[ADwD Spoilers] Sorcery in Last Jon Chapter?

[Kalasin]

Now that I re-read my post I think I actually could have hit on something with the Dany parallel. She frees the slaves and becomes their "mother" as her route to power, turning her back on the traditional power balance in the region. Jon is saving the wildlings from the others, and in doing so shifting the entire way things are done at the Wall and probably, when all is said and done, gaining quite a bit of allegiance from them.

Since they're the two "hero" characters of the books, it would be interesting if they had these parallel paths.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Rydis]

Re Mel's involvement - I find it notable that she left the hall. There has to be something to that. As I see it, either she is involved (we all know she's good at manipulating men, Jon notwithstanding), or she knew what was coming and wanted to leave either to not have to watch it, or to prepare herself to intervene. I think the likelihood that she saves him is strong - they already set up the red priests' healing power with an otherwise-seemingly-useless chapter about Victarion. Or she could resurrect him. Whether it's because she wants to control him, or she finally believes he's AA, or she's just doing him a solid, that I don't know.

Except it didn't happen in the hall. He was already talking back to his quarters when he heard the scream of the Knight. They were all in the courtyard or wherever Wun Wun was kept. Either way, this wouldn't of been a planned assassination attempt because it involved one of the queens men killed.

[tripleneck]

What's wrong with Jon Snow just actually being dead? Other POV's could take up the story at the wall/beyond the wall. We already have heard Melisandre's thoughts. Bran is somewhere north of there and he will obviously be "ranging," whether in his warg state or his own body. Sam Tarly might make it back up there to witness the shit to go down, too.

[Kalasin]

Except it didn't happen in the hall. He was already talking back to his quarters when he heard the scream of the Knight. They were all in the courtyard or wherever Wun Wun was kept. Either way, this wouldn't of been a planned assassination attempt because it involved one of the queens men killed.

I realize that, but there is a point about her slipping out and him looking for her and not seeing her. I think that had to have been put in for a reason.

Why does the queen's man being killed mean one thing over another? It still could have been planned.

[Rydis]

I realize that, but there is a point about her slipping out and him looking for her and not seeing her. I think that had to have been put in for a reason.

Why does the queen's man being killed mean one thing over another? It still could have been planned.

By who? How could Bowen Marsh and Wick planned to have the queens personal guard attack Wun Wun to draw out John. Surely this knight didn't willingly go to his death so they could kill the Lord Commander. I could seen the queen behind it, but she wouldn't sacrifice her knights, especially if she believed Stannis would return to deal with him. It also means one less knight to protect her when the shit hits the fan, which it will do.

Mel would of left the Hall because she was disappointed. She don't want Jon to leave, regardless of where he goes.

The death of the queens man being killed is what brought Jon, it has to mean something.

[Dio Forel]

The 3EC having an involvement in this would make no sense whatsoever. He had to send Coldhands out to fetch Bran for him, and his messages come in dreams. Even if, why would the 3EC make this happen with Bran sitting right there with him? He is so busy trying to sculpt Bran into the world's greatest Warg, why would he then take part in the murder of Jon? Like hey let's do it so he can somehow be reborn and realize the prophecy?

The whole concept of the assassination being orchestrated by skinchanging or sorcery doesn't make much sense to me. If they were trying to implicate the Night's Watch by saying "For the watch", why then after say "It wasn't me"? Like hey the NW was responsible, nahhh just kidding somebody possessed me it was NOT for the Watch, our bad.

I think he very possibly could be dead right now, though. Smoking wound and all... the last thing he felt was cold. If there was magic being put through him at that point by means of Fire magic, wouldn't he feel some heat instead running through him? Melisandre kept warning Jon because she was afraid of his end. He would not heed her warning so his end came to pass. With all of that said, we don't know his body is lost, so of course the possibility is there for a healing by Melisandre. I just think why would she be so worried about his end in her flames if it was something she could heal afterwards anyway? Why warn Jon about something that she could just fix when the mayhem subsides?

Of course... part of him lives in Ghost, so maybe that is why he said "Ghost", maybe he sensed he was near and slipped into his body. The boy with the wolf's face howling could be when Jon warged into Ghost upon his demise.

Personally, I hope he lives on somehow in the story. Why make such a big deal of his parentage and the song of Ice and Fire if his part in the story has come to an end. The clues are there for the PtwP and AA prophecies to have some merit so hopefully there is something to that. It is strange though that on one of the forums about Jon's parentage I said wouldn't it be interesting if when we actually found out the truth of his birth, it would be irrelevant because he was dead when the truth came out. I hope I wasn't right there, but I guess I will be waiting another few years until we find out more.

[Rydis]

because nothing in that chapter resembled Jon at all. From his dialogue to his actions, everything was wrong. Nothing was in character for him. It's also important to mention, that while whe couldn't reach for Longclaw because of his hand..he was easily able to pull the dagger out..

[Kalasin]

By who? How could Bowen Marsh and Wick planned to have the queens personal guard attack Wun Wun to draw out John. Surely this knight didn't willingly go to his death so they could kill the Lord Commander. I could seen the queen behind it, but she wouldn't sacrifice her knights, especially if she believed Stannis would return to deal with him. It also means one less knight to protect her when the shit hits the fan, which it will do.

Mel would of left the Hall because she was disappointed. She don't want Jon to leave, regardless of where he goes.

The death of the queens man being killed is what brought Jon, it has to mean something.

I'm of the opinion that we have no idea what happened with the knight and Wun Wun. We don't know why Wun Wun did what he did. We don't know if it was a coincidence or a planned distraction. We really just have no idea.

I'm sorry, but I also don't believe we have any idea what Mel could have been thinking/planning/know about when she left the hall. It could be a million different things.

[Rydis]

I'm of the opinion that we have no idea what happened with the knight and Wun Wun. We don't know why Wun Wun did what he did. We don't know if it was a coincidence or a planned distraction. We really just have no idea.

I'm sorry, but I also don't believe we have any idea what Mel could have been thinking/planning/know about when she left the hall. It could be a million different things.

which is my point, there is too much unknown and coincidence for it to have been a planned attack.

[Kalasin]

which is my point, there is too much unknown and coincidence for it to have been a planned attack.

"Too much coincidence" is an argument for it being a planned attack. Regardless, I have no opinion on whether or not it's a planned attack, which I don't think we know yet. But unless I'm missing something that doesn't have anything to do with any of my original points.

[Rydis]

Right..eh hard to explain what I mean ;)

I still will go with it not being real. Either by dream or by the same way they guised Mance as Rattleshirt. The whole chapter just seems wrong. Nothing makes sense, almost everyone is out of character..

[dvcc]

hey i don t recall anyone thinking about this but what if melisandre used her magic to make jon and tormund switch apearances?

this might explain a lot of the things that happened because jon wouldn' t really break his vows (as tormund he wouldn't be leaving south...), he would have a way to save everyone, he realy wanted to help pyke, there wouldn't be any LC for him and this way the NW wouldn' t be doing a really bad treason, just killing the wildling king...

however this wouldn' t be any help about jon's death but explains nearly everything.

[Rydis]

hey i don t recall anyone thinking about this but what if melisandre used her magic to make jon and tormund switch apearances?

this might explain a lot of the things that happened because jon wouldn' t really break his vows (as tormund he wouldn't be leaving south...), he would have a way to save everyone, he realy wanted to help pyke, there wouldn't be any LC for him and this way the NW wouldn' t be doing a really bad treason, just killing the wildling king...

however this wouldn' t be any help about jon's death but explains nearly everything.

i mentioned a similar thing..but I would hope not tormund..I love his character haha

[dvcc]

i mentioned a similar thing..but I would hope not tormund..I love his character haha

I only said tor because he was with jon all the time and jon seems to trust the guy.

besides he is one of the few people I can see bowen marsh trying to kill

However if they switched appearances and if they attack the pearson with tor's appearance who they are realy attacking is jon.

so you can be happy! Tor wouldn t be at risk of dying

[Dragons Dancing]

I have read all of these theories but none are convincing. I go with those who say that this chapter makes no sense given what we know of Jon and the other characters. If it was Jon's time to die, George would have made it clear that he was dead. If the scene happened as described and is not a dream or some kind of magic glamour, I think he lives and perhaps lives without magical interference. This is where I am leaving it until the next book and if he is dead then I will be shocked.

[Kalasin]

If it was Jon's time to die, George would have made it clear that he was dead.

I agree - it's too big a character not to have a clearer death - it would be a very anticlimactic plot point for us to wonder until the next book comes out and then we start the next book and some other character is like "yeah, well the LC was killed recently...." There has to be more to it.

I still think it's entirely possible that the wounds are not fatal and he just shows up convalescing at the beginning of the next book, maybe in hiding (and maybe with his consciousness in Ghost). George just made it this dramatic to make it a huge freak out cliffhanger (there aren't really many others). At least, that's what I hope. Maybe that's just my wishful thinking though.

[dvcc]

I agree - it's too big a character not to have a clearer death - it would be a very anticlimactic plot point for us to wonder until the next book comes out and then we start the next book and some other character is like "yeah, well the LC was killed recently...." There has to be more to it.

I still think it's entirely possible that the wounds are not fatal and he just shows up convalescing at the beginning of the next book, maybe in hiding (and maybe with his consciousness in Ghost). George just made it this dramatic to make it a huge freak out cliffhanger (there aren't really many others). At least, that's what I hope. Maybe that's just my wishful thinking though.

I think 99% of the readers don t think he will die now...

but at least i hope something cool happen. honestly I m hopping that after feeling the cold he as some kind of encouter with the big other while he is dead and before beeing healed. then while he is healing instead os beeing asleep he might warg into ghost providing some pov of what is happening at the wall.

[Kalasin]

I think 99% of the readers don t think he will die now...

but at least i hope something cool happen. honestly I m hopping that after feeling the cold he as some kind of encouter with the big other while he is dead and before beeing healed. then while he is healing instead os beeing asleep he might warg into ghost providing some pov of what is happening at the wall.

Well, there's not dying and there's dying-plus-resurrection. I think 99% of people think this isn't the end for Jon, but he could still be dead :)

[eddsmonkey]

I never got the idea that Jon's final chapter was much of a cliffhanger. The fact that so many NW members openly attacked their LC led me to believe they wouldn't just leave him unconcious in the snow and say "good enough". I figure they'd stab him until they were positive that he was well and truly dead, cause if they botched it and Jon turned out to be alive they'd be in some seriously deep shit when he wakes up.

But, even if they didn't finish the job, I imagine his life expectancy wouldn't be very high. He was still stabbed in the belly which usually means a slow, painful death in those days if they hit the intestines, as well as being stabbed three other times at least. Not to mention Castle Black's lack of a maester at present, meaning no one has the medical know-how to recooperate such extensive wounds. Even if someone did (Mel), would they even be allowed to heal him without being attacked by Bowen Marsh and the other stewards "for the Watch"?

Now this doesn't mean I don't think he'll be revived at some point by Mel, but I do believe he's dead for the time being and he'll stay that way for a good chunk of tWoW while he lives within Ghost's skin.

[The Human Abstract]

I never got the idea that Jon's final chapter was much of a cliffhanger. The fact that so many NW members openly attacked their LC led me to believe they wouldn't just leave him unconcious in the snow and say "good enough". I figure they'd stab him until they were positive that he was well and truly dead, cause if they botched it and Jon turned out to be alive they'd be in some seriously deep shit when he wakes up.

Yeah. I mostly agree. But the only reason it may be construed as such is that the scene ends so abruptly. We have no idea whether or not there are other forces ready to swoop in and save the day or what have you. Yes, from what we *see* he is surrounded by mutineers and probably already has very serious wounds. However, having read Martin quite a bit, there's always a question.