Jaime

[albcann]

Perhaps my favorite part of ASoIaF so far is the confrontation between Catelyn and Jaime in the Riverrun prison. Jaime says, "I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act." Has it yet been revealed through ASOS what that "kindness I never did" was? Maybe it had to do with Tysha and Tyrion but have not been able to figure it out and I lent out my AGOT so I can't research the conversation between Tyrion and Bronn where the story of Tysha was first revealed. I'd love an answer to this question if it was revealed somewhere in the first three books, and I missed it.

Thanks,

Albcann

[Tammy]

Perhaps my favorite part of ASoIaF so far is the confrontation between Catelyn and Jaime in the Riverrun prison. Jaime says, "I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act." Has it yet been revealed through ASOS what that "kindness I never did" was? Maybe it had to do with Tysha and Tyrion but have not been able to figure it out and I lent out my AGOT so I can't research the conversation between Tyrion and Bronn where the story of Tysha was first revealed. I'd love an answer to this question if it was revealed somewhere in the first three books, and I missed it.

Thanks,

Albcann

I believe the explanation is in either the last Jaime chapter or the last Tyrion chapter of SOS.

[Reyne]

Last Tyrion chapter, indeed. You find out in ASOS.

[Lucreel]

You know, one thing I do find a bit frustrating about ASoIAF is that it is so long. . . I'm beginning to forget things from earlier books. Since GRRM will sometimes have characters talk or think about something not revealed yet, I often find myself confused as to whether they're talking about someone/something I should remember from an earlier book, or something he just hasn't revealed yet.

I had one such moment the other night. I had taken about a 3 week 'break' from reading the series (mostly due to things I needed to take care of in life - I moved from one apartment to another and that made my life chaos). Anyhow, I had just started reading AFFC, and the character Podrick Payne was mentioned, and at first, for the life of me, even though the name was familiar, I couldn't remember who it was. Luckily, GRRM explained it a few pages later, which reminded me who the character was.

Still, in such a huge story, I have a hard time remembering everything.

[albcann]

Unfortunately, despite the clues I've gotten from the replies to my post, apparently I am still too dense to see it. I don't have access to AGoT to reread the dialogue between Bronn and Tyrion describing the story of Tysha. Before the revelation by Jaime in ASoS about Tysha, didn't Tyrion believe that Jaime was an accomplice to the marriage set up arranged by Tywin? It is bugging me that I can't figure this out.

[Reyne]

Unfortunately, despite the clues I've gotten from the replies to my post, apparently I am still too dense to see it. I don't have access to AGoT to reread the dialogue between Bronn and Tyrion describing the story of Tysha. Before the revelation by Jaime in ASoS about Tysha, didn't Tyrion believe that Jaime was an accomplice to the marriage set up arranged by Tywin? It is bugging me that I can't figure this out.

From memory:

Tyrion previously believed that Tysha was a prostitute Jaime had hired for him (and Jaime had been the one to organize it, with Tywin's tacit approval assumed.) According to Tywin's story, they hadn't actually expected for him to marry her, and the gangrape/etc. was 'punishment' for doing so.

In actuality, Tysha was indeed a crofter's daughter, and after finding out, Tywin concocted the story above, with Jaime tacitly forced to go along with it.

[The late lady stark]

You know, one thing I do find a bit frustrating about ASoIAF is that it is so long. . . I'm beginning to forget things from earlier books. Since GRRM will sometimes have characters talk or think about something not revealed yet, I often find myself confused as to whether they're talking about someone/something I should remember from an earlier book, or something he just hasn't revealed yet.

I had one such moment the other night. I had taken about a 3 week 'break' from reading the series (mostly due to things I needed to take care of in life - I moved from one apartment to another and that made my life chaos). Anyhow, I had just started reading AFFC, and the character Podrick Payne was mentioned, and at first, for the life of me, even though the name was familiar, I couldn't remember who it was. Luckily, GRRM explained it a few pages later, which reminded me who the character was.

Still, in such a huge story, I have a hard time remembering everything.

Agreed. I always get the outlaw groups mixed up with brings no end of confusion.

[jsowers]

Agreed. I always get the outlaw groups mixed up with brings no end of confusion.

Oh dear, yes.

[Hear Me Roar!]

Call me dense but

I still don't understand what the "Kindness I never did" was. Tyrion loves him b/c he thinks he hired the whore for him but in actuality that wasn't the case? I dont recall Tyrion loving Jaime b/c he thought Jaime hired a whore for him ...

[The burned dog]

I think it is a bit strange as well, that he would love him for this then hate him to his guts when he finds out his father coerced him into lying about it. As for me, I would have been pissed that he deceived me into marrying a whore, and than maybe forgiven him when I found out this was only our fathers lies. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[Tammy]

Call me dense but

I still don't understand what the "Kindness I never did" was. Tyrion loves him b/c he thinks he hired the whore for him but in actuality that wasn't the case? I dont recall Tyrion loving Jaime b/c he thought Jaime hired a whore for him ...

I think that the whole act was a token of how much Jaime loved his brother as far as Tyrion was concerned. That Jaime, knowing that his dwarf little brother who didn't have a chance at ever having a real woman, devised this scheme where Tyrion could be part hero to some innocent girl and not feel like the monster everyone else considered him to be. So, in retrospect Tyrion thinks about how the whore was acting just like a whore would, but he views it as Jaime trying to protect his little brother and give him the love that he'd likely not get elsewhere.

[Silmarien]

Perhaps my favorite part of ASoIaF so far is the confrontation between Catelyn and Jaime in the Riverrun prison. Jaime says, "I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act." Has it yet been revealed through ASOS what that "kindness I never did" was? Maybe it had to do with Tysha and Tyrion but have not been able to figure it out and I lent out my AGOT so I can't research the conversation between Tyrion and Bronn where the story of Tysha was first revealed. I'd love an answer to this question if it was revealed somewhere in the first three books, and I missed it.

Thanks,

Albcann

The kindness he never did I think refers to killing Mad King Aerys II, and the gratitude there would be Robert Baratheon's. It certainly DOES NOT refer to Tysha.

Reviled by his finest act is also killing the Mad King. Aerys II was planning on blowing King's Landing into cinders with his hordes of hidden Wildfire made by his right hand man and the Hand, a Pyromancer. So, Jaime killing Aerys saved the people of King's Landing from being burned to ashes, even if it did technically break his vow to defend his King.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

The kindness he never did I think refers to killing Mad King Aerys II, and the gratitude there would be Robert Baratheon's. It certainly DOES NOT refer to Tysha.

Reviled by his finest act is also killing the Mad King. Aerys II was planning on blowing King's Landing into cinders with his hordes of hidden Wildfire made by his right hand man and the Hand, a Pyromancer. So, Jaime killing Aerys saved the people of King's Landing from being burned to ashes, even if it did technically break his vow to defend his King.

A kindness he never did can't be an act he actually did.

[HaraktheHirsute]

You know, one thing I do find a bit frustrating about ASoIAF is that it is so long. . .

I agree. But we go through all the setup, the lengthy description of clothing and food, the not uncommon excessive and repetitive lines to get to the meat that lies beneath it all.

[Cydal]

The kindness he never did I think refers to killing Mad King Aerys II, and the gratitude there would be Robert Baratheon's. It certainly DOES NOT refer to Tysha.

Reviled by his finest act is also killing the Mad King. Aerys II was planning on blowing King's Landing into cinders with his hordes of hidden Wildfire made by his right hand man and the Hand, a Pyromancer. So, Jaime killing Aerys saved the people of King's Landing from being burned to ashes, even if it did technically break his vow to defend his King.

Killing Aerys is "His finest act that he's reviled for". As far as Tyrion was concerned, his brother went through the whole Mummer's farce because he loved him and knew no woman would love him being a dwarf that he is. He appreciated the thought behind it and felt like though Jaime orchestrated the whole thing, Jaime didn't expect him(Tyrion) to actually go and marry her.

[Ile de Le Fleur]

I can't help but disagree with the consensus here, although sadly I can't provide any evidence to support this.

I don't believe the Tysha story has anything to do with Jamie's "kindness he never did," that doesn't make sense. He was ashamed (as revealed in the end of the book) that he had to lie to Tyrion about Tysha being a whore.

I'm almost certain that "reviled for my greatest act" refers to killing Aerys. I'm trying to come up with an explanation for "loved for one kindness I never did," but no part of the Tyrion/Tysha saga reveals any "kindness" on Jaime's part.

Nevermind: I guess I was wrong, if you read the chapter summery for this scene (http://towerofthehand.com/books/102/056/index.html) the footnotes explain that, apparently, the kindness he never did was hiring a whore for Tyrion... I still don't think it makes sense.

[Cydal]

I can't help but disagree with the consensus here, although sadly I can't provide any evidence to support this.

I don't believe the Tysha story has anything to do with Jamie's "kindness he never did," that doesn't make sense. He was ashamed (as revealed in the end of the book) that he had to lie to Tyrion about Tysha being a whore.

I'm almost certain that "reviled for my greatest act" refers to killing Aerys. I'm trying to come up with an explanation for "loved for one kindness I never did," but no part of the Tyrion/Tysha saga reveals any "kindness" on Jaime's part.

Nevermind: I guess I was wrong, if you read the chapter summery for this scene (http://towerofthehan.../056/index.html) the footnotes explain that, apparently, the kindness he never did was hiring a whore for Tyrion... I still don't think it makes sense.

Think of it this way.... Imagine you had a brother who was also an hideous dwarf who nobody would ever wanna sleep with except for money. And you wish for him to have sex for the first time, now if you had the choice( and ofcourse the means) would you just hire a whore to sleep with him or have someone pretend they cared for him and would sleep with him for him as he is? Now if you went with the latter, would it be out of love for your brother or not?? The reason you don't get it is that you keep looking at the end result which was disastrous(bcos maybe Jaime didn't actually expect Tyrion to go and marry her) but what you shld look at is the perceived intention behind the gesture.

[Blangadanger]

I just finished the book as well. The whole sequence where Jaime confesses (why would he do that anyway?) that she actually wasn't a whore confused me. So I'm trying to work out in my mind the complexities of this story.

Tyrion believes she was just a poor girl who loved him immensely, and thus out of pure love, he married her immediately.

Tywin discovering this from Jaime believes that it's terrible that Tyrion got married to someone he can't use for power, so he has Jaime concoct a story about how he hired her just for Tyrion's pleasure.

Tyrion watches in horror as Tywin has him and his new love punished outright by the mass rape.

Tyrion somehow forgives Jaime because he thinks he was just trying to be kind by hiring him a whore.

Jaime feels ever guilty about it, because he knows the girl was innocent in the first place.

Tyrion learns from Jaime that his "one kindness" he performed for Tyrion actually never happened.

Therefore Tyrion is furious, because Tysha's love for him was actually not false, and this event, which has shaped most of his thoughts on women, whores, and love, was an utter lie.

Tyrion slaps Jaime, because he believes it cruel, and kills his father, who's also taken Tyrion's current love for his own, outright for orchestrating all of it.

Is that the way others perceive what happened?

I think Tyrion's thoughts on the world, especially his almost contemptuous mistrust of any and every person, is tied to this lie that Jaime orchestrated. I think he even says at one point that the only person he does trust is Jaime, and so for Jaime to tell him that the awful event wasn't actually true just breaks Tyrion immediately. He no longer values wit and rationality and just goes straight for the throat literally. Shae, even if she was somehow innocent, could never be viewed as innocent in Tyrion's eyes once he spies her in the tower, and I think he clearly means to kill his father as soon as he hears the words out of Jaime's mouth.

Tyrion also struggles with his self-identity most of his life stemming from the event. He thought he found someone who loved him for what he was, and yet he is led to believe that no one could love him without some money or power thrown in. I think this explains why he absolutely refuses to complete his marriage to Sansa, because he views her as truly innocent and never capable of being satisfied by him. This is compounded by his love for Shae, who he believes loves him for more than money (perhaps like Tysha), only to learn that she was truly a whore in the end.

Exciting stuff to read and analyze, albeit a little confusing.

[zmflavius]

I can't help but disagree with the consensus here, although sadly I can't provide any evidence to support this. I don't believe the Tysha story has anything to do with Jamie's "kindness he never did," that doesn't make sense. He was ashamed (as revealed in the end of the book) that he had to lie to Tyrion about Tysha being a whore. I'm almost certain that "reviled for my greatest act" refers to killing Aerys. I'm trying to come up with an explanation for "loved for one kindness I never did," but no part of the Tyrion/Tysha saga reveals any "kindness" on Jaime's part. Nevermind: I guess I was wrong, if you read the chapter summery for this scene (http://towerofthehand.com/books/102/056/index.html) the footnotes explain that, apparently, the kindness he never did was hiring a whore for Tyrion... I still don't think it makes sense.

You think that it's not a kindness he never did because what he actually did was not a kindness? This is precisely why it's a kindness he never did.