Littlefingers mind...

[The Fading Griffin]

dunno if im supposed to post this on a re-read thread, but there's spoilers in this? haha. read on.

so, im re-reading game of thrones, instantly after finishing the first 5. and i was reading the catelyn chapter where she captures tyrion at the inn. and i was thinking of how well done that was, naming bannerman, having them declare fealty essentially, and then naming tyrions supposed crime. and then again when she said they would be taking the kingsroad to winterfell, and then in tyrions chapter, after they let him see again, he realized she lied and its just a great scene. well, where im going with this is, i think that catelyn stark, is an entirely different person than catelyn tully. i believe the north, and ned, and what happened with brandon, and all that, i feel that catelyn changed, but i think that littlefinger never succumbed to that. he never grasped it. and i think that littlefinger, being the scheming little guy he is, wanted ned stark dead, just as he wanted brandon dead when he challenged him to a duel. but this time he used his wits, and combined with varys to start the lion and the wolf at war, and littlefinger would also have liked ned dead as well.

but thats where things change for him, because of the red wedding. with catelyn gone, littlefingers game looks to be at an end...until you realize he's the one who plotted to free sansa. i feel like he replaced catelyn tully with sansa and thats why he's "helping her" or however. and i feel like someday she may well realize all that he's done against her family, for catelyn tully, that she will avenge him somehow, no matter what he teaches her, or anything.

i just think littlefinger is a bastard, to be honest.

[The Fading Griffin]

hey guys...

[The Fading Griffin]

this is my first post...someone reply haha.

[Smy]

Well, I am rereading the books too in this period of time, and I was struck by Lilttlefinger this time. I said this time because the first time I read A game of thrones I didn't notice him at all, my attention was taken by the game of thrones itself, he was just a mischievous charachter like others. But then I was like "what is he trying to do?" Exactly, why does he take the opportunity of blaming on Tyrion for the attempt on Bran's life? Why does he betray Ned? Well, your post is making it clearer. Still I can't understand how could he see so far when he blamed Tyrion though...

Anyway, I thought him just a mischievous charachter, now I see him evil. :D And I am reconsidering Varys... I am starting to think he is the only one in the Red keep who cares for the kingdom in itself...

Oh, and I had noticed since the first reading that he had substituted Catelyn with Sansa, just because they're so alike. He's so shallow... and dangerous, I think...

[The Fading Griffin]

varys is another tricky one. there's been a couple scenes throughout that make him seem like he actually does serve the realm. and a couple where he is as shady as littlefinger.

GRRM is a genius...

[Wembeley]

It's a good take on that, I think he is a little jerk for telling everyone that he had sex with both sisters although I don't think it actually happened with Catelyn and who knows with Lysa but it's still hard to figure out why he said it was Tyrion's knife and not Jamie's or Joffrey's..

[Hugor Hill]

Spoilers included, but you said re-read...

I think the motivation for blaming Tyrion was simple, 1) it puts the Starks and Lannisters at odds, and 2) he wasn't around King's Landing at the time to defend himself. Catelyn finding him at the inn was unexpected and forced things to escalate much more quickly than he probably anticipated, but it worked out for him. As far as the maidenheads, Cat - no, Lysa - yes, he knocked her up. It's fairly obvious he always had a thing for Cat and she wasn't interested. Sansa is a prettier, younger version of her mom, and he's been a creeper towards her since she arrived in Kings Landing. I don't know if I should be mixing the two, but there are a couple scenes in the HBO series that subtly demonstrate this as well (especially rewatching after reading the books).

The guy is as sinister as he is ambitious. Is his endgame to lie, cheat, murder, and marry his way onto the Iron Throne? I don't see how he could do it, but I didn't see him being behind Sansa's escape either.

[Starblayde]

Is his endgame to lie, cheat, murder, and marry his way onto the Iron Throne?

He'd be Lord of Winterfell via marriage to Sansa, Lord of the Vale from his marriage to Lysa, already installed as Lord of Harrenhal, as well as being Lord of that little shack on the Fingers...

All he needs now is Casterly Rock, Highgarden, Storm's End and Dorne and Littlefinger wins the Game of Thrones by default! Go Petyr!!!

[violet storm]

LIttlefinger is a phenomenal character as nobody, but maybe Tyrion, sees him for what he is. He quetly collected support of many lands and is waiting, while other houses are just killing each other. His play will be a crucial one at the end.

Not sure if Sansa will be avenging anybody at the end... She lost her wolf, figuratively and literaly, and becoming more like Petyr, lss like Stark...

[violet storm]

It's a good take on that, I think he is a little jerk for telling everyone that he had sex with both sisters although I don't think it actually happened with Catelyn and who knows with Lysa but it's still hard to figure out why he said it was Tyrion's knife and not Jamie's or Joffrey's..

Of course he slept with Lysa - why would she had to be married off to Jon Arryn in such a haste and ultimately the first child was not born (she was pregnant with Cat at the same time)

[The Fading Griffin]

Spoilers included, but you said re-read...

I think the motivation for blaming Tyrion was simple, 1) it puts the Starks and Lannisters at odds, and 2) he wasn't around King's Landing at the time to defend himself. Catelyn finding him at the inn was unexpected and forced things to escalate much more quickly than he probably anticipated, but it worked out for him. As far as the maidenheads, Cat - no, Lysa - yes, he knocked her up. It's fairly obvious he always had a thing for Cat and she wasn't interested. Sansa is a prettier, younger version of her mom, and he's been a creeper towards her since she arrived in Kings Landing. I don't know if I should be mixing the two, but there are a couple scenes in the HBO series that subtly demonstrate this as well (especially rewatching after reading the books).

The guy is as sinister as he is ambitious. Is his endgame to lie, cheat, murder, and marry his way onto the Iron Throne? I don't see how he could do it, but I didn't see him being behind Sansa's escape either.

i agree with your take on littlefingers motivation behind blaming tyrion. tyrion remaining in the north must have been the main reason for littlefingers ploy.

its hard to figure out exactly what his endgame is, but so far he's done all he can do to achieve it.

i'm curious to see how all his schemes pan out.

[little_horn]

The only person Littlefinger has ever loved is Littlefinger.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

The only person Littlefinger has ever loved is Littlefinger.

Not true... he really loved Cat. Sad how things turned out for him being that the war he planned out to get her resulted in her death.

I think Littlefinger schemes to be a King/Lord maker. There is allot of money and power in being the one who pulls the strings like he has been throughout the entire series.

Littlefinger, Varys/Mopatis, and Olenna have all been competing for who will pull the strings in the South as Bolton and Manderly have been competing for dominance in the North.

I wouldn't say that Littlefinger is evil. He just has a talent for playing the game of thrones. In the game, one is either a player or a piece.

[The Fading Griffin]

yay my first post ended up getting more than a couple comments :) haha sweet.

[MaesterWinters]

On re-reading it seems like LF may be the primary mover for the whole conflict. He had Lysa poison Jon to start the story in motion, and the manipulated the situation in every way to fan the flames of conflict. It appears he was acting somewhat alone b/c in the conversation Arya overhears below the Red Keep, they mention that they're being forced to move several years ahead of schedule (concerning a return of the Targaryens, I believe).

His motives are completely unknown. He seems to have some desire to hide his family sigil, the titan of Braavos, so perhaps there's some connection there. But I wish the story had more to offer on this topic.

His creepiness/perv-itide level has definitely increased as his obsession w/ Sansa/Cat has come out.

[Candor]

Personally, I think Petyr has modified his strategy as time has gone on. I think in the beginning his goal was to become Head-String-Puller, and I don't think he was going anywhere with the Sansa/Catelyn thing, not truly.

The way I saw the climate at the first novel was this: Littlefinger is a head person at court. He's priviledged to see a lot of things. What he sees is a king that spends his time on debauchery and listens to no one if he doesn't care for the option himself (stubborn). He sees Robert's potential heirs lined up, starting with that utter disaster named Joffrey. He sees the obvious control the Lannister faction has over the court by their marriage into it, and obviously, he can't be a string-puller with lesser influence than them. In effect, as things are at the beginning, he's not in a prime position.

Then you have Jon Arryn, who is the King's advisor. A wise, honorable man by all accounts. This is also not working in Littlefinger's favor because that wiseness and honor could be a stumbling block. Jon Arryn also has the misfortune to know of the royal children's actual parentage, which makes him a target for the head-faction in charge. Littlefinger is a smart man and can see if he wants to get to Point A, then he has to take out this obstacle first, then the next, and he can't do it in a different order. Jon Arryn is easier to get rid of, buys him time and favor from the Lannisters (not really because we're not sure they even know about this plot - but having Jon gon doesn't make them look at Petyr and go wtf why are you not on our side? They're just happy Jon is gone and don't even think about LF). End of.

Then there's merry Lysa, who obviously wants Petyr in or around......well, let's not go on. She's not the ruler of the Vale by blood, but she's the mother of the heir, which puts her in a position to claim power until Sweetrobin grows up. The person at her side, especially given her emotional and not very leadership-quality nature, can be the defacto ruler. And once you're in power for a while, you don't necessarily need that sick heirling boy, so, buh-bye little Robert.

Petyr knows he can get to be Lord of the Vale if Jon's gone just by virtue of wedding and bedding Lysa. And he knows she's crazy enough about him that she's probably not going to be in a rush to get remarried to someone who is not him. This works for LF. As Lord of the Vale, his influence goes up considerably. There's another reason why Jon Arryn should be dealt with.

Once Jon's gone, he just has to wait and plot to get rid of Obstacle #2 - the Lannisters.

Only who should move into King's Landing but our sometimes hero, Ned Stark! Someone who isn't exactly buddy-buddy with the Lannisters, and that feeling is mutual. Haha, and even better, there's enough evidence that could form the story that the Lannisters tried to kill Ned's little son. That is something that can't be glossed over with a peace treaty, at least not on the Stark's side of things. And LF sees it. And you can bet he's going to use it.

He's on his way to getting rid of his rivals for influence.

Few more books come and go, things are going belly-up at court and in the realm, and new avenues for grabbing power have to be considered. Strategy modifying. Nothing is going to get done quick, so LF has to think a few steps ahead. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe he was in on the whole Tyrell plot to poison Joff, right? So if that's that, he knows that because Tywin decided Sansa and Tyrion were getting hitched, that as a married pair, she's likely to be thrown in jail as well. Possibly executed. That's a problem.

Because unlike little Lannister kids, there's actually a chance LF can use Sansa for his own schemes. She finds him somewhat of a friend/ally, is willing to listen to him, and she also is the most likely heir to the very important castle and lands (as Petyr while knowing a heck of a lot more than he should legitimately know - thinks Robb, Bran, Rickon, and Arya are buh-bye), and a nice, pretty maiden that can be used for marriage-alliance where it proves necessary. It doesn't hurt that she reminds him of his lost love, but I see that as more of a side thought at that moment, not the reason for the action. LF at this point in time seems to me still more strategy-minded than creepin' like PedoBear.

They sneak out to the Vale and lock themselves up there with Lysa, Sweetrobin, and the smallfolk. Lysa is expendable, she's talking too much, Petyr isn't attracted, and she tries to flat out kill Sansa. That's not working for LF. Goodbye, Lysa. We knew you well.

I think the time spent in the Eyrie is where it starts to become more about Sansa and his growing want of her as a (I would say woman, but LF, she is not legal! Hands off! :chuckle:). I also think his propensity for strategy starts to dull a little because he is becoming so affected about the love/lust/whatever you want to call it situation. I think ultimately things are going to go down the drain, sooner rather than later for Petyr, and the joke will be that he didn't see it coming. Or Sansa is the author of it. I'm not sure, but I'll advocate for either outcome, because to me it just seems like it's on the way to happening.

[MaesterWinters]

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

What bothers me is that it's hard for me to say that LF would have known with enough certainty that he would come out ahead in the end. As it turns out events have worked greatly in his favor, but there's no way he could have anticipated it. And I think you can see that he's setting the Vale up to profit as all the other powers mutually destroy themselves, but a weakened seven kingdoms might not be able to survive winter, offshores invaders, or the unknown and unexpected Others. None of which he may care about, but I would expect him to be a bit more grounded concerning so much uncertainty.

So I sort of wonder if he may not be affiliated with another group with an interest in seeing Westeros weakened by internal strife. Sounds a little strange and heaven knows there are enough plots and interests in the books already, but I find it hard to accept that he would take on such a great responsibility completely of his own initiative.

And just to be clear, thirteen on thirty+ may have been more acceptable by the standards of Westeros, but LFs not interested in the emotional side of it, he's specifically about the deflowering because of his failure in that endeavor with Cat (which is why he has no concern about marrying her off later), and that's before you get into the mental undressing and uncalled for touching before Sansa had come of age.

[Warlock Vetolgar]

Well, Littlefinger is the series' bonafide champion chessmaster, so even if it seems unlikely he could have foressen everything that happened, we can always abide by the rule of cool and say he's as lucky as he is skillful and leave it at that. We won't know for sure until the story comes to an end, anyway.

[Vapor]

I think Littlefinger is playing the Game perfectly. I haven't had a re-read since finishing the 5th yet, though I'd read 1-4 twice beforehand.

He sets everything up perfectly, they even make mention of him throughout the latter books with both Cersei and Kevan wishing Littlefinger was still around in Kings Landing for the way he can pluck coin from thin air, this makes him seem less likely to all of them that he's really playing the Game, everyone but Tyrion believes he's only a small time player, and no one is taking him seriously. Especially in the books themselves, GRRM was a Genius just to let Littlefingers arc seem like it was going nowhere in particular throughout the first 3 books, even when he betrayed Ned, I myself the first time thought that was just out of his love for Catelyn, now I think it was all part of his plan.

I do wonder how much he knew of the Varys/Targaryen friendship though, he mentions (albeit I only remember this from the TV Show, can't seem to recall it being mentioned in the books) that he saw Varys with Illyrio, which makes me wonder how much of that he knows about. I'm sure we will find out soon but the way he's playing it seems perfect. I wonder if Varys even knows what Littlefinger is up to, personally think Littlefinger knows more than Varys wants him to, which should give Littlefinger the upper hand between those two.

I think Littlefinger has a knack of befriending people too, he can make people trust him even if they really shouldn't. This could prove vital over the final two books. I can't wait to see how it all turns out!

[Candor]



Thanks for the thoughtful response.

1. What bothers me is that it's hard for me to say that LF would have known with enough certainty that he would come out ahead in the end. As it turns out events have worked greatly in his favor, but there's no way he could have anticipated it. And I think you can see that he's setting the Vale up to profit as all the other powers mutually destroy themselves, but a weakened seven kingdoms might not be able to survive winter, offshores invaders, or the unknown and unexpected Others. None of which he may care about, but I would expect him to be a bit more grounded concerning so much uncertainty.

2. So I sort of wonder if he may not be affiliated with another group with an interest in seeing Westeros weakened by internal strife. Sounds a little strange and heaven knows there are enough plots and interests in the books already, but I find it hard to accept that he would take on such a great responsibility completely of his own initiative.

3. And just to be clear, thirteen on thirty+ may have been more acceptable by the standards of Westeros, but LFs not interested in the emotional side of it, he's specifically about the deflowering because of his failure in that endeavor with Cat (which is why he has no concern about marrying her off later), and that's before you get into the mental undressing and uncalled for touching before Sansa had come of age.

You're certainly welcome. LF is an intriguing topic, much fun to puzzle over, so I had a go at it. Now, response. (I broke yours up into 3 parts so I could reply to each without it being confusing).

1. I see LF as being the sort of person to consider all outcomes, and to consider them, and keep the ones that work at present, and set aside the others as thoughts for later if he has to change up his strategy. In fact I think he’s prepared several “escape routes” or “next turns” for himself in advance, not even knowing which of them would become the most likely. I didn’t write it correctly, but I was not trying to say that he forsaw his exploitation of the Vale right from the beginning. My view on it was that he knew obvs that Lysa was in the Vale, and considering he was in on Jon Arryn’s demise, that she would be widowed, and the sort of regent for her son. It would have been a side thought in Petyr’s mind. It might not be a situation he could break into in GoT era, but he knew that perhaps down the road, that might be plausible for him if the fates gave him that opportunity.

2. It’s certainly possible that he is affiliated with outside groups, as Varys has clearly gone down that road. I would say there’s a midding chance of that. I am more inclined to believe he acts on his own whims, however, just by his personality. I think it’s precisely the magnitude of what he’s trying to take on that is going to be his downfall. He’ll have his fingers in too many pies. Juggling too many balls; one has to fall and then all come down. House of cards. All those metaphors and more is what I forsee for him.

I don't think in the novels it was explicitly stated he knew about the Varys-Illyrio meeting. I'm pretty sure that's just tv canon (it's harder to do nuances on screen so they have to make some things more obvious)

3. I’m aware, hehe, but there is still a definite air of creepiness to him, probably just because it’s unwanted attention on Sansa’s end.

Well, Littlefinger is the series' bonafide champion chessmaster, so even if it seems unlikely he could have foressen everything that happened, we can always abide by the rule of cool and say he's as lucky as he is skillful and leave it at that. We won't know for sure until the story comes to an end, anyway.

Very true. Hehe. I'm quite interested in seeing how it all ends up, if it's A: anything like I thought, B: or if he goes on to more and more success, or C: if his downfall just comes later than I anticipated.

I think Littlefinger is playing the Game perfectly. I haven't had a re-read since finishing the 5th yet, though I'd read 1-4 twice beforehand.

He sets everything up perfectly, they even make mention of him throughout the latter books with both Cersei and Kevan wishing Littlefinger was still around in Kings Landing for the way he can pluck coin from thin air, this makes him seem less likely to all of them that he's really playing the Game, everyone but Tyrion believes he's only a small time player, and no one is taking him seriously. Especially in the books themselves, GRRM was a Genius just to let Littlefingers arc seem like it was going nowhere in particular throughout the first 3 books, even when he betrayed Ned, I myself the first time thought that was just out of his love for Catelyn, now I think it was all part of his plan.

I do wonder how much he knew of the Varys/Targaryen friendship though, he mentions (albeit I only remember this from the TV Show, can't seem to recall it being mentioned in the books) that he saw Varys with Illyrio, which makes me wonder how much of that he knows about. I'm sure we will find out soon but the way he's playing it seems perfect. I wonder if Varys even knows what Littlefinger is up to, personally think Littlefinger knows more than Varys wants him to, which should give Littlefinger the upper hand between those two.

I think Littlefinger has a knack of befriending people too, he can make people trust him even if they really shouldn't. This could prove vital over the final two books. I can't wait to see how it all turns out!

I'm doing a re-read of GoT currently, and I notice so many more places with little nuggets of info about LF that I wish I had taken notice of the last time I read. George RR did do an amazing job with LF's arc, I agree. It was so on the down-low, and yet it was also always right there in front of our faces to some extent. And now like a sleeping giant, he's woken up and taken charge, yet STILL maintained some immunity as people (mostly KL folk) STILL don't worry their little heads over the likes of him.

I'm thinking in WoW, as it's been confirmed we're getting POV's from Sansa (and thus seeing what's going on, Vale-side) that something is going to go belly up either:

A) with the plan to marry Sansa to Harry The Heir

B) Someone on the outside is going to realize "Oh wait, if you think about it, things have been suspiciously quiet and peaceful over in the Vale. Maybe we should go "check on" that."

C) The Vale Lords turn out to not have put all their trust in LF, and plot against him to his downfall.

D) Sansa pulls a turn-and-run.