[Book Spoilers] EP110 Discussion #2

[Unnamed]

I remember distinctly having to look up "chiaroscuro" and "gibbous", lol... and that's before we even met the Elohim, who just complicated things all to heck and back...

Just to give you pleasant memories:

An actual, honest-to-goodness website. I swear.

Totally awesome. Thanks for the link.

-VM

[The Knight of Grasses]

I probably should just leave this alone, but I'm a glutton for punishment. My take on the MMD/Dany/Drogo/Dragons/Horse quintfecta of burning and life and death and magic and other crap:

Dany's baby was the price for Drogo's life. My personal take on the disfigurement of the baby is that it's because she entered the tent, but that's just speculation. It's also my guess that MMD told Dany not to come into the tent because she didn't want to be interfered with, NOT because Dany coming into the tent would cause her baby to die. Her baby was going to die anyway. The horse was either a diversion, or the blood was needed for the spell.

The dragons hatched because they were ready to hatch and were placed in a hot enough fire. My guess is that Dany's touch of the eggs awakened the dragons within them (whether that occurred much earlier or the night they hatched, I don't know, but it doesn't really matter). But the actual catalyst for hatching dragons was a super hot fire, and didn't have anything to do with Drogo or MMD or Rhaego dying.

[Sega AM2]

It's good for you if you can rationalize the TV Shae into Tyrion's character arc. It sucks for me, because I can't. Doesn't mean that I hate the TV Show--I love most of it. But every time she appears on screen and speaks, it tosses me right out of the story, because I'm thinking the "real" Tyrion would just as soon have a snake in his bed. Of course, the "real" Tyrion is probably different for every reader of the books. Clearly, your "real" Tyrion is far different from mine. What I'm reminding you is that I'm not trying to prove to you that you're wrong, and I'm trying to describe my "real" Tyrion, and why I imagine him this way. The only person who could definitively say what the REAL Tyrion would do is GRRM, and if he did, it appears that it could ruin the story for half of us.

This is also why I hate TV-Shae. She is so starkly different from the books that it breaks all immersion I have when I'm watching the show and she appears. Her acting and dialog are so jarring that I am thrown out of the story and all I can think about is how wildly different this is from the books. The changes to Shae are by far the most egregious to me, even worse than ridiculously changes like Littlefinger telling Sansa about The Hound's burns, or the pointless decision to swap two of the prologue characters.

I understood when everyone was cast up a few years in age and even GRRM said that he liked that the TV characters were all older. And I don't mind that The Mountain is only seven feet tall on TV and not eight like in the books. Or that the actors who play Cersei and Jaime are not the same age and are both older than the actor who plays Tyrion. None of that bothers me at all because it isn't so glaringly dissimilar from the books. I can believe that Tyrion is younger on the show than his siblings and that Cersei and Jaime are the same age on the show. I can still see that The Mountain is a gigantic and fearsome psychopath. But I can't believe that TV Shae is at all the same character that book Shae is.

Judging by the dialog in the show Shae is going to become Tyrion's lady at court and present at political meetings and social events. And she's supposedly not even low-born. And instead of being submissive and fooling Tyrion that she likes him she is instead outlandishly aggressive and domineering.

[CryFenril]

I probably should just leave this alone, but I'm a glutton for punishment. My take on the MMD/Dany/Drogo/Dragons/Horse quintfecta of burning and life and death and magic and other crap:

Dany's baby was the price for Drogo's life. My personal take on the disfigurement of the baby is that it's because she entered the tent, but that's just speculation. It's also my guess that MMD told Dany not to come into the tent because she didn't want to be interfered with, NOT because Dany coming into the tent would cause her baby to die. Her baby was going to die anyway. The horse was either a diversion, or the blood was needed for the spell.

The dragons hatched because they were ready to hatch and were placed in a hot enough fire. My guess is that Dany's touch of the eggs awakened the dragons within them (whether that occurred much earlier or the night they hatched, I don't know, but it doesn't really matter). But the actual catalyst for hatching dragons was a super hot fire, and didn't have anything to do with Drogo or MMD or Rhaego dying.

I am somewhat in agreement with you on this - I have always thought that the heat of the fire wasn't strong enough when Dany put them in the brazier, but the pyre was hot enough to do the trick.

The difficult thing is, we're arguing a single author's interpretation of a magical act. Which is like arguing about what color a fairy's wings are. We're never going to come up with a satisfactory universal answer.

I, for one, always thought that Mirri summoned demons of some sort (she was "dancing, and not alone," if I remember the quote)in the tent who required a blood/life sacrifice - the horse may have drawn them, but when Dany was brought in they sought out her enticing unborn baby as well. Had she not entered the tent, Drogo would still have been the same afterward (zombified, basically) but her entrance gave the occult "powers" another target to attack as well.

Mirri didn't seem to know that Jorah would ignore her edict and bring Dany into the tent, so it seems that Rhaego's demise was a sort of lagniappe for her. And as a practicioner of darker arts, it stands to reason that she'd claim credit for Rhaego's death on principle. It serves to boost her power over superstitious peoples if she can claim responsibility for two deaths, rather than just one.

As for Dany's "sacrifice" of Mirri - Dany was thoroughly untrained in whatever art Mirri practiced, so the idea that she would be able to channel the same supernatural forces is sketchy, at best. No chanting, no dancing, just fire. Fire in and of itself doesn't seem to be enough - even Melisandre, who is arguably more powerful than Mirri, needs spells and chants and worship to make her fires work. Dany had nothing but a heap of burning corpses.

I think Mirri did Drogo on purpose, Rhaego by accident, and had nothing at all to do with the dragons.

Again, just my interpretation of a single author's description of a magical act. Take it as you will.

:idea:

[Starky Smurf]

I don't have the patience to search for it through 31 pages, but did anyone else think that looked like the Old Bear sitting to Theon's left in the KING IN THE NORTH scene?

Sorry folks, I don't want to be "that guy", but seeing as I posted this in the middle of a 6 page argument about Dany/death/dragons, etc., and seeing as it's doing my head in the more I think about it, I was wondering if anyone noticed what I mentioned above. Granted, I wasn't watching in HD, but I could swear...

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

It's about to replay, so I'll look out for that scene. Other than that, the dragons do have tails, AFAIK. Large image of Dany + Drogon -- the tail is behind the dragon's right leg (our left), and continues down Dany's back.

I find it more odd that the dragons have six "fingers" (five in the wing membrane, and then the claw at the top). Humans, seals, bats, we all have five. Of course, we have five toes, too, and the dragons seem to have four, so.... This is probably even weirder to consider worth discussing than they dragon/drake/wyvern thing.

ETA: That scene just went by, and I can see why you see similarity, but it definitely wasn't James Cosmo. It's even more obvious in the face-on scenes when the shots show the Greatjon full-length.

[Leuf]

Sorry folks, I don't want to be "that guy", but seeing as I posted this in the middle of a 6 page argument about Dany/death/dragons, etc., and seeing as it's doing my head in the more I think about it, I was wondering if anyone noticed what I mentioned above. Granted, I wasn't watching in HD, but I could swear...

There's a resemblance, but if it is he's wearing fake beard/eyebrows/hair or they dyed it just for this.

[Starky Smurf]

ETA: That scene just went by, and I can see why you see similarity, but it definitely wasn't James Cosmo. It's even more obvious in the face-on scenes when the shots show the Greatjon full-length.

There's a resemblance, but if it is he's wearing fake beard/eyebrows/hair or they dyed it just for this.

Thanks very much to you both. I figured it was just too nonsensical to be true, but I had to be sure.

Neither here nor there, but I'm on my third read of ASoS and am getting to the Red Wedding chapter. Heavy heart. Of course I hope the series goes at least 3 seasons, but that scene will be tough to watch.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

You also get a much clearer shot of the dragons' (well, Drogon's) tails in some of the other parts of the episode. Definitely long!

[Leuf]

As for Dany's "sacrifice" of Mirri - Dany was thoroughly untrained in whatever art Mirri practiced, so the idea that she would be able to channel the same supernatural forces is sketchy, at best. No chanting, no dancing, just fire. Fire in and of itself doesn't seem to be enough - even Melisandre, who is arguably more powerful than Mirri, needs spells and chants and worship to make her fires work. Dany had nothing but a heap of burning corpses.

While I don't think Dany was performing the exact same ritual as Mirri, the idea of awakening the dragons requiring heat plus sacrifice is sparked by it. It just resonates with her on a subconscious level because she is indeed the dragon.

The first paragraph of the last Dany chapter makes it abundantly clear that Mirri thinks Dany is trying to work a spell and she makes the same arguments that you made there, basically you don't know what you're doing and it will never work. Later, Dany says "I thank you, MMD, for the lessons you have taught me... I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life."

To say that all it took was a hotter fire to do it takes something away from Dany. Throughout the series we see Dany being forged from the weak girl she was into the strong ruler she is (supposedly) meant to be. The first book she is hardened, later she is tempered. She constantly turns adversity into opportunity, always learning from what happens. I believe Mirri wants to leave Dany in the state that Mirri is in, broken and everything taken from her. While Mirri succeeds in her plan, it doesn't break Dany and in fact she takes from her the key to finally accomplishing everything she intends to do on her own terms.

On a different track, I think Dany getting the dragons at this point is a message from GRRM to the reader that, like the Lannisters, he always pays his debts. In this case Dany doesn't have to wait long (though she and us will have to wait and wait and wait before she can actually do anything important), and it's not really a fair trade, but it is one means of accomplishing her goal traded for another. So we can take some heart that eventually the Starks will get something in return for Ned. We just might have to wait a while. But I'm sure by the middle of the third book good things will be happening for them ;)

[beehives]

It's about to replay, so I'll look out for that scene. Other than that, the dragons do have tails, AFAIK. Large image of Dany + Drogon -- the tail is behind the dragon's right leg (our left), and continues down Dany's back.

Thanks for pointing that out. I see it now. there is definitely something descending down her back.

I find it more odd that the dragons have six "fingers" (five in the wing membrane, and then the claw at the top). Humans, seals, bats, we all have five. Of course, we have five toes, too, and the dragons seem to have four, so.... This is probably even weirder to consider worth discussing than they dragon/drake/wyvern thing.

LOL I'd love to hear about the producer's process for the design. Like were any herpetologists or paleontologists consulted? An expert cryptozoologist on staff, maybe?

The details I do love are all those tiny TEETH!

[Abaddon]

for those complaining about the last scene being daylight, I ran across an explanation in this article:

While Drogo’s death means the end of Jason’s character in the series, he was pleased with the way his warlord went out – in a giant funeral pyre, which he revealed was shot in the day after nighttime filming went awry due to winds in Malta.

[The Anti-Targ]

It's about to replay, so I'll look out for that scene. Other than that, the dragons do have tails, AFAIK. Large image of Dany + Drogon -- the tail is behind the dragon's right leg (our left), and continues down Dany's back.

I find it more odd that the dragons have six "fingers" (five in the wing membrane, and then the claw at the top). Humans, seals, bats, we all have five. Of course, we have five toes, too, and the dragons seem to have four, so.... This is probably even weirder to consider worth discussing than they dragon/drake/wyvern thing.

You're absolutely right. It's all about the angle of the dangle in that screen cap, but you can see the right [Drogon's right]leg looks thinker than the left, but then you notice that what makes it look thicker is the tail.

Dragons, being especial beasties, would have evolved an extra digit (pinky-splitting I'm thinking). They are so large (or at least grow to be so) that in order for their enormous wings to retain sufficient membrane tension to support flight an extra digit is needed.

4-toed feet, well that's reasonable given their digigrade stance.

[Morrigan]

for those complaining about the last scene being daylight, I ran across an explanation in this article:

Awwww, damn that sucks. Curse you, nature!

[The Anti-Targ]

I wasn't expecting Hot Pie to be a major fatty.

[Tyrion Lannister]

On a different track, I think Dany getting the dragons at this point is a message from GRRM to the reader that, like the Lannisters, he always pays his debts. In this case Dany doesn't have to wait long (though she and us will have to wait and wait and wait before she can actually do anything important), and it's not really a fair trade, but it is one means of accomplishing her goal traded for another. So we can take some heart that eventually the Starks will get something in return for Ned. We just might have to wait a while. But I'm sure by the middle of the third book good things will be happening for them ;)

Of course! Once Robb consented to marry one of Lord Frey's daughters and thus secured passage at the Twins, things started looking up for House Stark. Can't wait to see Robb take King's Landing and teach Joffrey a thing or two! :fencing:

[Eddard Stark]

The timeline at the beginning of the show is pretty clear that it's been 17 years. Viserion says as much in the first episode (second?).

Jaime was a member of the kingsguard for some time before the war. The absolute minimum he could be is 35, and that is really stretching it tightly.

Jaime is probably 31 or 32 at the start of the series (he's 4 years younger than Robert and Ned). Check the books.

Dany was conceived before the rebellion and is 14 when she becomes pregnant with Rhaego.

[Not The Riddler]

This is a question from the discussion #1 thread... why all the hate on naked Roz? is it just because shes nude in a bunch of episodes?

[The Anti-Targ]

This is a question from the discussion #1 thread... why all the hate on naked Roz? is it just because shes nude in a bunch of episodes?

Every episode she's in she's shows her lady parts, even when she was fully clothed they had her flash her vagina at Theon.

For me it's become a cliche: Oh here's Ros, vagina time. In a show where the sex and nudity is meant to be "real" having Ros unintentionally (I assume) turn into comic relief takes something away from the sexual element of the show. Ros is almost a caricature rather than a character.

Perhaps if other female characters showed more, or if there was at least one scene where Ros doesn't show it. It's a pretty rare thing that you see greater variety of penis than vagina in a show. Though I swear Theon and Hodor used the same prosthetic (Thronecast interview with Natalia Tena confirmed Hodor's was a fake).

When only one woman shows it off it becomes the token bush shot and seems contrived. When a bunch of women show it off it becomes a natural part of the world. In this respect Spartacus does it better IMO, there's so much nudity there, but because it's different people in different contexts it blends in to the show as a whole.

The other objection to Ros is that Ros time took time away from actual scenes from the books, or took the place of scenes from the books. Which as book fans can be annoying: I was really looking forward to scenes A, B and C from the books but instead we got most of A, part of B and Ros and her pet beaver.

So for me it's not her nudity in an absolute sense, but the context around of it that kinda made me sick of seeing Ros after about the second scene with her. Which is a pity, because I thought the actress did a good job with what she had to do.

[CryFenril]

While I don't think Dany was performing the exact same ritual as Mirri, the idea of awakening the dragons requiring heat plus sacrifice is sparked by it. It just resonates with her on a subconscious level because she is indeed the dragon.

The first paragraph of the last Dany chapter makes it abundantly clear that Mirri thinks Dany is trying to work a spell and she makes the same arguments that you made there, basically you don't know what you're doing and it will never work. Later, Dany says "I thank you, MMD, for the lessons you have taught me... I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life."

To say that all it took was a hotter fire to do it takes something away from Dany. Throughout the series we see Dany being forged from the weak girl she was into the strong ruler she is (supposedly) meant to be. The first book she is hardened, later she is tempered. She constantly turns adversity into opportunity, always learning from what happens. I believe Mirri wants to leave Dany in the state that Mirri is in, broken and everything taken from her. While Mirri succeeds in her plan, it doesn't break Dany and in fact she takes from her the key to finally accomplishing everything she intends to do on her own terms.

On a different track, I think Dany getting the dragons at this point is a message from GRRM to the reader that, like the Lannisters, he always pays his debts. In this case Dany doesn't have to wait long (though she and us will have to wait and wait and wait before she can actually do anything important), and it's not really a fair trade, but it is one means of accomplishing her goal traded for another. So we can take some heart that eventually the Starks will get something in return for Ned. We just might have to wait a while. But I'm sure by the middle of the third book good things will be happening for them ;)

Not meaning to take anything away from Dany, but to be honest, I didn't think it necessary for her to become a "blood magician" to become great. There was no hint during the pyre scene that she did anything magical or mystical (well, except not burn to death, heh) so it never occurred to me that she did anything other than get the eggs hot enough to hatch. She didn't chant, she didn't dance, she didn't wave a dagger around or pour blood on the eggs or anything like that. She let 'em get good and hot, then walked in and picked 'em up.

Of course there's a chance that the "spell" worked without her actively doing anything (envisions demons waiting by the pyre for someone to die, then saying "Okay, we got one, let's hatch these things so we can be back in time for Seinfeld.") but that seems a bit off-the-wall to me. Magic by proxy? Spontaneous spell generation? Meh, who knows. I just don't like the idea.

Dany sacrificed Mirri, in my opinion, as much to Drogo and to her people as she did to hatch the eggs. In order to be a leader, she must learn to do hard things (as evidenced with the Unsullied) and this is the first step toward her hardening. The hatching was a natural response to the heat, and IMHO the only magic involved on her part was... like I said, not burning to death in the process.

An innate affinity with fire is one thing, the ability to cast a powerful spell after being exposed to it once and never doing anything to actively partake in it is totally another.