wolfeyoung Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Dragons are mythical creatures and therefore have no real-life counterpart to use as an example. So, I'll have to go to the beginning of the Fantasy genre to argue the power of a dragon.Tolkien, The HobbitSmaug was only killable by shooting him in a very specific place. A thousand arrows, a million arrows, it doesn't matter. Dragon scales cannot be penetrated by arrows. It requires special knowledge of dragon anatomy to know how to kill a dragon, something I would assume the Targs kept to themselves, assuming they even knew it in the first place.Dragons are fast and can fly high, extremely if need be. A dragon can fly above the range of any catapult and then swoop down in a dive bomb attack and destroy whatever heavy device used to attack it. Large constructions like that are hard to move and aim, giving any dragon time to fly up, around, swoop down, attack and then fly up high again. All they would need to do is send someone to scout the castle, map out the placement and aim of heavy weaponry and then just send the dragons in to attack all blind spots.Also, the Targs didn't use just three dragons. They did have armies of people too. Typically outnumbered, but footmen all the same.Also, just to pull a little D & D into this, though I'm uncertain if it applicable, there is always dragon fear. Magical or not, seeing a dragon for the first time will cause anyone to pause and become scared, if only for a few seconds. But in a battle, those few seconds may be the difference in life or death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinytoyrobots Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Also, just to pull a little D & D into this, though I'm uncertain if it applicable, there is always dragon fear. Magical or not, seeing a dragon for the first time will cause anyone to pause and become scared, if only for a few seconds. But in a battle, those few seconds may be the difference in life or death. While the supernatural nature of D&D dragon fear may not apply, I think the general concept is very relevant. Many of these battles turn when one side or the other breaks, the line no longer hold, and discipline is lost. 30,000 conscripts standing in a line and holding together is a very different (and more difficult) proposition than 30,000 conscripts who are running around screaming because a massive dragon just burned a big chunk of their line into ashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 That is quite good question. I've wondered that myself. Aegon had 11000 men (Field of Fire), most of them conscripts from previous battles, and of doubtful loyalty and morale. So the whole argument that Aegon had an army is moot, when you compare those numbers to the whole 7 kingdoms. Dragons seem "overpowered", or so to speak. The assassination idea is valid - of course the dragon would be very hard to kill even while on ground, but two clean blows to the eyes from assassins and dragon is as good as dead. I can accept that dragons are magnificent beasts and game changers, but I'd be more satisfied if George gave Aegon some more backbone to his army in terms of sheer numbers at least.The thing is though, these are dragons. The Targs wouldn't just make it easy for the dragons to be hit, and that's ignoring the possibility that the dragons wake up and roast said assassin. Barring a faceless man or Ezio, I'm not seeing how they can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garth Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Picture yourself as a knight readying for a battle against the Targaryens. Your line is mounted up and you are preparing to attack. Suddenly, a giant lizard streaks overhead, about 600 feet up to so (out of bowrange), laying down fire and cooking 1/4 of your line in their armor.Are you going to be standing there waiting for the 2nd pass?A dragon is a weapon of fear even more than its ability to kill. I can't imagine rival armies lasting very long against something that seems unbeatable such as a dragon. Could a strategy be devised to stop them? Possibly...but since no one had ever fought these beasts before and everyone who did try got roasted, any strategy would be a *massive* risk and your army would likely rout unless you scored a very early victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emo Jon Snow Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 This is a weird discussion, we're talking about the believability of dragons during warfare in a fantasy novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 This is a weird discussion, we're talking about the believability of dragons during warfare in a fantasy novel.For convenience, everyone please feel free to copy and paste the sentiment of this post to the vast majority of the threads on this board. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livewyre Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Also look at how one direwolf affected battle. A direwolf is nowhere as deadly as a dragon, yet it helped Robb a ton in battle and was only roughly a year old. If the sight of a wolf terrorized even a handful of soldiers, imagine what a huge beast flying in the air breathing fire would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I can imagine what goes through the mind of any assassin who actually manages to sneak through all the guards to the sleeping dragons.It basically comes down to this:"What the fuck do i do now?"It's not like you can sneak a massive axe through the camp, you've just got your wee knife. I think that most of the poeple would just go "Fuck this" and walk away. And those who do go through with it. What are you going to do, prod the massive dragon with your knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I can imagine what goes through the mind of any assassin who actually manages to sneak through all the guards to the sleeping dragons.It basically comes down to this:"What the fuck do i do now?"It's not like you can sneak a massive axe through the camp, you've just got your wee knife. I think that most of the poeple would just go "Fuck this" and walk away. And those who do go through with it. What are you going to do, prod the massive dragon with your knife.I think a spear would be better for what I'm about to describe. Possibly a pike.No, you sneak through the camp, past all the sentries, past all the guards near the commander's tent, to wherever the dragon is (presumably close to the commander's tent), don't wake up the Targ whose dragon this is, since he's probably close to the dragon, enter the sleeping area, go right up to the head, climb the dragon's head, hope you don't wake it up, climb onto it's nose so you can reach the eye, try and gently, gently now, pry open an eye, hope that doesn't wake it up, and while holding up an eyelid the size of...I guess that since the head can swallow a horse, then, the eye is probably the size of a...rather large plate, and then stick your pike into the eye and into the brain. And then, assuming that when the dragon starts roaring in pain and throws you to the ground, you don't break your neck, you somehow make it out of the camp without being tortured to death by the Targaryens using ingenious torture techniques imported from the Freehold, and accept your bounty for such a mission from King Mern of the Reach, a chest full of under-sized Gardener King gold pieces.Or several chests, considering what you went through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I think a spear would be better for what I'm about to describe. Possibly a pike.No, you go right up to the head, hope you don't wake it up, climb onto it's nose so you can reach the eye, try and gently, gently now, pry open an eye, hope that doesn't wake it up, and while holding up an eyelid the size of...I guess that since the head can swallow a horse, then, the eye is probably the size of a...rather large plate, and then stick your pike into the eye and into the brain. And then, assuming that when the dragon starts roaring in pain and throws you to the ground, you don't break your neck, you somehow make it out of the camp without being tortured to death by the Targaryens using ingenious torture techniques imported from the Freehold, and accept your bounty for such a mission from King Mern of the Reach, a chest full of under-sized Gardener King gold pieces.Or several chests, considering what you went through.This all relies on a dragon, supposedly smart creatures not noticing someone walking on its face.The only way i can think of getting through the camp and killing the dragon is this:Cut open an auroch about to be given to the dragons as munch. Hide inside it with your sword then wait until Balerion swallows it whole and hope that dragons don't have stomach acid. Then kill it from the inside out. Not sure you manage to get to safety after that but then to be fair this isn't the most watertight plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentat Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Probably the same way you conquer Africa with just a few thousand dudes with Maxim Guns or South America with just a few hundred dudes with swords, horses, and lances.This is a very good example. Pizarro's victories against armies that outnumbered him vastly may seem ridiculous from our perspective, but they actually happened.Smaug was only killable by shooting him in a very specific place. A thousand arrows, a million arrows, it doesn't matter. Dragon scales cannot be penetrated by arrows. It requires special knowledge of dragon anatomy to know how to kill a dragon, something I would assume the Targs kept to themselves, assuming they even knew it in the first place.On the other hand Earendil killed effing Ancalagon with a bow and arrow and without any hobbit whispering him his secret vulnerable spot. Both scenes are ludicrous, though. You shouldn't be able to kill something that big with an arrow. It's like trying to kill a horse with a needle.Dragons are fast and can fly high, extremely if need be. A dragon can fly above the range of any catapult and then swoop down in a dive bomb attack and destroy whatever heavy device used to attack it. Large constructions like that are hard to move and aim, giving any dragon time to fly up, around, swoop down, attack and then fly up high again. All they would need to do is send someone to scout the castle, map out the placement and aim of heavy weaponry and then just send the dragons in to attack all blind spots.This on the other hand is perfectly correct. Catapults and ballistae are big and heavy, and aiming them and loading them takes a very long time. The scene with the trebuchet in Luc Besson's Jean d'Arc film is a good example of how they might have worked on a battlefield. They were designed to be used against big stationary objects like walls or cities. A culture used to fight against dragons might have thought up something different and more effective, but Westeros was caught by surprise. Normal siege weapons just wouldn't have worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 This situation, if true, turns dragons into an "unstoppable juggernaut", kind of like having a B2 bomber when the opposition only has bows and arrows. Frankly, it is extremely dissatisfying, as it becomes a gimmick which simply says that whoever owns the Dragon must automatically be King, nevermind his tactical or strategic ability.I think this is kind of Martin's point.Dragons are gigantic armored flying fire-spewing machines. In a derivative fantasy novel, these facts would be glossed over in order to enable the hero to win out with his bravery and his sword. But what Martin is trying to show is that this sort of thing (the hero winning with his bravery and his sword) simply wouldn't happen. Gigantic armored flying fire-spewing machines are basically unstoppable juggernauts, and any realistically realized fantasy world needs to consider them as such. Otherwise, the story loses any claim to realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinytoyrobots Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 How do you conquer a continent with just 3 Dragons?My question would actually be more along the lines of "how do you not?" :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldWarRob Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I'd say one of the largest weapons that Aegon and his dragon's possessed was intimidation. Sorry, but if I see an incredibly large army, led by a white haired bad ass flying a gigantic lizard that spews molten fire...I'm going to turn tail and run. I'm sure in some of the battles men fought bravely for a time. But from what we have seen from the battles in the books, at the first sign of major trouble men (peasants who make up the large majority of the army, not the knights) run for their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 My question would actually be more along the lines of "how do you not?" :)If the dragons are babies or drunk or are the dragon equivalent of Hodor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinytoyrobots Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 If the dragons are babies or drunk or are the dragon equivalent of HodorHodorion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldWarRob Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 If the dragons are babies or drunk or are the dragon equivalent of HodorI would like one glass of whatever dragon's drink to get a buzz, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hodorion?:lol: Most excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Bolton's Onesie Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Though a dragon might be near invulnerable, what of the rider? Of course they'd be well protected, but surely there's the chance that they could be wounded, as unlikely as that might be. In the event of a rider actually being killed, what would stop the dragon from rampaging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinytoyrobots Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Come to think of it, the books already have a demonstrably successful strategy for fighting dragons.Don't.Works for the Dornish. They deliberately avoided facing Aegon's armies, and the dragons, in open combat. Stuck with hit and run tactics, and pretty much made it too much trouble for him to occupy Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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