.

Of course it is not to be taken lightly. But a city whose main exports are fish, fowl, and wood is certainly not on par with economic superpowers such as KL, Lannisport, or Oldtown.

[Ahmrogar]

I didn't remember. But they still have merchant ships, and experienced sailors. Use the gold to pay off the merchant, re-equip the merchant ships as warships and have at it.

The plan I came up with calls for Robb to try and sway the Vale after he's captured Tywin, a plan that would've/could've worked had he explained it to Edmure. And I'm not talking about Lysa, I'm talking about the Lords of the Vale, I'm talking specifically about Bronze Yohn, who is highly sympathetic to the Starks. I'm talking about ravens and messengers in the dark, suggesting that Lysa has lost her mind, and that it would be "best" for the Vale if Robb took in Lord Arryn as a ward.

Look at the map. Robb doesn't need to face Tywin in a head on battle. He needs to strangle Tywin by locking him up trying to get him to march after Ribb's troops. Yes, Tywin does outnumber Robb, but most of that number is infantry. Peasants, who aren't well trained, better equipped, but badly trained. Robb has more horsemen than Tywin does, because Tywin sent nearly all of his horse with Jaime to Riverrun. So Robb has his men, on horseback, march through the Westerlands, burning as they go. The peasants of the Westerlands head north, running into Tywin's army, who are marching on foot, with no food. Meanwhile the Men of the Riverlands march into the Westerlands after Lord Tywin. All the while Robb's scouts and soldiers are bleeding Tywin with hit and run attacks. How well do you think Tywin's soldiers will fight when they haven't slept for days or weeks? When they've been marching for weeks without food or water? And when Tywin does fight Robb on the field, how long do you think they'll stand against an army that's been fighting constantly for the last year? Fighting with a charismatic general, who are well fed and who are drunk on glory and power.

Of course this requires Robb to make good decisions, but he's shown himself to be a capable tactician before and there's no reason to think he wouldn't be able to do the same.

Again, no it isn't. His troops are mostly infantry, his well equipped and veteran troops died when they fought Robb at the battle of the Trident. And as for the numbers, look at the map. The Westerlands are mostly hills and mountains, numbers only count when you can surround your enemy, something which it's going to be very, very difficult to do.

Tywin is in a very bad position if he marches on Robb, because he has numbers but Robb has maneuverablility. Which means that Robb essentially has free reign to choose the field of battle.

If Tywin was captured or killed by Robb then the West wouldn't be in a position to reject Stannis. The Vale could be won over, not Lysa but certainly her bannermen who are already disgruntled by her decision not to assist Robb, the Riverlands are a ruin but they wouldn't remain so since the lord of the Riverrun would be free to head back to their lands and rebuild. The Ironborn would be a hassle until Stannis could pacify the Reach, and Robb would have to deal with that, but if Stannis wins then there's a large fleet that he has and is able to use to attack the Ironborn for breaking the Kings Peace. The merchant ships of the Lannisters could be used as a makeshift fleet, or Robb could order the building of his own fleet.

No there aren't. If Stannis captures KL, he kills Joff, Tommen, Cersei, possibly Tyrion, and Myrcella. He does so because the children are "abominations borne of incest" and Cersei is a traitor. He might offer to pardon Tyrion, but Tyrion would likely refuse and die as a result.

The point of the thread isn't what Robb would've done, the point is what he should've done.

The Vale only really comes into play if Stannis or Renly fail in taking Kings Landing. We know that's an option, based on Tyrions plans to destroy the fleet, but Robb doesn't know that. And if they do, Robb can point out that as a result of Jon's death Lysa has gone batshit, and that the Lords of the Vale have a duty to remove her as (regent? what's the term?) in order to make his child a strong and capable leader. He'll probably have to offer some stuff, and make it seem as though he isn't being a self-serving greedy douche, but it could be done since he knows and we know that the Lords of the Vale are very angry about not being allowed to take part in the war.

Myrcella, Tommen and Joffrey are dead if Stannis takes KL. There's no way he'd allow them to live as they are in his words "abominations". Also if he takes Kings Landing there's no reason to believe he'd give any of them to Dorne even if he did let them live, and finally this isn't about what Robb would do, this is about what Robb should do, and one of the first things he should do is put an end to the King in the North business.

Tommen and Myrcella are dead. Tywin would be captured/dead if Robb's plan succeeded. The North would be bleeding, but a lot more slowly than you think, the Ironborn would stop being able to bleed the North as soon as/if Robb was able to return with his army. Also, we can't assume that Stannis would take the throne. From the point of view of what Robb should have done we should concern ourselves only with what Robb knows. We know that Stannis has magic, Robb doesn't, so it's equally if not more likely that Renly would take the throne. If Renly takes the throne, Robb doesn't have to worry about the Reach, if Stannis takes the throne, Robb and Stannis will march and pacify it. If Renly takes the throne, Robb uses the Royal Navy plus any ships he can commandeer off'f the Lannister lands and pacifies the Iron Islands, if Stannis takes the throne, Robb takes the Royal Navy plus any ships he can commandeer off'f the Lannister lands and Stannis's fleet and pacifies the Iron Islands.

It seems to me to be abundantly clear you had no idea of the situation that Westeros was in, misjudging:

the number and quality of Tywin's host, the control of terrain in the Westlands (see Golden Tooth), the political climate of the Vale, the location of Myrcella and Tommen, the naval power of the Westlands, and indeed the very character of Robb, Stannis and the lords of the Vale.

Even getting one of these things wrong is bad enough and potentially disastrous for decision making, but I can't see how you could even claim to have a coherent and effective strategy without acknowledging these things.

Now, I will debate this if you admit where you were wrong and if you still want to discuss the prospects of a Stark victory. But, otherwise, there really is no point to this discussion.

[Luin]

As long as this is a what if, what if the Starks didn't make Tyrion Lannister hate them? It was Tyrion who defeated Stannis (great work Cat and Lysa).

[John (Snow) Doe]

Robb's critical flaw was that he never defined exactly what 'victory' entailed. While the Lannisters fought with the explicit goal of eliminating all contenders to the Iron Throne, the question remains: what exactly was Robb fighting for?

Usurping the Lannister's hold on the Iron Throne would've been a realizable goal if he had been willing to ally with Renly and/or Stannis and bow to them. Instead, Robb allowed himself to be swept up in the King of the North movement, and by the end, he was apparently fighting for Northern independence. But fighting to hold the Riverlands is not an action that much facilitates the movement for Northern independence. Robb was essentially fighting a series of battles against the Lannisters for no apparent reason other than avenging his father; while he won every formal battle he fought, over the course of a war, all this did was weaken his strength and wear on his allies' allegiance.

If Robb wanted to establish an independent Northern state, he should've withdrawn at the end of AGoT and held the Neck. If Robb wanted to finish off the Lannisters, he should've allied with Renly/Stannis and accepted that the North would stay part of the 7 Kingdoms, and he'd surrender his crown. These goals were self-exclusive.

By having an explicit goal of eliminating the Stark threat, the Lannisters had a tremendous advantage. They could never occupy the North for its size and unruly indigent population, but all they needed to finish off Robb was a Northern lord willing to defect - enter Roose Bolton. They never needed to win many battles outright, so their demand for resources and men was much less. And most of the war was fought on or near their native soil.

Robb had no idea of what 'victory' meant, so it could hardly be achieved.

[Noroldis]

Hungry Wolf:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say or prove with your latest response to me, beyond, as zmflavius points out, false cultural stereotypes about southern and northern lords and knights. Tywin has more armored horse than Robb because the lords of the Westerlands can afford to outfit/train/feed more of them than than the northern lords, meaning that on average they're richer than the northern lords.

John (Snow) Doe:

Robb's apparent goal of maintaining the independence of his kingdom was doomed in the long run because the Riverlands are easily accessible from all directions, and sooner rather than later the winner of the Iron Throne was going to march to bring the Riverlands to heel. Now, if Robb had declared just the North independent, he might have had a shot thanks to its geographic isolation and ease of defending against land armies.

[Nukelavee]

Um, I really have a problem with some of the assumptions about the quality of Northern troops vs Western.

Under feudal systems, each vassal is responsible for maintaining a certain number of fully equiped troops as part of their obligations to their overlord. Being a "baron" or housecarl, or even the holder of a towerhouse/village meant having the same basic equipement for war. As professional warriors, whose lives and positions are based on being the core of an army, one would expect these men to have the best armour and weapons they could afford - their lives depend on it.

The major difference in the books between a knight of the West, and a bannerman of the north? The west (and most of the south) go for elaborate fancy pretty armour. Did all those ruby's on a certain dragon's armour make it better armour? Did that knight of the Vale's pretty armour make much of a differnce to Bronn?

The biggest part of any of these armies is the infantry, which is made of up levies from basically peasants - Who do you think HAS to spend more money on getting some basic gear for those levies, the Lannisters who are grabbing huge numbers of men from a "peaceful" province, or the North, where virtually every hut has a spear or sword to deal with wilding's and the like, or bows for hunting and trapping, compared to farmers and miners in teh West?

Basically - Lannister gold does not automatically mean Lannister forces are better equipped. The knight's have prettier armour, they have more foot...but pretty gold armour isn't better than plain, and arming 20,000 farmers and miners takes more money than fielding 10k hunters. Plus, much of the Lannister gold goes directly to details, luxuries, bribes and gifts - not weapons and armour.

As for trade - Lannisport is a VERY long distance from foriegn trade - traders from the Free Cities must navigate around the entire continent. It's definately worth the trip for luxuries, but bulk goods, the majority of trade, will arrive and ship from the other coast...and NOTHING comes from the west across the Sunset Sea.

Plus, writing off the north's troops as grunting buffoons is just such a weak tactic it's not worth discussing.

Robb's failure comes from a lot of factors, but he was always crippled by numbers and geography, particularly he was hamstrung by the Twins. Having to suck up to the Freys simply to reach his enemies AND maintain a link to home meant he had to give up the biggest plum in his wallet too early - choosing a queen.