[Book Spoilers] EP110 Discussion #2

[Gnomestress]

I wasn't expecting Hot Pie to be a major fatty.

When your name is a tasty snack you're pretty much destined to be chunky.

[Jimbeezee]

When your name is a tasty snack you're pretty much destined to be chunky.

He's even fatter than Sam. Kind of takes away from the idea that Sam is supposed to be the fattest person a lot of people have ever seen.

[legba11]

Second watch:

As much as I liked the episode the first time, I really liked it this time. There is a lot of great stuff here.

Sansa's turn scene was pretty much perfect. Such a great scene to be pulled off almost entirely by two child actors. The two non-readers I watch with both totally jumped on the Hound's being "not all bad" and "complicated".

Catelyn and Jaime scene is really excellent too. Probably the second best conversation scene (next to the contraversial Robert/Cersei marriage chat). Jaime will need his role expanded in season 2, perhaps have his escape attempt actually succeed for 2 episodes, maybe a run in with Dondarien's troops or something. That would give him more screen time (needed as he becomes the hero of the main story near the end of book 3) and allow the viewers to see him in action at full speed at least once more.

I find Osha a bit overacting the wildling part, hopefully she tones it down a bit. Bran is incrdibly charming as the child of summer he is supposed to be. I wish there was more for him to do in the future.

Lancel, "Was it this exciting, last time, when you were young?" Ouch...

King in the North scene was great both times.

We need more Tywin and Tyrion scenes. Add them to other shows in the Fall just so I can wait till next season. Maybe a guest spot on CSI or something.

MMD should have been less smug. She got what she wanted and has her revenge, she feels her life was over before but still smug is not the appropriate attitude knowing she is going to be killed soon. Strained defiance... sure, resigned peace... fine or at least forced/fake smugness. Poor job by the actress I think.

All three Wall scenes are incredible. One (non reader) fellow watcher, "So when does Season 2 start?" as they rode through the wall.

Emilia Clarke really shows a great range in this episode, she is great.

The Pycelle scene works for me, it gives the non-readers a bit of the history and establishes him as another player in the game. He is the most powerful man in the Game at the end of book 4, he needs to be someone before Tyrion tears him down. He will make that scene more powerful and make it better when he survives that and prospers later. It's great that Roz washes her Hoohah in front of him, she has no regard for him.

The Varys/LF scenes are very entertaining. Are they realistic? No, men like that would play their cards VERY close to their vests. That makes lousy television though. Do you really want scenes of them lying in bed, thinking to themselves? The scenes work.

Arya meets Lommy and Hot Pie is kind of weak IMO. Gendry saves it. No idea what the confusion is about Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. You don't see Biter's teeth (much) but there is clearly something off with his mouth. Jaqen isn't cast yet, so the hood works. It also makes sense if it is Syrio and he is hiding from anyone who may see through his disguise until he leaves KL.

[Gnomestress]

He's even fatter than Sam. Kind of takes away from the idea that Sam is supposed to be the fattest person a lot of people have ever seen.

The actor was probably someone who auditioned for Sam but John Bradley was chosen over him. Their casting person probably liked the boy playing Hot Pie and cast him in another role.

[Unnamed]

The dragons hatched because they were ready to hatch...

I think this is the part that has been the sticking point for me, and the reason that I have looked for an "explanation": These weren't just old dragon eggs; they were fossilized dragon eggs. They were so old that all of the organic matter had been, supposedly, replaced by rock. So, what I have looked for is what "triggered" or "provided the magical power" for the transformation into organic, viable dragon eggs. Once that's explained, I can absolutely buy that they hatched in the fire because it was hot enough.

To my way of thinking, when Daeni was cooking them on her hibachi, they were just rocks. And after a certain amount of time on the coals, they were very hot rocks. Later, when she puts then into the Drogo barbecue, they are no longer rocks; they are dragon eggs that could hatch (again, this is my personal theory).

So, it was this line of thinking that led me to the notion that Daeni's baby must have been the "power" for the transformation of the dragon eggs, and it was this, er, "process" that caused the baby to come out looking dragonish.

-VM

[Unnamed]

I, for one, always thought that Mirri summoned demons of some sort (she was "dancing, and not alone," if I remember the quote)in the tent who required a blood/life sacrifice - the horse may have drawn them, but when Dany was brought in they sought out her enticing unborn baby as well. Had she not entered the tent, Drogo would still have been the same afterward (zombified, basically) but her entrance gave the occult "powers" another target to attack as well.

Mirri didn't seem to know that Jorah would ignore her edict and bring Dany into the tent, so it seems that Rhaego's demise was a sort of lagniappe for her. And as a practicioner of darker arts, it stands to reason that she'd claim credit for Rhaego's death on principle. It serves to boost her power over superstitious peoples if she can claim responsibility for two deaths, rather than just one.

As for Dany's "sacrifice" of Mirri - Dany was thoroughly untrained in whatever art Mirri practiced, so the idea that she would be able to channel the same supernatural forces is sketchy, at best. No chanting, no dancing, just fire. Fire in and of itself doesn't seem to be enough - even Melisandre, who is arguably more powerful than Mirri, needs spells and chants and worship to make her fires work. Dany had nothing but a heap of burning corpses.

I find that I am in in perfect agreement with the paragraphs I quoted. I never thought that MDD was targeting the baby, but she didn't mind that he died. And, as I recall her dialog from the book, nothing in it says that she intentionally caused the baby's death. For me the conversation was more along the lines of this (loosely):

DT: Osama bin Laden is dead.

MDD: Well, then, I guess he won't be sending any more fanatics to fly planes into buildings. Good riddance.

DT: What? You're happy about this? This is not what you led me to expect...

MDD: Oh, come on. You knew when the U.S. military set out to hunt him down that they would kill him. It's just silly to act surprised now.

At least, that's the way I read it, so it surprised me when everyone read this as MDD admitting that she meant to kill the baby all along. It's one thing to say that you're glad someone is dead; it's quite another to say that you intentionally caused them to be dead.

I also never felt there was any reason to believe that Daeni was now a blood-magician. She may have thought that burning MDD would bring the dragons to life, but I never did. As I've said, I thought that the eggs were made viable by the sacrifice of her baby...all that was needed now was a nice hot fire to encourage them to hatch.

Of course, none of the theories that any of us have proposed really explains Daeni's freakish immunity to fire, and GRRM has said it was a one-time deal...maybe MDD's life "paid for" Daeni's ability to survive the flames?

-VM

[Stark Truth]

Apropos of nothing, I just overheard an extremely entertaining conversation about this episode between our lead financial analyst and a manager of another department (I work for a very large public company in NY). These people are normally non-literate, non-nerdy, jock types who wouldn't know a sigil from a stop sign. It made me LOL but also made me really happy that the series is brining in a wide audience and introducing new people to fantasy :)

[Stark Truth]

Of course, none of the theories that any of us have proposed really explains Daeni's freakish immunity to fire, and GRRM has said it was a one-time deal...maybe MDD's life "paid for" Daeni's ability to survive the flames?

-VM

Dany's hand didn't burn when she stuck it in the brazier in Episode 3-4 (?)

[Unnamed]

...Later, Dany says "I thank you, MMD, for the lessons you have taught me... I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life."

To say that all it took was a hotter fire to do it takes something away from Dany...

To slightly rephrase an earlier point: Daeni doesn't know any more about blood magic than we readers do. She may think she's now capable of it, but I doubt it. In fact, she seems to have recognized some general philosophical principle here--as if "only death can pay for life" is true whether or not you're talking about blood magic spells. I think it says something about how she is seeing the world at that moment, but it doesn't mean that she is now able to do the things that a maegi can do...

And, for what it's worth, I don't feel like this takes anything away from her. She's just lost everything that meant something to her, and she picks herself up and moves on--and in the process, something amazing happens. Whether she fully understood it or intentionally caused it is immaterial (to me) in evaluating her character. If nothing else, she was prescient (or crazy) enough to believe it could happen and was willing to walking into a flaming pyre based on that belief.

Regardless of how good a blood magician she is, she demonstrated a willingness to try things that I ordinarily would not.

-VM

[Unnamed]

Dany's hand didn't burn when she stuck it in the brazier in Episode 3-4 (?)

Yeah, it wasn't clear what he meant by "one time"...is Daeni herself the one time? Is this portion of a year the one time? I don't know, but the implication was, regardless of her general resistance to heat, she couldn't walk into a flaming pyre every day. [Ahem] That is to say, that is how I interpreted the remark...

-VM

[The Knight of Grasses]

It's about to replay, so I'll look out for that scene. Other than that, the dragons do have tails, AFAIK. Large image of Dany + Drogon -- the tail is behind the dragon's right leg (our left), and continues down Dany's back.

Actually, in that picture it appears that the dragon's tail is lifted up. You cannot see it until the tip of it emerges between its left wing and the back of Dany's head.

[The Knight of Grasses]

While I don't think Dany was performing the exact same ritual as Mirri, the idea of awakening the dragons requiring heat plus sacrifice is sparked by it. It just resonates with her on a subconscious level because she is indeed the dragon.

The first paragraph of the last Dany chapter makes it abundantly clear that Mirri thinks Dany is trying to work a spell and she makes the same arguments that you made there, basically you don't know what you're doing and it will never work. Later, Dany says "I thank you, MMD, for the lessons you have taught me... I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life."

To say that all it took was a hotter fire to do it takes something away from Dany. Throughout the series we see Dany being forged from the weak girl she was into the strong ruler she is (supposedly) meant to be. The first book she is hardened, later she is tempered. She constantly turns adversity into opportunity, always learning from what happens. I believe Mirri wants to leave Dany in the state that Mirri is in, broken and everything taken from her. While Mirri succeeds in her plan, it doesn't break Dany and in fact she takes from her the key to finally accomplishing everything she intends to do on her own terms.

On a different track, I think Dany getting the dragons at this point is a message from GRRM to the reader that, like the Lannisters, he always pays his debts. In this case Dany doesn't have to wait long (though she and us will have to wait and wait and wait before she can actually do anything important), and it's not really a fair trade, but it is one means of accomplishing her goal traded for another. So we can take some heart that eventually the Starks will get something in return for Ned. We just might have to wait a while. But I'm sure by the middle of the third book good things will be happening for them ;)

I don't think the hotter fire hatching the dragons takes anything away from Dany. She can be strong without being able to do magic. I think MMD's death was symbolic, and Dany thinks of her son, her husband, and the maegi's deaths as paying for her dragons, but I think its pretty far-fetched to assume that Dany knew how to channel magic. She's never thought about how it worked, or contemplated doing it again. Or even anything like it. I don't think there was any magic involved in the dragons hatching other than the bond Dany shares with the dragons from being a Targaryen. In other words, nothing Dany consciously did.

[The Knight of Grasses]

I think this is the part that has been the sticking point for me, and the reason that I have looked for an "explanation": These weren't just old dragon eggs; they were fossilized dragon eggs. They were so old that all of the organic matter had been, supposedly, replaced by rock. So, what I have looked for is what "triggered" or "provided the magical power" for the transformation into organic, viable dragon eggs. Once that's explained, I can absolutely buy that they hatched in the fire because it was hot enough.

To my way of thinking, when Daeni was cooking them on her hibachi, they were just rocks. And after a certain amount of time on the coals, they were very hot rocks. Later, when she puts then into the Drogo barbecue, they are no longer rocks; they are dragon eggs that could hatch (again, this is my personal theory).

So, it was this line of thinking that led me to the notion that Daeni's baby must have been the "power" for the transformation of the dragon eggs, and it was this, er, "process" that caused the baby to come out looking dragonish.

-VM

I don't buy this at all, and it's because of all the clues GRRM gives us throughout Dany's arc in the first book. Dany sensed quite early something about the eggs that made them feel like much more than rocks. That's why she put them on the brazier in the first place. Doesn't the book on several occasions make specific note of the fact that they were warm? Why would GRRM do this if it was just because they were rocks that had been warmed in the sun?

As I said, I don't know when it happened - my guess would be as soon as Dany made contact with them - but those were dragon eggs because of who Dany is and her innate "magic" as being a true "dragon" of the Targaryen house. She brought them to life again, and what it took for them to be hatched was the proper conditions. It makes no sense to me at all that the dragons needed blood magic to be hatched. Or even that Dany knew enough about blood magic to facilitate it. She hasn't used it or referenced it any other time, or any other type of magic, for that matter.

[CryFenril]

Oh my gosh, I want so much to respond to this, but I'm too busy giggling at "hibachi" , "very hot rocks", and "Drogo barbecue". I'm gonna have to calm down a bit before I can say anything halfway intelligent, heh.

:lol:

[Unnamed]

Dany sensed quite early something about the eggs that made them feel like much more than rocks. That's why she put them on the brazier in the first place. Doesn't the book on several occasions make specific note of the fact that they were warm....

As I recall, it was made very clear that Daeni was the only one that perceived these changes. She thought they were warm when everyone else thought they were cold rocks. So, does this mean they were changing, and only she could perceive it? Or does it mean she was sensing the potential? Or that she was bonkers?

I favor the second; you favor the first. Then again, it could have been a long, slow process that happened over the months that she carried them around. She kept heating them up at every opportunity...maybe over time, this changed them. Even if that was the case, I would still think there would be a need for something to give them a "spark of life". Changing them from rocks to eggs, live or not, is impressive enough...

-VM

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Actually, in that picture it appears that the dragon's tail is lifted up. You cannot see it until the tip of it emerges between its left wing and the back of Dany's head.

Are you talking about the dragon's "thumb"? (Which is present on the other wing structure, too.) The tail's tip may be sticking out somewhere, but the base end is very definitely going down behind the leg, as I mentioned already. As Anti-Targ pointed out, look at the difference in thickness between it and the actual leg structure.

[Unnamed]

Oh my gosh, I want so much to respond to this, but I'm too busy giggling at "hibachi" , "very hot rocks", and "Drogo barbecue". I'm gonna have to calm down a bit before I can say anything halfway intelligent, heh.

:lol:

I cannot fully express how gratifying it is to see that there are folks here that can maintain a sense of humor in the midst of "debate"...even better, you laughed at the parts that I intended to be funny...

There are several here that it seems every time they see a post of mine, their hair stands completely on end (or so I imagine). How could someone who doesn't know me from Adam be so distressed by the possiblity that I disagree with them? Then again, I disagree with many people on a regular basis; perhaps I have just become immune to the natural discomfort it causes.

-VM

[Unnamed]

Are you talking about the dragon's "thumb"? (Which is present on the other wing structure, too.) The tail's tip may be sticking out somewhere, but the base end is very definitely going down behind the leg, as I mentioned already. As Anti-Targ pointed out, look at the difference in thickness between it and the actual leg structure.

I am imagining the poor guys working on the CGI for this scene, and I'm wondering if they could possibly imagine someone outside the team examining it at this level of detail. "Oh, crap, I'm going to have to redo the whole thing, or someone's going to think the dragon's thumb is it's tail. I'll call you back later."

-VM

[Unnamed]

Actually, in that picture it appears that the dragon's tail is lifted up. You cannot see it until the tip of it emerges between its left wing and the back of Dany's head.

I haven't exactly studied the scene, but I thought I saw a big 'ole tail on Viseryon, when he was shimmying up Daeni's leg...

"No, seriously, there was a third dragon in that scene, down by Daeni's left foot."

"What? You're kidding...down by her foot? That's nowhere near her tits."

-VM

[CryFenril]

In retail management, you can tell your district manager is happy with your performance when he comes in and nitpicks things like "Someone needs to dust these fixtures," and "Can someone please repaint the trim on the outside of the building?" and "Have someone go through and reprint price tags in this section, they're getting old and raggedy-looking."

We're down to picking on whether or not the dragons' tails were long enough, and whether Syrio should've had hair, and whether Sandor or Petyr should've told the story of Gregor and the toy knight.

That means the meat of the series was delicious, and we're nibbling at the bones to make the feast last just that much longer.

:thumbsup: