[Book Spoilers] EP110 Discussion #2

[Mad Sweeney]

So please explain exactly what you think happens when Dany thanks MMD for the lessons and says that she wants her life because only life can pay for death (a line directly taken from MMD explaining blood magic so the choice of word makes no sense to be talking about justice). Also explain why that phrase is the only thing that managed to draw any emotion out of MMD.

And as for not being even close, that goes better for your recitation of what's said on the show. The only thing she says when Jorah asks her is "they were not given to me to sell". Nothing more.

I'll watch it again, but I don't recall Dany saying anything to MMD about death paying for life at the pyre, just that she wanted MMD to die. Only MMD said death for life to Dany in the tent before the spell. And that spell was completed. Rhaego died, Drogo lived. Spell's over. The hatching was separate incident that occurred after the spell was over, after Dany killed Drogo herself because his "life" was unacceptable to her.

[Unnamed]

I'll watch it again, but I don't recall Dany saying anything to MMD about death paying for life at the pyre, just that she wanted MMD to die. Only MMD said death for life to Dany in the tent before the spell. And that spell was completed. Rhaego died, Drogo lived. Spell's over. The hatching was separate incident that occurred after the spell was over, after Dany killed Drogo herself because his "life" was unacceptable to her.

You are clearly focusing exclusively on the TV Show version of the scene, while the rest of us are focusing more on the book version. In the TV version, it's hard to deny that MDD has designs on the unborn child--EVERYONE saw the actress cut her eyes at Daeni's belly. The reason that we're talking about it is that, for some of us, this was very different from our understanding of the events in the book.

So, if you go back and re-watch the show, you won't find what you're looking for. But, if you go back and re-read the book, you just might see what he's talking about.

A key indicator that he is talking about the book is the reference to Daeni's thoughts. In the version of the TV Show that I watched, we were not privy to the thoughts of any of the characters.

-VM

[Mad Sweeney]

Well, at least you're not implying we're illiterate. For what it's worth, I took the advanced Lit classes, but it was more than 20 years ago. As I recall, I often disagreed with my teacher about the "meanings" of stories we read...

I don't mind that you disagree with me--why is it so distressing that I disagree with you? Can you simply not live with it unless you somehow establish that it's because I'm stupid/oblivious/ignorant? There is no official "right" answer here, and no need to be insulting because I refuse to bless yours.

We disagree. It happens all the time among intelligent people, and it almost NEVER means that one side is a bunch of idiots.

[Added:] And what does it say about YOU that you can't seem to stop arguing with people who are clearly idiots?

-VM

I already told you I was a moron that would argue with a blade of grass. But once again, you're interpretation goes awry. I never implied that you or anyone else were idiots, just that you're way, way off on what's very clearly written and shown.

[Unnamed]

I already told you I was a moron that would argue with a blade of grass. But once again, you're interpretation goes awry. I never implied that you or anyone else were idiots, just that you're way, way off on what's very clearly written and shown.

I give up. You win. I can't believe I've wasted all this time thinking that Jorah carrying Daeni into the tent actually mattered.

[The blade of grass bows in defeat.]

-VM

[Tywin's bastard]

I'll watch it again, but I don't recall Dany saying anything to MMD about death paying for life at the pyre, just that she wanted MMD to die. Only MMD said death for life to Dany in the tent before the spell. And that spell was completed. Rhaego died, Drogo lived. Spell's over. The hatching was separate incident that occurred after the spell was over, after Dany killed Drogo herself because his "life" was unacceptable to her.

No, she doesn't in the show, I was writing what's said in the book. Nothing in the scene contradicts anything that happens in the books either so there's no reason to think that the show is different in what's happening, just more vague.

[Mad Sweeney]

So please explain exactly what you think happens when Dany thanks MMD for the lessons and says that she wants her life because only life can pay for death (a line directly taken from MMD explaining blood magic so the choice of word makes no sense to be talking about justice). Also explain why that phrase is the only thing that managed to draw any emotion out of MMD.

And as for not being even close, that goes better for your recitation of what's said on the show. The only thing she says when Jorah asks her is "they were not given to me to sell". Nothing more.

I just re-watched the pyre scene and 1: You're right, she only says they weren't hers to sell. That they were gifts to a woman who's now gone is my interpretation. However there's nothing whatsoever in the scene that refers back to blood magic or MMD. And 2: you're wrong, utterly, about what makes MMD show emotion. The only emotion she shows is a smile after Dany tells her khalasar that they can leave if they want to and when some of them do, MMD smiles (which bolsters my arguments that her goal was to destroy the Dothraki khal that destroyed her life). Dany says nothing about MMD other than she wants her life. Nothing to tie it to the eggs, nothing to tie it to the spell. Nothing. Like I've said, for some reason the spell and the hatchings have been grouped together by people and that's not justified byt he show or the book.

[Unnamed]

I already told you I was a moron that would argue with a blade of grass. But once again, you're interpretation goes awry. I never implied that you or anyone else were idiots, just that you're way, way off on what's very clearly written and shown.

Moving on to other topics...can you clarify the difference between "idiots" and those who can't understand "what's very clearly written and shown"?

I just want a better understanding of where I stand on the Great Number Line of Intelligence.

-VM

[Mad Sweeney]

I give up. You win. I can't believe I've wasted all this time thinking that Jorah carrying Daeni into the tent actually mattered.

[The blade of grass bows in defeat.]

-VM

Who says it didn't matter? All I've said is that the child was dead regardless of if she was in the tent or halfway to Asshai. I would be willing to bet that the deformation was a product of coming in the tent.

[Mad Sweeney]

You are clearly focusing exclusively on the TV Show version of the scene, while the rest of us are focusing more on the book version. In the TV version, it's hard to deny that MDD has designs on the unborn child--EVERYONE saw the actress cut her eyes at Daeni's belly. The reason that we're talking about it is that, for some of us, this was very different from our understanding of the events in the book.

So, if you go back and re-watch the show, you won't find what you're looking for. But, if you go back and re-read the book, you just might see what he's talking about.

A key indicator that he is talking about the book is the reference to Daeni's thoughts. In the version of the TV Show that I watched, we were not privy to the thoughts of any of the characters.

-VM

I'll get back to this when I re-read the scene later today, but I have little doubt that it will prove I am right on this. Many things I will attribute to different interpretations, but some things are exceptionally clear even if they're not stated outright and this is one of them.

[Unnamed]

I don't understand your question here.

Well, start by trying to imagine that time runs backwards...

-VM

[Unnamed]

Who says it didn't matter? All I've said is that the child was dead regardless of if she was in the tent or halfway to Asshai. I would be willing to bet that the deformation was a product of coming in the tent.

I'm using the verb "to matter" here in the sense of "to have some meanginful impact on subsequent events." So, in this case, we'll use the traditional notion of time moving forward.

When you say, in essence, "It mattered, but the outcome would have been the same, regardless," what I "hear" is a meaningless contradiction, at least in the sense that I was trying to use "to matter".

-VM

[CryFenril]

It seems GRRM himself answered the question of how many legs Dany's dragons have, in his fan pics/emil section of the official website...

Drogon Kidnapped

The pertinent quote (emphasis mine):

"Secondly, the great wyrm in the picture looks to have four legs, while my dragons have only two. They have the wrong dragon!"

:lmao:

[Unnamed]

I'll get back to this when I re-read the scene later today, but I have little doubt that it will prove I am right on this....

As ye seek, so shall ye find.

-VM

[Rangers30]

I can't tell you how happy I am that we have 10 MORE MONTHS to dissect all this! :rolleyes:

[Mad Sweeney]

I'm using the verb "to matter" here in the sense of "to have some meanginful impact on subsequent events." So, in this case, we'll use the traditional notion of time moving forward.

When you say, in essence, "It mattered, but the outcome would have been the same, regardless," what I "hear" is a meaningless contradiction, at least in the sense that I was trying to use "to matter".

-VM

How about, it didn't matter as to whether the baby lived or died.

Also, if "no one" is supposed to have come into the tent, but Dany AND Jorah did, what were the consequences to Jorah? None. Why not?

[Mad Sweeney]

I can't tell you how happy I am that we have 10 MORE MONTHS to dissect all this! :rolleyes:

More like 3 weeks. Once book 5 comes out I won't even think about the series until stuff about the filming of season 2 starts trickling out.

I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't read the sample chapters, but I am exceptionally interested in what the Dany chapter is going to mean in the long run. Might be even more compelling than the fight against the Others.

[Tywin's bastard]

I just re-watched the pyre scene and 1: You're right, she only says they weren't hers to sell. That they were gifts to a woman who's now gone is my interpretation. However there's nothing whatsoever in the scene that refers back to blood magic or MMD. And 2: you're wrong, utterly, about what makes MMD show emotion. The only emotion she shows is a smile after Dany tells her khalasar that they can leave if they want to and when some of them do, MMD smiles (which bolsters my arguments that her goal was to destroy the Dothraki khal that destroyed her life). Dany says nothing about MMD other than she wants her life. Nothing to tie it to the eggs, nothing to tie it to the spell. Nothing. Like I've said, for some reason the spell and the hatchings have been grouped together by people and that's not justified byt he show or the book.

You seemed to have skipped my latest answer to you where I clarified that what I was writing was the details from the book. The show doesn't really say anything why the eggs hatch but the important thing is that it doesn't contradict the book in any way (it was just shortened), and the book is not even subtle with the fact that Dany is attempting blood magic. And again, judging from how MMD reacts to when Dany says that she wants her life because only death can pay for life it certainly looks like Dany is doing things right.

[Unnamed]

How about, it didn't matter as to whether the baby lived or died.

Also, if "no one" is supposed to have come into the tent, but Dany AND Jorah did, what were the consequences to Jorah? None. Why not?

Are you sure? Jorah didn't give birth to a healthy baby either, and as I undertand it, will never be able to in the future...

Too silly? Okay, how 'bout this: I have a pot of boiling water, and I tell John not to stick his head in it. However, John's wife approaches with their baby and trips over a slithy tove on the ground beside the pot. In the subsequent pratfall, John, his wife, and the baby all dunk their heads in the boiling water. John and his wife live, but the baby dies. Since John and his wife lived, does that mean that the boiling water is not responsible for the baby's death?

Too bizarre? I'll just say this: The fact that Jorah did not suffer any obvious ill effects (for all we know, he's sterile, now) does not force me to conclude that entering the tent would harm no one. I could list a lot of reasons that an unborn fetus might be more "susceptible" to blood magic than an adult, but I don't see the point.

Too theoretical? Alright. I don't know the answers to your questions. Why did MDD say that she only needed a horse for the blood magic rite, when she knew that she really needed the life of Daeni's fetus? Why did she claim that Daeni should have known what she really meant? Why would anyone expect Daeni to be an expert on the requirements of blood magic spells?

Since the events in question are ambiguous, we can both pose unanswerable questions about each other's scenarios, and we can both scramble to come up with theoretical "answers" that fit in with our understanding of the events. And the exercise will get us exactly nowhere.

-VM

[Gnomestress]

The Belgariad was the first fantasy book series I ever read. I picked it off of an endcap at my library because I liked the cover art. It captured my 11 year old imagination and majorly influenced my tastes. True, the Mallorean is extremely similar to the Belgariad but it holds such a special place in my heart that I cannot look at those stories in a critical light.

I'd like to meet GRRM but I follow the idea of not meeting your idols. I don't agree with the pederasty angle as far as the idea of young girls being married off and having sex. GRRM bases Westeros in many ways off of medieval Europe. The red wedding is even loosely based off of a historical event. Child brides were commonplace during this time. It disgusts modern day people but within the setting it is socially acceptable.

I enjoyed Dragonlance up until the end of Chronicles. I didn't read them until long after those books were first published. I wasn't even born when Autumn Twilight was released. That's neither here nor there. I can relate with you on the beat up books. My husband doesn't understand how I can read the same book over and over and still enjoy it. I tell him he just hasn't found the right book.

[Unnamed]

The Belgariad was the first fantasy book series I ever read....

I read it, but found it to be...unmemorable. That is, I don't even remember exactly what it was about. The series that introduced me to fantasy--and made me a lifelong subscriber--was the Earthsea Trilogy (it was a trilogy back then). If you haven't read it, you're missing out on a classic.

-VM