[ADwD Spoilers] Sorcery in Last Jon Chapter?

[bradfish]

How I see it . . .

I was shocked when Jon got taken down Julius Caesar style, but also realized GRRM had been building up to it through all of Jon's chapters.

I wasn't too surprised when Jon said he was leaving the wall. Everyone's got their breaking point, and GRRM's major characters all develop and change.

The smoking wound, Marsh's salty tears, and a literally bleeding star definitely fits the AA prophecy. It's probably a red herring, but I don't think GRRM put a star on some dude's chest and then waved his bloody corpse around in the air on accident.

I think the purpose of Borroq is to interact with Ghost during Jon's death/convalescence. I don't know if he will attack or aid Ghost, but he will immediately realize his increased importance.

[coppertongue]

That's a good call on Borroq, bradfish.

[Theo1]

Not sure it is sorcery. When he drinks with his men in his quaters Marsh does not drink the wine while Jon and others do. Marsh is sitting with three others at the shieldhall oratory (the four knives), and it is not clear that the fourth knife ever struck Jon (the 4th could have been the 4th conspirator - who was stopped by someone). So, no sorcery necessary to account for his inability to grip and pull the sword.

[variance]

The smoking wound, Marsh's salty tears, and a literally bleeding star definitely fits the AA prophecy. It's probably a red herring, but I don't think GRRM put a star on some dude's chest and then waved his bloody corpse around in the air on accident.

I don't think it was a red herring at all. Mel looked into the fires and asked to see AA, and it showed Jon. Jon also had a dream of him wielding a fiery red sword.

[Riverrun]

I think he couldn't draw longclaw because of his burned hand. In all the other books he opens and closes and clenches and exercises his fist rather often, but in this he mentioned his hand a lot less, maybe he had become forgetful and it cost him?

[friendofbran]

Reading these forums has pointed out so many things that I've missed throughout the books that I went back and restarted the series from the beginning. Right there in the prologue of the first book I found something that I find very interesting in light of GRRM's description of the attack on Jon and the subsequent discussion here. Regarding the following description during Jon's attack:

In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

There's been a lot of discussion of this specific choice of words in this thread. As I read the prologue, I noticed the following passage:

Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold,and the droplets seemed as red as fire where they touched the snow.

This could be a coincidence or simply that GRRM decided to describe a similar wound differently this time around, but it is interesting nonetheless.

[Greg B]

The droplets seemed as red as fire??? Melisandre! Sorcery!!!

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I think there may have been some sorcery at work in Jon's stabbing. It seems to me that Marsh and Wick may not have attacked Jon entirely of their own volition. Here's the ending of the last Jon chapter, with the things I found strange in bold.

I don't know what to make of it, or if to make anything of it at all, but those four things -- Wick's not-me, Jon's stiff and clumsy fingers, Bowen's tears, and the smoking wound -- all seem strange to me. Is the Old Pomegranate the type to cry as he stabs his Lord Commander? Were Jon's fingers just cold? (And then did they get warm enough for him to pull out the dagger that was in his belly?) Why was Wick not-meing when he had slashed at Jon in the yard in broad daylight for all to see? And what does it mean that the wound was smoking?

I suspect Borroq and some abominable human skin-changing, but I don't see how the smoking wound fits into that.

What think ye?

Interesting points to say the least. I think all of them can be explained away, but there is one very valid point you bring up, and that's the "smoking" wound. Martin's a good writer, if he meant steam from the cold, he'd have said "steaming", but "smoking" is deliberately evocative of fire, no doubt about it now that you mention it. Which makes me think Mel.

The hands not working is your second best here I think, because they work to pull the dagger out. Maybe the initial shock of the first attack messed his hands up? The only reason I try to explain this away is I am guessing if there is sorcery involved it is for his benefit as Mel seems to like him.

Bowen crying I really think he felt a lot of guilt betraying the night's watch Lord Commander.

So if there is sorcery, the "smoking" wound may be magic, but maybe it is some kind of magic ward that will save end up saving him. The word "smoking" is not so clear as "steaming". It is possible Martin is trying to find a different word to use than "steaming wound" to avoid repetition, but well...haha, we all know he doesn't avoid repetition. EVER.

Interesting post.

[irishtemper]

Reading these forums has pointed out so many things that I've missed throughout the books that I went back and restarted the series from the beginning. Right there in the prologue of the first book I found something that I find very interesting in light of GRRM's description of the attack on Jon and the subsequent discussion here. Regarding the following description during Jon's attack:

There's been a lot of discussion of this specific choice of words in this thread. As I read the prologue, I noticed the following passage:

This could be a coincidence or simply that GRRM decided to describe a similar wound differently this time around, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Lol I signed up for this website last night at like 2AM so I could post this exact same thing...I just started re-reading the books and noticed that from the prologue and was going to post it in this thread but my account hadn't been approved yet.

The wording in ADWD makes it seem that there is more to it...I have a feeling the tips of that dagger is going to have melted a little and that is what was smoking because Jon has some weird type of Mel sorcery protecting him because she said earlier in the chapter that she was "his only hope."

[Dilshan Muthalib]

not sure if this theory has been put forward yet. Mel has the sorcery to make some one look like some one else. She has a lot of care for Jon and I think she feels he has more to offer then just commanding the night watch and also see starts to wonder deep down if Jon is AA rather then Stanis. So I wonder if she did a Mance on him, i.e made some one else look like Jon and hid Jon as some one else for the time being.

[Pilz]

It wouldn't be a Jon POV if ti was somebody else.

[G Vico]

not sure if this theory has been put forward yet. Mel has the sorcery to make some one look like some one else. She has a lot of care for Jon and I think she feels he has more to offer then just commanding the night watch and also see starts to wonder deep down if Jon is AA rather then Stanis. So I wonder if she did a Mance on him, i.e made some one else look like Jon and hid Jon as some one else for the time being.

That's Alter-Jon, scenario 8 in the Dear Jon thread:

[friendofbran]

It wouldn't be a Jon POV if ti was somebody else.

+1

I thought about that as well but then the chapter doesn't make sense. Jon definitely got stabbed.

[ViennaGirl]

I'm not religious, but I looked up John Chapter 13 in the bible, and it's the one where Jesus tells the disciples that one of them will betray him, and that he'll be killed, and that he'll come back. I think that's kind of weird, since the last Jon (Snow) chapter is his 13th of the book.

[rhaze]

The big huge problem with "he wasnt flexing his hand" is the fact that he grabbed a dagger planted into his gut and withdrew it. Explain that away. Before you do, jab a toothpick 2 inches into your stomach and then pull it back out. Tell me how hard it is to do. I know because it has happened to me and my uncle had to get pliers to pull it out it was stuck in so hard.

[G Vico]

The big huge problem with "he wasnt flexing his hand" is the fact that he grabbed a dagger planted into his gut and withdrew it. Explain that away. Before you do, jab a toothpick 2 inches into your stomach and then pull it back out. Tell me how hard it is to do. I know because it has happened to me and my uncle had to get pliers to pull it out it was stuck in so hard.

Cocktail party gone awry?

[The Human Abstract]

The big huge problem with "he wasnt flexing his hand" is the fact that he grabbed a dagger planted into his gut and withdrew it. Explain that away. Before you do, jab a toothpick 2 inches into your stomach and then pull it back out. Tell me how hard it is to do. I know because it has happened to me and my uncle had to get pliers to pull it out it was stuck in so hard.

Ok.

Done.

Yeah, it was pretty hard. I just went in my full-size freezer and did it. The toothpick hole was smoking pretty badly.

[dreamcatcher]

Reading these forums has pointed out so many things that I've missed throughout the books that I went back and restarted the series from the beginning. Right there in the prologue of the first book I found something that I find very interesting in light of GRRM's description of the attack on Jon and the subsequent discussion here. Regarding the following description during Jon's attack:

There's been a lot of discussion of this specific choice of words in this thread. As I read the prologue, I noticed the following passage:

This could be a coincidence or simply that GRRM decided to describe a similar wound differently this time around, but it is interesting nonetheless.

I had wanted to point out that hot liquid in cold doesn't 'smoke', but I'm not a native speaker and I couldn't find the proper word for it, so I thought I was only imagining things and that 'smoke' is a perfect word to describe condensation. Now I see that it isn't and you reminded me of the correct word, thank you :)

So we have two smoking wounds (Drogon, Jon) and one steaming (Royce). I think it's intentional. George is too clever to just use whatever springs to mind in the ending of the most poignant chapter in the novel.

I'm not religious, but I looked up John Chapter 13 in the bible, and it's the one where Jesus tells the disciples that one of them will betray him, and that he'll be killed, and that he'll come back. I think that's kind of weird, since the last Jon (Snow) chapter is his 13th of the book.

Interesting! (Call me gullible, but I think this is intentional as well.)

[ForgottenFace]

I think that Jon's stiffed hands could be the cold + having his hand not completely cured since he got burned + suprise from the attack.

Remember that since he got burned Maester Aemon told him to open and close the hand several times throughout the day, so it can regains some strength and keep the stiffness away. He often does it when he is unconfortable or angry.

The stewards could have tempered with Longclaw too, though.

[Roose Bolton's Onesie]

Any guesses as to where Mel may have ran off to after Jon's speech in the Shieldhall? There were queen's men who left with her, presumably with the intention of delivering the news to Selyse, though Mel wouldn't need to go with them. I'd guess she intended to consult her fires, although whether she would have gotten back to her quarters before Wun Wun went apeshit I've no idea. :dunno: