[ADwD Spoilers] The Fallout at the Wall

[The Crow Beyond the Wall]

Isn't there a line in ADWD about the Wall's magic only lasting while the NW stayed true to their purpose or the old gods? I've been searching my copy trying to find it, but I'm not having any luck right now.

If so (I'm 90% positive I recall reading something like this), do you think the magic of the Wall could begin to fade if there is an all out fight between Jon's supporters and his betrayers? Or if Mel uses her magic to revive him?

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Are you talking about letting the Wildlings through the wall (good) or the mission to Hardhome (bad)?

Is there anyone who thinks that the mission to Hardhome is a good idea?

I do. A very risky mission. But given the circumstances it made sense.

1) Jon realizes his main goal is to save the realms of men. Jon realizes the wildlings are "men" and part of what he is supposed to protect. There are men at Hardholme and that's jon's first priority, to save as many of them as he can.

2) Any man, woman or child they save is one more person who can help hold the wall

3) Any man, woman or child they save is one less person they need to fight

4) Its risky yes. But does Jon have all the facts others do? Jon's no sailor--its not clear to me he has ever seen the ocean for that matter when he was past the age of 1--and has no idea of the hardships and risks of the voyage.

5) As Mormont discussed possibly doing with Sam on the Fist, as Stannis tells Jon he has seen clearly, they need the wildlings to hold the wall. The rest of Westoros doesn't care. Jon has agreed with Stannis, reached the same conclusion as Mormont did on his own. Jon's decision to try a rescue at Hardholme is a further step down the path he has already decided is the NW's best choice.

6) Calling out decisions with the benefit of hindsight is not a proper way to evaluate whether the decision was a good one in the first place. Jon knew it was very risky.

I'll definitely agree things worked out quite badly at hardholme so far and are likely to get worse. Still, I thought trying to rsecue thousands at hardholme a gutsy call and a good one by Jon Snow.

Jon's not a sailor so he's not really a great judge of the danger to the ships. But he knows that 1) the mened

[Cydal]

Note Mel says "grave" need of her. Double entendre much?

I think Mel is much more skilled than fat boy drinking buddy Thoros in the dead raising department and all sorts of other fire magics. But she only brings Jon back if/when she recognises that Jon is AA2 not Stannis.

I think you're wrong... It's AA2.0 not AA2 :D

[Cydal]

Hey everyone. I got introduced to the series through the HBO show and read all the books within the last few months. I finished A Dance With Dragons a couple days ago and I'm kinda bored with nothing to read now, luckily, I found this.

I read a lot of your comments and I think they're really great. There's a few things I wanted to mention that I haven't seen anywhere, probably because it would take me 3 months to read every post in this thread.

About Jon Snow's final moments in A Dance With Dragons.

The last sentence really intrigues me. "Only the cold..."

First of all the sentence never comes to an end. "Only the cold" is followed by . . . which usually means an incomplete thought. I can't recall GRRM ever ending a chapter like that before, so there's no reference point, but I'll admit I haven't looked through all the books for previous examples.

I like the . . . because it makes me think something is happening right at that moment that's very important that hasn't been revealed to us yet. And I'm safely assuming, that if I'm write it's something very important to the series.

As for the words "only the cold." When you read it, immediately you think Jon fell in the snow and didn't feel the 4th knife because his body was going into shock and he only felt the cold of the snowy ground. But it's mentioned a few times before in Bran and Sam chapters that right before the Others come it gets extremely, unimaginably cold. Is that what GRRM means by "only the cold . . ." ?? Are the Others attacking at that very moment?

Any thoughts on this?

I like this. I said as much in some other post a while back. My reason for thinking this was because of Mel's prophecy when she told him about the daggers in the dark, then she said it was very cold to which Jon responded to it always being cold on the wall and she said You know nothing. She said impossibly cold like it was what she felt after he was stabbed. What I actually thought was that maybe the Others are rising again because The NW haven't been true.

"I am the shield that guards the realms of men"

But they haven't been since they've been fighting men for a while and lost sight of their true purpose. Maybe by killing a 2nd lord Commander, the one that was true to those vow, that was the last straw that broke the magic of the wall that will allow the Others to pass.

[Cydal]

Isn't there a line in ADWD about the Wall's magic only lasting while the NW stayed true to their purpose or the old gods? I've been searching my copy trying to find it, but I'm not having any luck right now.

If so (I'm 90% positive I recall reading something like this), do you think the magic of the Wall could begin to fade if there is an all out fight between Jon's supporters and his betrayers? Or if Mel uses her magic to revive him?

It wasn't in ADWD, It was in AGOT. Old Nan told Bran not to be scared because the monsters can not pass through the wall as long as the NW stayed true.

[Old Gods Be Good]

There's a good chance Jon Snow doesn't die from the attack in ADWD. He was able to move away from the attempt at his throat causing it to not be fatal. Many times a stab to the belly isn't fatal either. As for the 3rd stab in between the shoulders, well, that could be bad, but doesn't necessarily have to lead to a fatal wound either. And the 4th knife, we have no idea where that was put. We only know that he never felt it for whatever reason. Assuming he wasn't stabbed more than 4 times he could very well live through the attack.

GRRM is such a great writer that it seems to predictable to have Jon become UnDead. It was really cool when Beric was still alive. And it a great shocker when we found out Catelyn had been revived by Thoros too. But to do that again would be way too predictable considering Melisandre is there. There must be some other explanation.

He's got a lot of scars now though that's for sure.

[Flint]

There's a good chance Jon Snow doesn't die from the attack in ADWD. He was able to move away from the attempt at his throat causing it to not be fatal. Many times a stab to the belly isn't fatal either. As for the 3rd stab in between the shoulders, well, that could be bad, but doesn't necessarily have to lead to a fatal wound either. And the 4th knife, we have no idea where that was put. We only know that he never felt it for whatever reason. Assuming he wasn't stabbed more than 4 times he could very well live through the attack.

GRRM is such a great writer that it seems to predictable to have Jon become UnDead. It was really cool when Beric was still alive. And it a great shocker when we found out Catelyn had been revived by Thoros too. But to do that again would be way too predictable considering Melisandre is there. There must be some other explanation.

He's got a lot of scars now though that's for sure.

I would like to think that Jon's wounds were definitley fatal and for me the only options that GRRM has are to either have Jon remain dead or have melisandre revive him after events at the wall truly have hit the fan and like you said it would be a little too predictable to have Jon become UnJon but i think as long as it's doesn't happen too early in the book GRRM might be able to pull it off.

[Old Gods Be Good]

I would like to think that Jon's wounds were definitley fatal and for me the only options that GRRM has are to either have Jon remain dead or have melisandre revive him after events at the wall truly have hit the fan and like you said it would be a little too predictable to have Jon become UnJon but i think as long as it's doesn't happen too early in the book GRRM might be able to pull it off.

Assuming Jon's wounds were fatal then I guess there's a bunch of options.

He could become UnDead from the Red Priest

Maybe he'll become a Wight. By the way, how cool would it be to have a POV from a Wight?

Perhaps he lives on through Ghost, assuming Ghost isn't killed as well.

Another thought is that Jon gets the Robb/Grey Wind treatment and both Jon and Ghost are killed and their heads get switched.

As much as I like Jon a lot, him simply dying may be for the best. I love the supernatural stuff as much as the next guy but if it takes over the storyline it might cheapen the series, which has always been about the people, more than the magic.

Flat out dead, or never killed in the attack seem like the best options.

[hotweaselsoup]

I think it's conceivable that Jon's consciousness inhabits Ghost, while his body goes into a sort of cryogenic stasis. In other words, he doesn't really die - he just gets put on ice for a while. "Flash frozen", kinda. Could the breaking of the Night's Watch - either via the Lord Commander breaking his vows, or the Night's Watch attempt on their Lord Commander's life - be all that's needed to break the Wall? In other words, the Night's Watch is no longer true, ergo the wards that held back the Others are broken as well - so the extreme cold that Jon feels (and that Mel warns him is coming) is the Others passing through the Wall?

[Old Gods Be Good]

I think it's conceivable that Jon's consciousness inhabits Ghost, while his body goes into a sort of cryogenic stasis. In other words, he doesn't really die - he just gets put on ice for a while. "Flash frozen", kinda. Could the breaking of the Night's Watch - either via the Lord Commander breaking his vows, or the Night's Watch attempt on their Lord Commander's life - be all that's needed to break the Wall? In other words, the Night's Watch is no longer true, ergo the wards that held back the Others are broken as well - so the extreme cold that Jon feels (and that Mel warns him is coming) is the Others passing through the Wall?

Yes. I like that. Especially the extreme cold thing you said with the Others. That line "he only felt the cold" is begging to be analyzed relentlessly.

Another interesting thing that may mean something, is that Snow's raven called him "Jon Snow," and Jon made note of how that hadn't happened before. That chapters jam packed with strangeness.

[The Crow Beyond the Wall]

It wasn't in ADWD, It was in AGOT. Old Nan told Bran not to be scared because the monsters can not pass through the wall as long as the NW stayed true.

Ah, thanks. Maybe this could have something to do with this part of the story as well.

[Ghost Rider]

I think it's conceivable that Jon's consciousness inhabits Ghost, while his body goes into a sort of cryogenic stasis. In other words, he doesn't really die - he just gets put on ice for a while. "Flash frozen", kinda. Could the breaking of the Night's Watch - either via the Lord Commander breaking his vows, or the Night's Watch attempt on their Lord Commander's life - be all that's needed to break the Wall? In other words, the Night's Watch is no longer true, ergo the wards that held back the Others are broken as well - so the extreme cold that Jon feels (and that Mel warns him is coming) is the Others passing through the Wall?

I agree that there's a high possibility that Jon didn't die from his wounds. He might not have felt the 4th knife, because it never inflicted a wound. I think he will be in coma like state comparable to Bran after his fall in AGOT. That will serve to enhance Jon's magical powers.

About the cold: when I read that, I immediately thought of a possible Other attack. Jon has warged Ghost before and hasn't ever felt any special cold. Now Varamyr... if you remember... was killed by Wights. There may have been Others close as well. The NW surely isn't true to its original purpose anymore. In fact, Jon seems to plough a lonely furrow concerning the true meaning of the NW vow. So the NW guys not only murder their own commander, but the only man who is really committed to the NW vow. Spilling king's blood unwittingly in the process, which could set into motion some magic with the Wall so close.

The only problem I see in the Other theory: How could anybody (including Jon) survive such an assault? Or won't it be a full-out assault yet? Or does the cold sweeping in just mean that the magic of the Wall is broken and that it no longer serves as a protection against the Others? Then what about the Horn of Winter? Is it not needed after all to break the Wall?

Anyway, I would be very surprised if anything but carnage follows after the assassination attempt.

[Old Gods Be Good]

As we all know, there's a very popular theory that Jon Snow is the child of Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. If this is true, with 2 books remaining and the story approaching the final act it actually makes sense that something drastic would have to happen to set Jon on the right course to fulfill his destiny as an heir to the Iron Throne.

If he becomes UnDead, or anything supernatural beyond the Warg he already is, I think the story would be jumping shark big time. I love the fantasy stuff, but I especially love that GRRM keeps it subtle for the most part. For every mysterious character there's a very human one that's relatable and faced with real problems that affect us all.

I like Jon, Jaime and Tyrion because they're inspirational and brave. They have flaws, and things that hold them back but they keep on fighting. Jon Snow has always had his back against the wall, and then literally the Wall, but he's a tough kid with a clear understanding of right and wrong, and the courage to do something about. I believe that whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger and I hope this is the case with Jon Snow. Hopefully the attack doesn't kill him, instead makes him smarter and is the beginning of his journey to something greater than Lord Commander.

I think he survives the attack. His attackers defend their actions by labelling Snow a deserter. The tired storyline of the Boltons ends soon with Stannis taking Winterfell, with a lot of help from other Northern Lords quickly turning their cloaks on Roose because he's a weirdo and a deuche bag. Stannis gets word of Snow's attack and pardons Jon of his crime of attempted desertion. Now holding Winterfell, Stannis once again makes the sweet offer from the end of Storm of Swords and this time Jon excepts. Jon Snow is named new Lord of Winterfell. I have no idea who becomes new Lord Commander of the Watch, but whoever it is, with the help of Jon the North starts to take the Others seriously.

My theory's a fresh one so Rickon, Arya, Dany, etc. I have no clue how they all tie in.

Thoughts?

[lordthade]

Jon wouldn't accept "Lord of Winterfell". Not as long as Sansa and Arya are unaccounted for in his mind. His sense of Stark-like duty and propriety won't allow it. He's already said no once, anyway.

On the other issue, if he learns somehow that he IS "ice and fire" reborn... why the heck would he accept Winterfell? He should rightfully be king of the entire realm! Maybe Catelyn would worry about Jon taking his birthright, but she's got nothing to worry about. Jon Snow aka Jon Targaryen would be silly to consider himself Lord of Winterfell. Indeed, it forces Stannis-- if anything-- into an odd place as now he's the brother of the "usurper" again and Jon can't have him claiming the throne.

[Old Gods Be Good]

I figure Jon won't find out about his true parents until much later in the story.

And as for Jon not excepting Lord of Winterfell, he was really considering it the first time. In fact, had Stannis not asked him to except R'hollr it seemed like Jon was about to do it. Then of course he was thrust into roll of Lord Commander. However, I think after being stabbed by his fellow watchmen, he may not care so much anymore for his old Gods. And if he lives the attack and Melisandre has anything to do with it, he could very well embrace R'hollr, Melisandre and Stannis. Getting stabbed repeatedly by your friends has a way of changing a person I'd think.

[lordthade]

If he survives he still can't break his vows. The perpetrators may be punished or they might finish their attempts, but he's still a member of the Night's Watch. If he takes Winterfell (even with Stannis-- who hardly has claim to being king as of now) it would seem to me he's still a turncloak. Ned would never condone it.

[Old Gods Be Good]

It's hard to imagine exactly what the "fallout" will be if he survives. Maybe there'd be some trial to prove he wasn't going to desert and storm Winterfell. Although he never meant to take the castle. All he said was he wanted to make Ramsay answer for his threat. It was personal with Ramsay.

Jon's also broke his vows twice that I can think of off the top of my head, he's just done it without his brothers knowing.

1) He was giving it to Ygritte pretty good for a while

2) And this is a big one. He took part in the war, aiding Stannis with great counsel and strategy. The Night's Watch does not take place in the wars of the realm.

[ZooDane]

I think so too. The wall will fall and Jon can´t be blamed because he was dead when it happened. But I think after that Jon will be retrived somehow. I hope it happens in a way that allows Jon to stay a POV-Character.

Jon was by far my favorite character throughout all 5 books. I was really upset when he died.

Anyways I think you're right. Jon is the only character in the novels who consistently makes the right choices and he is just about the only character that can be claimed to be "good". He always did what was asked of him and kept all of his vows. He was offered Winterfell, esentially becoming a very powerful lord, but chose to keep his vows to the Nights Watch. He was very unselfish. The final straw that made him snap was in the defense of his sister (or so he thinks) and to save the north from a butcher who flays people and is a monster. So it would make sense that Jon is taken away from The Wall, against his will (his "death") so that he will not be at fault for the collapse of The Wall to the Others.

So basically if Jon is brought back to life it won't be for at least half, if not the majority of, the 6th book.

However, I don't think Jon will be coming back. GRRM is introducing a ton of new characters and story lines, or at least opening them up. So I think he is now killing off Jon to give many characters more major roles in the comming books.

As much as I liked Jon and want to see him somehow live through the ordeal, I don't see it happening. I'm a little biased as well because I liked Jon. I'd rather not see him come back now. If he comes back, he will in no way be the same character. He will be seen as an abomination like UnCat, he will have to do much more unspeakable things to fulfil the profecies of Azor Ahai. Remember he tempered his sword in his wife's chest. So with that said Jon would likely have to create Lightbringer by killing someone dear to him, perhaps Ghost. Not only that but Rhllor seems to like when his followers burn people? So Jon will likely be burning tons of people in sacrifice to Rhllor if he is reborn as Azor Ahai. Anyways, this isn't really reasons that he wouldn't be brought back, it's more or less why I don't want him to be brought back.

[ZooDane]

I've also seen a ton of other interesting points on here...

I hadn't thought about, and therefore was most interested in, Jons parents. There are a lot of things I can think of for and against Jon actually being a Targaryen...

All we hear about is Ned's honor in the first book. He always does the honorable thing, and the only time he rebukes his honor, he does it in the most honorable way - saving his daughters. So how could he possibly have a bastard? He also refused to talk of Jon's mother with even Robert Baratheon, his close friend. Which could be because he does not want to divulge too much information about Jon's past. Not only that, but he obviously wouldn't want to tell Robert that there was still a Targaryen alive because that would be a threat to the throne and Robert would kill Jon. Think, Robert tried to have Daenerys and Viserys killed when they were mere children.

However... Why would Ned raise a Targaryen child when he just took part in a major rebellion to remove the Targaryens from power. Not to mention that a Targaryen burned his brother alive. And then a counter argument to that would be Elia and the Targaryen children that were slaughtered by Tywin Lannister. Ned could have been defending Jon from a similar fate. But anways it's all speculation... I have no idea what's coming next... too bad we'll have to wait at least 2 years to know...

And then for the talk about it being very cold when Jon died. I think there could be a lot that could be going on. For one, I think the Wall will have lost it's "magic" against the Others because the Nights Watch has lost their way. The Others always come when it is extremely cold, and the Wall prevented the Others from passing. So perhaps the Wall protected the realm from this extreme cold and that is why the Others couldn't pass. So perhaps this extreme cold could just be the signaling that the Wall now has no magic and the cold is now sweeping down into Westeros paving way for the Others who will soon attack.

Also, Jon was trying to hold two dead bodies in the ice cells to learn about the weights. We also know that Cold Hands, who I think is a "good" Other and Benjen Stark, has helped Bran. There is always the possibility that Jon becomes a "Cold Hands" and leads the fight against the Others as one of them? Thats more of a "bold prediction". I don't really believe that but just a fun thought :P

[The GRRumbler]

While i believe Jon is dead there is still the possibility that, Melisandre being a red priest herself, she can do as Thoros did with Berric, though he would problably comeback, you know... changed.