Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I always assumed that Ned was about to get beat, Howland finished off who he was fighting and came over and speared Dayne,killing him. but i guess if he's in full armor that might not work as good.

[nicmazza87]

hy guys, first post. my two cents:

1)the KGs are dead. What makes characters like dayne so intriguing is that they are absoluts. Dayne is The Fighter, the white bull is Duty and Loyalty. That's what gives the tale of their last stand such power, three of the best facing their doom because of their unwavering loyalty to ideals. It would ruin the perfect image of those knights to face their own death.

Ned on the other hand is highly honorable but also highly human, so i don't think he would be above fighting dirty to save his beloved sister. He would do it and then feel guilty about it for the rest of his life. i think.

2) i've noticed that among fantasy aficionados there is an unusually high % of martial artist, so many will understand what i am about to say. It is EXTREMELY hard to face multiple opponents: i was able to hold off my karate teacher when we sparred 2 on 1 (me and another guy against him), i am fit and young but my technique is nill compared to my master's. So it is not unthinkable for Dayne to lose against multiple opponents (maybe he killed two and was slain by the other two) . Of course martin doesn't look like some one with first hand combat experience so this might be irrelevant.

3) Reed's son has greendreams, Reed was skilled in some form of magic even before he visited the green men, what's so unlikely about him using magic\wargabilities against the best knight ever to save his own life and the one of his BFF?

4)All the talk of jon being R's son seems plausible (and would be soo coool), but jon doesn't show any of the targaryens' traits. Also, why would Ned forbid Cat to name dayne's sister's name if she has no link with jon? Just because it makes him sad to think of someone he loved?

On a side note, i think jon might be azor azhai (maybe i'm saying something obvious here, or something that has already been ruled out)

5) I hadn't thought about dayne's sister being the fake septa living with aegon. Would be nice, but it would spoil the sad and beatiful story of her suicide.

lastly, tiryon and jaime are becoming my favourite narrators, does this make me a bad person?

[Dragonfish]

hy guys, first post.

Welcome to the board, nicmazza.

4)All the talk of jon being R's son seems plausible (and would be soo coool), but jon doesn't show any of the targaryens' traits.

There are actually a number of Targaryens born without Targaryen traits, including Rhaegar's own daughter, Rhaenys. So Jon's Stark-look doesn't discredit the theory that he's Rhaegar's son.

Also, why would Ned forbid Cat to name dayne's sister's name if she has no link with jon? Just because it makes him sad to think of someone he loved?

I always just figured he didn't want people tarnishing Ashara's name.

[Kade Blackwood]

This has been an interesting thread. One think I noted.

That explains why they were there to begin with, but it doesn't explain why they stayed there, after the rest of the royal family was killed and their supposed new king was on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. I mean, what would they have done if Rhaegar died but Aerys was still alive in King's Landing? Just sit and wait there forever? Even if there were no Kingsguard members guarding Aerys? Would they still have stayed if Rhaegar's orders were to guard a wheel of cheese he was particularly fond of? And what if Viserys came back with an army to retake the throne? Would they just stay at the tower until he figured out where they were and ordered them to come back?

The simple fact is, if Viserys was truly their king, then the Kingsguard would have to choose between their oath to follow orders and their oath to guard the King. You're basically saying that they chose to follow the former oath, even though it is canonical that the latter oath is their first and primary duty. I'm sorry, but I don't think this argument holds water.

I'd say the answer to this ultimately lies in the actions of Ser Barriston Selmy.

Barriston Selmy accepted Robert's pardon and served on the KG, however, he knew that Viserys and Dany were alive. With Robert dead and an illegitimate child on the throne, he rethought his duties. He decided that he should really be serving the true king.

That point should be be clarified and it isn't just semantics. The Kingsguard would be expected to serve the King until death (it is clear that this was either on the battlefield or old age, given the shock of Selmy's dismissal). As Jaime tells us as he puts Loras in his place over the knights in the White Book, the youngest knight to wear the White Cloak before Jaime wore it for about an hour before he was killed, yet his king lived. Presumably this was a war against the king, maybe a rebellion. One can assume, therefore, that should an heir to the throne be present and living, then the Kingsguard would be expected to protect him/her. Even in the case of a rebellion. Especially in the case of rebellion. After all, a rebellion only lasts as long as it takes to restore the rightful heir to the throne and the Kingsguard would be expected to make that happen. Months or years, shouldn't matter.

So the duty of the Kingsguard should have always been to whatever Targaryen was alive and in line for the throne which was rightfully his/hers. The 3 White Swords at the Tower of Joy would have been doing just that. Why did they stay there? Why did Selmy seek out Viserys then Dany? Would they have waited there forever? How long is Selmy going to be by Dany's side? In the case of the Dance of Dragons, the White Swords were split so perhaps there might have been some dissension amongst them should Viserys have shown up with an army (of Dothraki or the Golden Company... who knows?) to take the throne from Robert. Still, as long as Targaryens are alive, the White Swords so named by the Targaryen king have an oath to protect the heir and Robert's reign (to them) is a rebellion in progress which they simply have yet to put down.

I don't think they would have stayed at the Tower of Joy forever; I think they would have moved the Lyanna (had she lived) and the child to a safer place and built an army, just like Selmy is doing. Raised the banners of loyalists etc.

My personal opinion on Howland Reed and Dayne isn't so much that he used poison or somesuch, more that you have the three White Swords who face off against Ned and his 6 buddies, one of whom is known to come from a line of bog men who are masters of guerrilla tactics and light-armored, close-quarter combat with unconventional weapons.

I see Hightower and Whent cutting down a pair of Ned's friends quickly, probably size them up and cut down the most capable looking of the bunch to break them and save the rest for later, all the while underestimating Reed. Once it's 5 on three, Dayne takes out one more, after all, he's the Sword of Morning, they were probably terrified of him. Ned and Reed each finish off Whent and Hightower who've probably killed one of the 4 left. Dayne kills another leaving just Ned and Howland. They all stop, catch their breath while Ned says something honorable about not leaving without his sister to which Dayne spits some red goo from his sour leaf and says something like "I always liked you, Ned Stark. An' jist fer you, AFTER I sen'ya to th' Nine Hells to join them frien's a' yourn, I'll give yer little frog-eatin squire there a quick clean death. You gon' hav'ta take the newborn king over my dead body, you snow-shittin' sumbitch. Let's DO this, Leroy Jankins."

Or something like that...

[Dragonfish]

Kade,

I'm a bit unsure about what you're arguing. Do you think the Kinsguard most likely were guarding the heir to the throne, or just guarding Rhaegar's mistress and illegitimate child?

[Kade Blackwood]

Kade,

I'm a bit unsure about what you're arguing. Do you think the Kinsguard most likely were guarding the heir to the throne, or just guarding Rhaegar's mistress and illegitimate child?

Not really arguing; only stating my thoughts on why they were there and staying there. I happen to think that we can contextually conclude that they (at least felt that they) were protecting the heir as opposed to just an illegitimate child.

I quoted your post because you articulated the two possibilities of why they might be there and staying, not because I'm "arguing" with you or anyone, as it were.

[Dragonfish]

Not really arguing; only stating my thoughts on why they were there and staying there. I happen to think that we can contextually conclude that they (at least felt that they) were protecting the heir as opposed to just an illegitimate child.

I quoted your post because you articulated the two possibilities of why they might be there and staying, not because I'm "arguing" with you or anyone, as it were.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Urien the Ragged]

ned forbade anyone to harm barristan in the throne room during the initial line of succession confrontation, right before he was betrayed. rickard stark said that barristan was the finest knight that ever lived, ned thought that dayne was the finest knight that ever lived. i have a hard time believing that ned would have allowed anyone else to harm dayne besides himself.

i think ned proposed a one-on-one battle with dayne, during which howland attempted to warg dayne, reading his mind in the process, finding out who and what he was guarding. he stopped the fight before dayne could kill ned. ned and howland sided with the KG and were attacked by the 5 others. i'm not sure how the fight would have gone, but I believe that at least dayne survived to ride back to greywater watch with howland.

i don't think septa lemore is ashara, i'm actually rather convinced that she's wenda the white fawn.

[Nymeria's pup]

So are words for Crannogmen..."You have died of dysentery?" hee, hee

Seriously though, my first impression upon reading that story is that Reed either somehow distracted Dayne, either through word or action, for long enough for Ned to kill him, or Reed was able to kill Dayne when it looked like Dayne was about to kill Ned. I pictured the use of a net like his daughter. I doubt it was with poision because I don't think it would have time to act. I think the poisoned arrows are to ensure that the enemy are incompacitated or killed by even a scratch from the poison arrows. I also think Dayne must have been a superior knight, but no one wins all the time.

I just hope we meet Reed soon. I feel like he can answer many questions. I also wonder if his children know more about what happened at the tower than the Stark children.

[SweetRobin4Life]

People are getting way too carried away with the warging. With the exception of the starks the only wargs we've seen are among wildings, and they aren't common. Bran Is able to warg into Hodor, yes, but it's made clear he is one of the most powerful greenseers. Howland warging into Dayne to let Ned kill him would be ridiculous.

Seriously though, my first impression upon reading that story is that Reed either somehow distracted Dayne, either through word or action, for long enough for Ned to kill him, or Reed was able to kill Dayne when it looked like Dayne was about to kill Ned. I pictured the use of a net like his daughter.

Yes, this makes much more sense. At this point I doubt we'll even meet Howland, or if we do it'll only be to learn the identity of Jon's mother.

[Whorehammer]

I think Dayne stabbed Reed in the gut and Reed held the sword in there, just in time for Ned to stop Dayne. That explains why Reed never leaves his swamp, because of his injury.

Also, I think Reed + Lyanna = Jon

[Dragonfish]

People are getting way too carried away with the warging. With the exception of the starks the only wargs we've seen are among wildings, and they aren't common.

Well, Bloodraven can warg, and he's not a wildling.

Unless by "among the wildlings" you mean "above the Wall where the wildlings are", in which case you are correct, though I don't think this would negate the possibility of Howland being a warg.

Also, I think Reed + Lyanna = Jon

This is highly unlikely, since Jon was conceived a few months into the war, during which time Lyanna was being "held captive" by Rhaegar.

[SweetRobin4Life]

Well, Bloodraven can warg, and he's not a wildling.

Unless by "among the wildlings" you mean "above the Wall where the wildlings are", in which case you are correct, though I don't think this would negate the possibility of Howland being a warg.

True, I should have said that only those with First Men blood can warg. The wildlings have the most direct ancestry so that would explain why they have the highest concentration of wargs. If only First Men can warg then Bloodraven fits in neatly since his mother was a Blackwood

[Dragonfish]

True, I should have said that only those with First Men blood can warg. The wildlings have the most direct ancestry so that would explain why they have the highest concentration of wargs. If only First Men can warg then Bloodraven fits in neatly since his mother was a Blackwood

I think this is probably accurate. However, this still doesn't rule out Howland as a warg, since he also has First Men blood and, most tellingly, spent time with the greenseers on the Isle of Faces.

[The Red Crow]

Curious thought, never actually came into my mind (How silly of me)

I had originally assumed that Ned was just struggling about with Arthur, then Arthur is about to give the death blow, then wam...Howland Reed sved the day by a quick stab or an arrow.

But that does seem a bit Hollywood-movie-typical, and GRRM isn't typical. Perhaps Howland Reed is really a skilled warrior in itself. For the longest time ever, his house and people were completely underestimated.

Or, Howland warged with a bird, had it smack at Arthurs face as a distraction, and voila.

With Ned and his regard for honour....it is possible that he could have just disregarded it and played "Dirty" on behalf of Lyanna. After all, that was his sister. I think anyone would do anything, even using tactics, in order to get their beloved family member.

Maybe it is why Ned is so honourable to this day. He knew he "cheated" with an amazing knight in the past, and wanted a clean slate from then on.

[fatmike705]

ive always held the opinion that ned stark was a great fighter, much like a derek jeter, eli manning or robert horry ( of the sports world for the super nerds hah J/k) there are those with better stats, better skills and more fan fare but there is something to be said about those who rise to the occasion. thats the sense i got from ned, when the chips are down he has the abilty to keep his cool stay focused and scratch out a W. i think thats why ned wasnt great in tourneys he needs and thrives on the pressure that breaks other men

ive always pictured ned and dayne in a knock down drag out brawl toe to toe sword to sword and right at the moment it looked like ned was a goner reed blocked the fatal blow and was maybe hit with a big elbow or backhand or something but it was enough for ned to get his feet back under him and pull off a big upset

[Alexander Stark]

I always thought that Howland Reed made himself an abomination and warged Arthur Dayne for a small time giving Ned his chance to strike, and that, along with his guilt for the knight of laughing tree incident is why he hasnt been seen since

If the sword of morning could kill 5 kingsguard whilst taking a piss, he could kill some guy with a net and a frog spear whilst fighting ned.

[Aetta]

Meera says to Bran "that he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." So we know he know that he knows magic. Then he visits the Isle of Faces and stays with the "green men" all winter, when he was younger. I wonder if that could mean anything...maybe he used magic.

I'm into this, too. Otherwise, the memory is too vague, clearly meant to make us wonder at something other than a frogspear. I'm gonna go with body snatching, aka warging a la Bran & Hodor.

And, off topic, I think it's the same naughty behavior --warging or glamoring- that Brynden Rivers was caught doing, while in the act of assisting his "cousin" Egg. Maeker wasn't so fond of it, but Egg forgave it so long as BR got the hell out of dodge.

[Aetta]

I always thought that Howland Reed made himself an abomination and warged Arthur Dayne for a small time giving Ned his chance to strike, and that, along with his guilt for the knight of laughing tree incident is why he hasnt been seen since

If the sword of morning could kill 5 kingsguard whilst taking a piss, he could kill some guy with a net and a frog spear whilst fighting ned.

Yeah, so I didn't read your post before I posted, and you got there first. Whatever. I have a more colorful avatar than you.

[TheNinjaDC]

I don't think it was a poisoned arrow. After all, Dayne was covered in full plate mail. An arrow isn't going to do anything to him.

I've always thought that Reed stabbed Dayne from behind with his trident, perhaps in the joint at the knee, right before Dayne was readying to kill Stark. IIRC, we don't know explicitly if it was Reed or Stark who killed Dayne.

Ask the French about that....