[ADwD Spoilers] Jon and Dany character devolution

[Total Depravity]

I actually think Hardhome's quite important. The details of its past, the fact that Melisandre has apparently had a vision of fighting taking place there behind a wooden wall with fire arrows arcing out... there's something to it.

Jon's actual reasoning is absolutely sound, in any case. Letting the Others collect thousands of wights more doesn't seem a sound policy. If he has to spend a few hundred men to get the wildlings out, well, it's worth the risk, despite it all. Marsh and Yarwick are rigid men who can't see further than their own biases.

And Dany, you can't rule in the same fashion that you conqueor. She had to learn. It's not as if she never made choices -- marrying Hizdahr, having the wineseller's daughters put to the question "sharply", subduing the hinterland, allying with Lhazar, etc. are all fairly reasonable actions in the name of stabiltiy and peace, and some of them aren't necessarily easy actions to take. Most importantly of all, the peace she tried to make was working -- the Shavepate admits it. Drogon broke it, though, and matters were only compounded from there.

I'm not sure what this is about slavery resuming. One notes that she never actually set out to wipe out slavery as a predominant goal. She had the Yunkish free their slaves... but she never required them not to make more slaves, and in Meereen she allowed men and women to sell themselves into slavery of their own volition, if they wished. She states a sort of long-term vision, I believe, but she's manifestly not trying to make it happen when she has much more present problems to deal with (the Sons of the Harpy, the dragons, the faltering economic situation, the pale mare, etc.) and is satisfied with having ended the slave trade in Meereen.

We love you Ran. But I think you are too close to this. Can you not acknowledge there is some serious mischaracterization happening with the two? They felt night and day. This week I went back and reread SoS and AFFC after finishing ADWD. Night and Day. I love that Dany needs to realize that she is NOT The Mother. She is THE Dragon. I love that Jon needs to reshape the NW to the reality in front of them. But his unilateral decisions reminded me more of George Bush than Ceasar. So as we read these two plodding through the plot, they seriously do not even feel like the same characters. You could tell after the 2nd POVs that they were going to lose their commands in spectacularly horrible fashion. These were not the leaders he had been so finely crafting prior to the chronological clusterf*ck. I think that is a fair conclusion. Do you?

He would have reduced the scale significantly if he really decided to shift his focus to getting it adapted for television. Indeed, one of the premises of James Poniewozik's review is that AFfC and ADwD present huge structural problems for adaptation to television -- there are things that he does that only really work in literature, and if anything, there's even more of that in these novels than the earlier novels:

Totally agree. George's decisions to not show important battles or to shrink / expand scale at uncharacteristic intervals has been around for ages. I read ADWD with HBO in mind and didn't find anything that proved that television was overly influencing his writing.

[Total Depravity]

Very true, and GRRM aims for realism in human behavior, which I for one appreciate.

Oversimplification. This is not what happens to their characters. They almost completely regressed. That is very different than slipping into old habits once and a while.

[Steve Moss]

I love that Jon needs to reshape the NW to the reality in front of them. But his unilateral decisions reminded me more of George Bush than Ceasar.

1. Despite being a bastard, Jon was raised a son of Eddard Stark, a great lord who ruled half of Westeros. Jon was raised to be a commander, a leader. He is a medieval warlord, an autocrat. He is not let's sit around the table, have a pot of tea, and talk about our emotions type of guy.

2. Despite the above, he DID explain his reasoning to Marsh, Yarrick and the Septon. More than once. They chose not to listen. They are traitors in every sense of the word.

[DBaron]

You must be reading a different book.

Not only is Jon a great LC, he's probably the best ruler in the series that's still alive.

Opening the Wall to the Wildings was both a practical and moral choice for Jon who defined the realms of men to include Wildings. The Wall wasn't built to keep out Wildings, it was built to keep out the Others. Morally, that's a lot of men, women and children who would be left to fend for themselves. Practically, he had to bring those Wildings south of the wall because the NW was undermanned and he needed to garrison more forts. Also the Wildings who would be trapped north of the wall would just become wights and augment the forces of the Others anyway. Also those Wildings would eventually try to breach the Wall again because they wouldn't have any other choice and that would only weaken the Wall's defenses.

And once he opened the Wall to the wildings, Jon also integrated the wildings into Westeros society through marriage alliances.

Jon's leadership was too progressive and forward thinking for the sensibilities of the old fashioned brothers such as Bowen Marsh who represent the old Night's Watch that was slowly dying. Most of the Watch's castles were allowed to fall into ruin. Jon saved the Nights Watch, but unfortunately, he was killed for it.

Jon was doing all pretty well up toward the end when he became one of the worst leaders in the series. I agree with you on his choices, up to the point where he decides on sending people back to hardhome. It is just throwing good money after bad IMO, money he didn't have to spend. In the last chapter pretty much everyone tells him, he even doubts it, and its plainly a suicide mission yet he still goes along with it then opts out of leading it???? Instead hes going to run south with his new wildling friends to do what? Yeah Jon saved the nights watch, but then had a total melt down in the last chapter and threw it all away.

And wasn't morment or eddard thinking about resettling the gift with wildings? I could be wrong on that, but I thought it was mentioned.

[Sega AM2]

And wasn't morment or eddard thinking about resettling the gift with wildings? I could be wrong on that, but I thought it was mentioned.

Eddard and many Lords of Winterfell before him wished to settle The Gift with people from the North. It would have augmented the strength of Night's Watch and give them a larger food supply and less dependance on trade for goods and supplies. I don't think that they wanted to settle it with Wildlings and Giants. I believe Jon even comments to himself how odd it is that that the Lords of Winterfell have dreamed of resettling The Gift and now it is happening but with Wildlings of all people.

[fancySansa]

When did I say use ghost to attack the NW?

He - ghost - has saved Jon's life numerous times. He has never attacked or growled at anyone who has been "good". Yet Jon, in all his wiseness, declares he is marchign south, leaving the wall, forfeiting his vows and locks up his wolf when he does this. Dumb.

and BTW, Jon doesnt leave when his father and brother die, but when Ramsay Bolton in all his craziness writes a letter to him, he decides to leave? doesn't make sense

Dany - again, you have 3 dragons and you choose to lock 2 of them up instead of training them or using them bc one supposedly eats a child.

I agree about Ghost. That was stupid, Jon.

But about Ramsay's letter: I thought a huge reason for him deciding to leave (though it wasn't stated outright) was for Arya (well, "Arya"). Jon tried to leave once to help his family, and his friends persuaded him not to. But Arya is his favorite family member. Before his Caesar incident, he's thinking about her a lot, and helping Alys Karstark mainly because she reminds him of Arya. He thinks about how Arya's just a child, needs someone to protect her, and suddenly he gets this letter and the part that stands out to him is "I want my wife back." There were other reasons for him leaving too, but I really liked the fact that Jon was stupid not just for the sake of being stupid, but because his heart got in the way a bit. People say he's growing cold, but I'm glad he hasn't forgotten Arya and their relationship. And anyway, I don't think there were any better options in terms of dealing with Ramsay. The dude is crazy.

About Dany- Yeah, she's dumb. Having dragons means nothing if you lose your power over them. Less time doing boring Meereen stuff, more time with dragons, please.

[nikkodemus]

If Dany went evil that would be one thing. She just went inept. GRRM goes into the details of every little thing she thinks and i get nothing of real leadership out of anything.

One of my dragons possibly ate a kid, but i suspect it's a lie. Know what I'm going to do? lock up my dragons inevitably.

That part with her vs Drogon in the pit was only good for me cause I thought Martin was going to kill her off as punishment for wasting time. Big dud, now she's back in the dothraki sea to waste more time. The only way I can see me liking Dany again is if she goes way off her rocker like Aerion and tries to turn herself into an actual dragon. Or gives birth to a dragon. I don't want no babies ever after crap. I could get that in a Sword of Truth. This is supposed to be edgy and dark, and Dany who was the first one to start the blood sacrificing action, goes gossip girl one me.

Jon was never stupid before ADWD. Even if he loses faith in Mely fake prophecies. she wasn't totally wrong. just off by a couple of letters, and the girl does look like Arya. Even if somebody who has no powers at all tells me beware the daggers in the night. I beware the fucking daggers.

Jon locks up his direwolf, and that doesn't even compare to what happened with Grey Wolf cause Grey Wolf actually had become a man-killer at that point. And even then, Robb does it grudgingly because he's in another man's house.

Jon is the friggin lord commander, and is hiding Ghost for what reason exactly? To keep it away from the pig who's also locked up? Does the pig and Ghost have an ancient feud that compels them to seek each other out? Is ghost suddenly rabid?

Not to mention his Wilding Messiah spin. What did he expect? Seriously, how was that going to end any other way than with a midnight stabbing? Yeah, he needs to die to come back as AA, but now, I don't want him to be AA anymore. He's suffered a Series of Stupefying Events and became Eddard reborn, and even more oblivious than ned too. Not like Ned had a prophecy to guide him. How do you get a clear as day prophecy like "daggers in the dark", and still get blindsided by daggers in the dark? That's not a plot twist. Not a cliffhanger neither, just standard treatment for people who do asinine things.

I hope he really isn't AA, now. 180 degree turn, but I've jumped off his bandwagon and Dany's too. You don't want Westeros? Well stay in Meereen and eat dog with Daario. Get some diarrhoea every now and again. Fine by me.

What i want to know is is the devolotution intentional by Martin? I can't see how he could think he was moving them forward? Is he highlighting their massive flaws to make way for a less flawed leader in YG/Egg6? Or did he jump the character development shark? To do that by accident with 3 characters? Can 3 POV's be this tedious by accident? Note, he has other parts of the book at top notch old school GRRM styling, like Victarion or Connington and Young Griff. Theon was good, and Davos, and Bran was perfection.

Something major is happening with everybody else except these 3 who get 90% of the screen time. I don't even count Dany's ending as a plot twist. How is it a plot twist if she finds a Dothraki in the middle of the Dothraki sea?

And the other thing with her fertility, isn't that a by-reference to indicate when Drogo was supposed to return to real life Before she burnt him? He's still coming back regardless of being burnt? Does it matter? Is he coming back with the dead son or with powers? Are we supposed to care that she can now reproduce again? That's epic?

GRRM used ADWD to highlight everybody's flaws, Tyrion's as a self-pitying, pseudo-schemer/circus performer. Dany as really being a young girl who knew nothing of X, (she wasn't just saying that for jokes, looks like), A Jon as "Ned 2.0" (he knew nothing. By choice. Self induced stupidity.) Two people who know nothing about nothing, go through hell and back and still revert to knowing nothing? At this point, Jon comes off looking shoddy compared to everyone, even Theon, and that guy spent half the book a a loony. Dany, who does she hold a candle to now? Asha - no. Arya - no. Alys Karstark who has no purpose - no. Crazy ass Cersei - no. Imagine Cersei in Meereen with three dragons. Imagine Cersei anywhere in the ASOIAF with just one dragon. Even Quentyn had more 'umph' to him, and i'm totally blaming Dany for his death. People threatening slaughter and she chains her dragons in a den and plays desperate housewife. For real?

[Dragons Dancing]

I have particularly enjoyed the debate on whether Jon was stupid and broke his oath or was a good LC and it is not clear if he was breaking his oath. I admit to liking Jon's chapters except for the ending. I enjoyed watching Jon evolve into a decent commander and yes I thought he should have taken some kind of action to help the NW non rangers to better understand the "Others" threat and he should not have had Marsh in a command position when he so clearly disagreed with him. Despite this poor judgement, I still like how Jon developed and where he is taking the Watch and the Wildings. The last chapter made me so angry that I regressed as a reader and wanted to say that Jon was totally ignorant. I also wanted throw a rotten egg at GRRM for leaving this as a cliff hanger for who knows how many years. I don't want him to be dead as this will mean that the NW regresses and likely ends up fighting with the wildings instead of preparing for the "Others" and I wanted Jon to be a hero in the end. I am not sure if he is dead dead or not but even if he is not the nice progression at the Wall of building a strong defense is now ended and Jon's status as a possible hero is in question.

I found reading the Dany chapters a slog through. I think GRRM is likely wanting to give her some experience with leading and failing but he could have done it with a lot less chapters. I think he is working hard to find story lines to keep her in the East until when he wants her to arrive in Westeros and that is not too long before the "Others" cross over the Wall. By the way I like the idea posted about the Wall needing to be 700 ft. because of 100 ft snows and even then with drifts the "Others" may still be able to cross. I tend not to think that Dany will be busy seeking a throne when she arrives but rather saving a realm from eternal darkness. She might gain a throne as a result of saving the realm, who knows?

I think the realm will dissolve before she arrives. More war, more disease, more starvation to come and most of the majors houses will have no strength to fight each other or the "Others". If Cersei's prophesy comes true she, her children and one brother will die. This would take the Lannisters out of the game. I like Tyrion and I hope if the prophesy comes true that he is not the brother to chop off Cersei's head but even if he survives he would not be welcome in Lannister land because of killing Tywin. I hope he has a role in the end as Dany's advisor.

I know that my discussion will not compel anyone to change their mind, but wanted to share it after reading all of the posts. I learn so much that I did not see or think about by participating in this forum. Disagreeing is good. It makes us dig deeper and sometimes rethink our positions.

[Kalbear]

I do think Jon's final decision - to rescue the folks at Hardhome and rescue Arya at the same time - is very shortsighted. Splitting forces is a poor choice, and of the two Hardhome is the far more crucial force. Ramsay's threat is pointless and toothless at this point, even if it were true. Either take care of one or the other. DOn't do both.

I do hate how he locks Ghost away. It was lame.

Nevertheless, Jon at least acts. Dany makes few decisions and the ones she ends up making are done after much trepidation and end up being basically bad. She reacts, and she often reacts by getting more and more insular. Jon makes hard choices, one after another: Janos Slynt's execution, accepting the new wildlings, facing up to Stannis multiple times, using Mance, helping Alys, and bringing in Tormund - these were all big aiming choices, and all could pay off.

Where does Dany do anything close to this? The best shot is the marriage, but that's both a poor choice (as it completely seals off her Westeros invasion while giving power to someone who is at the very least close to the Harpy) and an easy one to make. She doesn't make the hard choices, and it makes her both passive and ineffective. Which is a shame; she was able to do that with Yunkai and Astapor. And even Meereen to a certain extent.

For me, the book is very much about Jon. This is Jon's book as COK was Tyrion's; the major events flow around him and his success and failures, and he's certainly the most active of the lot. He develops into a leader that makes hard decisions that get people killed, knowing that he does so for the right reasons, and he still regrets those actions. He doubts but doesn't let that doubt paralyze him. His instincts are strong and reasonable. He gets stabbed because of fear and myopia, but don't mistake that for a loss of loyalty; who else could have allied with both Stannis and the wildlings? His accomplishments are downright Mary-Sueish in this book. He's certainly not dumb.

[Markus]

The way GRRM frames Jon's internal deliberations prior to deciding to go after Ramsay make it quite clear that saving Arya is paramount to him. Jon juxtapositions thoughts about his siblings with countering arguments why he shouldn't go through with his change of plans. In the end he thinks of what Ramsay has done to Mance's spearwives and then repeatedly thinks about Arya. So Jon's decision seems to be framed as a clear choice between love and duty again.

On the other hand, there are apparent benefits to the NW and its' ability to protect the realms of men in taking out the Boltons. Ramsay attacking the NW when Jon doesn't satisfy his impossible demands and further civil war in the North would clearly hinder the NW's ability to do its duty.

While these were seemingly not part of Jon's deliberations immediately prior to informing Tormund of his intentions, it would seem plausible that Jon would still be aware of them. When he later reflects on what he has done he frames it so: "If this is oathbreaking,..."

When he isn't clear about whether he is really breaking his oaths then perhaps it's because he thinks going after Ramsay to save his sister may be breaking tradition and perhaps some aspect of his oath but can still be reconciled with the overall purpose of his oath to protect the realms of men.

It's left somewhat ambigious if we are supposed to think Jon hasn't yet killed the boy to become a man after all because he puts love before duty or that he has become the sort of man who tries to reconcile the two if possible: neither being weak enough to forget his duty for love nor too rigid about his honour to bend (or break) it when it serves a more worthwhile purpose.

[The Bronze Wyvern]

I recently watched 'The Wire' for the first time, and something D'Angelo Barksdale says in a prison book group, concerning 'The Great Gatsby', really helps explain what happens with Jon and Dany: "doesn't matter if some fool say he changed". In Gatsby, it refers to the fact that despite his wealth, Gatsby will never be Daisy's equal because he just isn't from that world. Applied to ADWD, this would mean that no matter how many times Jon says "kill the boy" he IS still a boy, just like Robb was when he married Jeyne Westerling, just like the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne but couldn't hold it (there's a good Ned quote when he tells Jon that Dareon's conquest was flawed). In the same way, Dany appears to have grown ruthless when she gets Drogon to burn the face off the slaver in Astapor and sacks the city, but her natural compassion stops her from abandoning the former slaves who call her "mother" (how many times has it been said that she is like Rhaegar? Honourable but prone to making tragically bad decisions).

If you think about it, people are not consistent. They make mistakes, and don't always learn from them. Expecting characters to act the same way ALL THE TIME is just silly. Jon and Dany are what? Sixteen? I tell you what, I'm a high school teacher and the one thing sixteen year old kids are not is consistent in their decision making.

Having said all of that, Dany's ending was better in this book than Jon's. We've known for some time that Dany needed to go north to go south, etc etc, but Mel's "knives in the dark" warning surfaced only in this book. I said in another thread last night that I suspect GRRM had Jon ignore Mel's warning so that she could say "I told you so" and bring him into the Lord of the Light's fold.

In both cases, I don't think it was bad writing or bad plotting. We just don't have definitive answers- and that's very different. Yes, there are a lot of questions left to be answered, but it's a middle book, what were you expecting?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

When Jon took of Slynt's head, I knew it was too good to last.

[Little Grandfather]

Isn't the point that it's easier to take over, to conquer and rise to the top, than to govern officially? Robert Baratheon was brilliant at winning the Throne, not so good at being a King, it's a different skill-set. Dany and Jon have to change how they operate, Dany can't just sic her Dragons on everyone in Meereen like she did in Astapor, she has to govern them.

[Arya the Free Stark]

I do think Jon's final decision - to rescue the folks at Hardhome and rescue Arya at the same time - is very shortsighted. Splitting forces is a poor choice, and of the two Hardhome is the far more crucial force. Ramsay's threat is pointless and toothless at this point, even if it were true. Either take care of one or the other. DOn't do both.

I do hate how he locks Ghost away. It was lame.

Nevertheless, Jon at least acts. Dany makes few decisions and the ones she ends up making are done after much trepidation and end up being basically bad. She reacts, and she often reacts by getting more and more insular. Jon makes hard choices, one after another: Janos Slynt's execution, accepting the new wildlings, facing up to Stannis multiple times, using Mance, helping Alys, and bringing in Tormund - these were all big aiming choices, and all could pay off.

Where does Dany do anything close to this? The best shot is the marriage, but that's both a poor choice (as it completely seals off her Westeros invasion while giving power to someone who is at the very least close to the Harpy) and an easy one to make. She doesn't make the hard choices, and it makes her both passive and ineffective. Which is a shame; she was able to do that with Yunkai and Astapor. And even Meereen to a certain extent.

For me, the book is very much about Jon. This is Jon's book as COK was Tyrion's; the major events flow around him and his success and failures, and he's certainly the most active of the lot. He develops into a leader that makes hard decisions that get people killed, knowing that he does so for the right reasons, and he still regrets those actions. He doubts but doesn't let that doubt paralyze him. His instincts are strong and reasonable. He gets stabbed because of fear and myopia, but don't mistake that for a loss of loyalty; who else could have allied with both Stannis and the wildlings? His accomplishments are downright Mary-Sueish in this book. He's certainly not dumb.

I completely agree

I think Dany has stagnated as a character, and I guess this is all apart of that Meereenese knot. But I think another point is - whether intentional or not - is that they are both young and have to make mistakes. They are both in positions where they have had very little guidance before hand and this is the consequence. Jon is trying hard to do the right thing and to prepare for the big picture, but he loses sight of what is going on now with his own men in the NW and focuses to much on the Wildlings and Stannis and his people. Dany in comparison, well it's clear she is floundering and is to wrapped up in being a Lovable Queen than an effective one.

But all in all I think that both Dany and Jon as characters were certainly more stagnant, or more slow moving, than what I had expected/hoped for.

[The Snow King]

The way GRRM frames Jon's internal deliberations prior to deciding to go after Ramsay make it quite clear that saving Arya is paramount to him. Jon juxtapositions thoughts about his siblings with countering arguments why he shouldn't go through with his change of plans. In the end he thinks of what Ramsay has done to Mance's spearwives and then repeatedly thinks about Arya. So Jon's decision seems to be framed as a clear choice between love and duty again.

How does it make it clear? Maybe you could explain what makes you so certain, because all I can see is Jon focusing on the part of the letter that states that Bolton doesn't have Arya - he wants his bride back from Jon. And that suggests to me that Jon acting wasn't about Arya, maybe even he decided because with Arya escaping, it stopped being personal and he could stop beating himself about trying to do something that would make his personal wished true.

[acadia]

I actually think Hardhome's quite important. The details of its past, the fact that Melisandre has apparently had a vision of fighting taking place there behind a wooden wall with fire arrows arcing out... there's something to it.

Jon's actual reasoning is absolutely sound, in any case. Letting the Others collect thousands of wights more doesn't seem a sound policy. If he has to spend a few hundred men to get the wildlings out, well, it's worth the risk, despite it all. Marsh and Yarwick are rigid men who can't see further than their own biases.

And Dany, you can't rule in the same fashion that you conqueor. She had to learn. It's not as if she never made choices -- marrying Hizdahr, having the wineseller's daughters put to the question "sharply", subduing the hinterland, allying with Lhazar, etc. are all fairly reasonable actions in the name of stabiltiy and peace, and some of them aren't necessarily easy actions to take. Most importantly of all, the peace she tried to make was working -- the Shavepate admits it. Drogon broke it, though, and matters were only compounded from there.

I'm not sure what this is about slavery resuming. One notes that she never actually set out to wipe out slavery as a predominant goal. She had the Yunkish free their slaves... but she never required them not to make more slaves, and in Meereen she allowed men and women to sell themselves into slavery of their own volition, if they wished. She states a sort of long-term vision, I believe, but she's manifestly not trying to make it happen when she has much more present problems to deal with (the Sons of the Harpy, the dragons, the faltering economic situation, the pale mare, etc.) and is satisfied with having ended the slave trade in Meereen.

John was right to send ships to Hardhome, Jon is stupid to ride out there and try and bring them back himself, that would just be stupid had he done that. As for the assassination attempt, I'm not saying he should not have seen it coming, but the guy was feeling a little invincible.

Dany is a 16 year old gold, and the marriage Hizadar, was jost folly, the peace was not working as she never made peace with Volantene, Hizadar always intended to do what he wanted, Drogon didn't end the peace, he's probably the only that unraveled what would have been her eventual demise, at here King Husbands hands.

[acadia]

I recently watched 'The Wire' for the first time, and something D'Angelo Barksdale says in a prison book group, concerning 'The Great Gatsby', really helps explain what happens with Jon and Dany: "doesn't matter if some fool say he changed". In Gatsby, it refers to the fact that despite his wealth, Gatsby will never be Daisy's equal because he just isn't from that world. Applied to ADWD, this would mean that no matter how many times Jon says "kill the boy" he IS still a boy, just like Robb was when he married Jeyne Westerling, just like the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne but couldn't hold it (there's a good Ned quote when he tells Jon that Dareon's conquest was flawed). In the same way, Dany appears to have grown ruthless when she gets Drogon to burn the face off the slaver in Astapor and sacks the city, but her natural compassion stops her from abandoning the former slaves who call her "mother" (how many times has it been said that she is like Rhaegar? Honourable but prone to making tragically bad decisions).

If you think about it, people are not consistent. They make mistakes, and don't always learn from them. Expecting characters to act the same way ALL THE TIME is just silly. Jon and Dany are what? Sixteen? I tell you what, I'm a high school teacher and the one thing sixteen year old kids are not is consistent in their decision making.

Having said all of that, Dany's ending was better in this book than Jon's. We've known for some time that Dany needed to go north to go south, etc etc, but Mel's "knives in the dark" warning surfaced only in this book. I said in another thread last night that I suspect GRRM had Jon ignore Mel's warning so that she could say "I told you so" and bring him into the Lord of the Light's fold.

In both cases, I don't think it was bad writing or bad plotting. We just don't have definitive answers- and that's very different. Yes, there are a lot of questions left to be answered, but it's a middle book, what were you expecting?

I highly doubt Jon is going into the Lord of the Lights fold. R'hollr is a southron god, and ain't nothing southron about Jon. Plus, Mellisandra can only sometimes understand her visions what makes you think Jon will just up and start trusting her, even after this. That's assuming Jon makes it back into Jons body. This book didn't leave me satisfied at all. Annoyed, the only ending I liked was Tyrion.

[Ellroy]

I don't see any devolution from Jon if not in the last chapter when he leave Ghost in his chambers (c'mon George, you have allready used that trick: Jon should have known better than this, death or not). Yep, he could have leave more friends around him but that would not have saved him at the end since the attack against him seems really improvised and caused by the arrival of Ramsay's letter most of all.

Instead I agree that there is a deconstruction of Dany's charachter in the Mereen storyline. Honestly, I failed to see the inspired and charismatic leader of ASoS in her and her attitude towards Westeros seems a little bit forced upon her charachter and not completely natural.

[Markus]

How does it make it clear? Maybe you could explain what makes you so certain, because all I can see is Jon focusing on the part of the letter that states that Bolton doesn't have Arya - he wants his bride back from Jon. And that suggests to me that Jon acting wasn't about Arya, maybe even he decided because with Arya escaping, it stopped being personal and he could stop beating himself about trying to do something that would make his personal wished true.

"What do you mean to do, crow?”

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

Jon's internal deliberations are framed in such a way that he seems to weigh arguments against going after Ramsay against his recollections of his siblings which signify his love for them. At the end he focuses on what Ramsay did to the wildling women and that Ramsay wants Arya back and announces that he will go after Ramsay.

It's not just important that Ramsay doesn't have Arya presently but that he wants her back to do who knows what with and that he thinks she is with Jon. If Jon wants to refuse Ramsay's demand to give up Arya if she comes to Jon as Ramsay suggests or if he wants to free her if Ramsay catches her himself then he has to fight Ramsay, which is what he decides to do.

I certainly see no reason to think that Jon's attitude towards Ramsay has gotten less personal after Ramsay clearly made it personal with his letter, demands and threats.

Which is not to say that Jon mightn't have had less personal reasons for going after Ramsay which were much more in line with keeping his oath to protect the realms of men than saving his sister. It's just that GRRM chose to frame Jon's actual decision making without to give us these reasons, which leads one to wonder if Jon simply chose love over duty or if he saw the benefits of taking out the Boltons for the purposes of the NW and his love for Arya was simply the deciding factor to bend/break his oath and go after Ramsay.

[Jaime Targaryen]

Anyone who thinks Jon was bad leader read a different book than the one I read.

He had the most progressive and moral vision of any of the kings and queens that I've seen in the series so far. While Dany was floundering in Meereen, Jon was flourishing at the Wall by adapting to the changing times. The old institutions of the Nights Watch were doomed, which Jon saw and acted on. Unlike the other leaders of the Nights Watch like Bowen Marsh who couldn't see past their racist sensibilities, Jon knew that the "realms of men" could be defined to include the Wildings so he brought the Wildings south of the Wall.

This accomplished many things. First, it reduced the supply of wights that were available for the Others. It also gave the Watch more battle tested and hardy men that could be used to garrison most of the forts. Unlike Jon's predecessors who saw the many keeps of the Nights Watch fall into ruin, Jon saw them rebuilt and fortified. Then he used marriages to integrate them into Westeros society. And with the logistical problem of extra mouths to feed, Jon borrowed money from the Iron Bank of Bravos and forced the Wildings to give much of their wealth as well.

Jon's men killed him for this, that's true. But that's not Jon's fault. That's the fault of Bowen Marsh and everyone else who lacked the moral and political vision to see that Jon was acting in their best interests of the Watch and in the best interests of the realms of men. The irony is that when Bowen Marsh and his conspirators put their knives in Jon's back and called out, "For the Watch," they killed the one man who truly stood for the Watch, especially in the changing realities of the world that they lived in.

Good decision making doesn't make a great leader. Getting your men to go along with your decisions even when they disagree does. That's what "leader" means. Jon was a great leader before he was Commander and up until after Slint died. Then it was all downhill. Yes, you're right, his treatment of the wildlings was excellent. He did a horrifically bad job of getting his men on board though, and that's bad leadership.