[ADWD Spoilers] Did ADWD change your views of characters?

[brashcandy]

Brash

Well, my idea is that the Ironborn appeal more to the male demographic, even though that may not be inetentinally set up by GRRM, because they are like Viking raiders, ruthless characters, fierce warriors, sailors, conquerors, foul weather conditions, hard, grinding lives, the sort of hardscrabble primitive societies in which men tend to dominate women, where strength conquers all. As for POV's, sure, the Ironborn have Asha but I disagree that she is the most prominent character there. Euron, Victarion, Theon and Damphair more than counter that.

In contrast, Dorne seems more "female" to me, for lack of a better word. Whereas Doran keeps a low profile, he is surrounded by agressive, take-charge Sandsnakes and an uppity daughter who do whatever they like. They are a softer people, the water gardens, their whole culture, the mild sunny climate, but above all the Nymeria backstory, the feminist principles of Dorne, the women being warriors etc. I found all of that less appealing than the Ironborn story. Doran holds his own, but ultimately the Dorne storyline is more about the women there, and the Ironborn is more about the men.

What I like about him is that in the context of ADWD is that he is one of the few remaining badass characters who actually goes for his goal, no holds barred. He has power, and is using it. Certainly there is Euron still as a shadow over him. But at least he's actually doing things. He reflects perfectly what you'd expect a mighty Ironborn captain to do.

Thanks for elaborating, and your perspective makes sense. I still hate Victarion though. :P

[Tammy]

yes, i know what you mean. I don't know what to think when i read stuff like "don't make me rue the day when i raped your mom!! OMG roose is SO awesome!1111". No.

LOL! I am so oddly fascinated by the character of Roose Bolton that it's just not funny. He's completely amoral, unfeeling, uncompassionate...he's basically ice like his eyes. I'm completely entranced by the game he's playing that I want him to stick around for a while.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Roose and I can't wait to watch him get what's coming to him. I hope we get to watch his game unravel. He thinks he'll be dead before his house falls apart; I hope that isn't so for so very many reasons.

[Fleche de Chartres]

I think the character that really changed for me was Brandon Stark (Eddard's older brother). I think he is not painted in the best light by Lady Barbrey Dustin.

[Shrave]

I think the character that really changed for me was Brandon Stark (Eddard's older brother). I think he is not painted in the best light by Lady Barbrey Dustin.

Yeah I agree and prior to that you get this picture of a charming young hero who is the heir to winterfell and was going to marry Cat, etc etc etc.

[Chocolate_dream]

Jon went from one of my most favorite characters in AGOT, to being one of my least favorites. He's such a know-it-all as a LC. He also has no people skills and comes off as a thoughtless jerk.

I can't stand Baristan and all his righteousnous.

Melisandre. At first I thought she was cunning and creepy, now I realize she's just stupid.

[noobilly]

My opinion of Manderly and Doran went in completely opposite directions. Earlier my impression of Manderly was "ok fat guy", now he's incredibly awesome. On the other hand, in AFFC my impression of Doran when he gave his little "fire and blood" speech to Arianne was "light side Tywin Lannister", now he's dropped to Edmure level.

[Wildroses]

@noobilly: Dropped to Edmure level? That is easily the most hurtful and nasty thing I have ever read on this board. :lol:

Wyman and Wylla Manderley I think is everyone's most rapid change of opinion. They sort of went from being background figures you felt mildly well disposed towards to two of the most awesome, brave and cunning people ever. Alys Karstark I had the same feelings about.

My opinion of Brienne has changed a bit. Clearly she is lying to Jaime and it looks like she's pulling him into a trap. I'm not sure I trust her to be always good and honourable now, and even if she does believe everything she's telling him, she is majorly stupid for bringing Jaime alone and not having some backup.

Also, Bran. I don't know, but reading his chapters in the latest book, I just couldn't help feeling very uneasy about his safety and conscience. Arya's conscience I have been worried about for a long time, so Dance changed nothing there.

And Queen Selyse. Before Dance, I thought she was a bit stupid but basically okay. Now, I don't think she stupid, I think she is a complete and utter moron, and I very much dislike her willful blindness, snobbery, selfishness and callousness.

[Tammy]

I think the character that really changed for me was Brandon Stark (Eddard's older brother). I think he is not painted in the best light by Lady Barbrey Dustin.

I forgot about him. Until this point, I thought that all Starks were the same like Ned. Ned had talked about how Lyanna and Bran were wild, had a bit of wolf blood in them, but I didn't think anything of it really. I still thought Brandon would basically be just like Ned. Boy was I wrong. It made the entire family more interesting in a single stroke!

[Ishuäl]

Theon: I now love his chapters, not just because of the redemption arc but because they were so well written

Bran: Far more interesting than before, finally he's getting somewhere

Tyrion: Disappointigly uninteresting chapters, but no major changes for how I view the character

Dany: Same, except that I now think she would make an appalling queen and her "I'm just a littl girl and know little of these things" somehow lost its irony

Varys: Confusing games he is playing... I always assumed that he did not care who sat on the throne as long as they are good for the realm, I hope that has not changed

Barristan: Cooler than ever

Victarion: Same, but in a darker way

Most other characters have not changed in my mind... Jon was whiny sending all his friends away, yes, but he had that tendency before.

[MeepMeep]

seeing Melisandre as limited and not-so-much-of-a-bad-buy was more surprising than I would have expected, even given Martin's skill at portraying characters who are justified in their own minds.

I found myself liking Melisandre more, as well. However, reading her POV and trying to reconcile it with the shadow babies and the assassination attempt gone bad by the Maester at Dragonstone and the desire to sacrifice every royal she comes across leaves me reeling.

[Valmorfëa]

What I really love about these books is how much the characters change and how GRRM can make us go 180° on our opinions...

I also like Theon much more now (I used to be indifferent), he's still quite young but he's been through enough to make him very interesting and quite unpredictable.

Dany used to be my favourite... and although I understand that she has alot of responsibility on her shoulders (but hey! so did Robb and Jon and countless others), she often seems to act foolishly and doesn't seem to have foresight. I mean come on, she was with Drogon for how many days? And she didn't even try to get some sort of control/relationship with him?! Where did she THINK Meereen would go without its 'Mother'? And she didn't even TRY to tame the other two dragons. Just dumped them in a hole and forgot about them. She doesn't seem to be learning anything either - she could have gotten a full history of Westeros out of Barristan (the only time she actually asked him anything was when going to her wedding...)

In AFFC I was quite bored of the Night's Watch chapters... but now I've really grown to like and respect Jon. I remember reading him thinking how the Lord Commander should be as wise as Aemon, as well read as Sam, etc. and Jon is all those things! Despite all the knives in the dark, he IS a good leader, a good man, and a fighter. He's one of the only characters who has his head on straight. Truly Ned's son. I'd loathe to see him die or become an Other... he has too much potential to be a great ruler (whether of the NW or whatever). I don't think he's shortsighted at all... as Melisandre (was it?) said - him and Stannis are quite similiar in the fact that they are pragmatic and just... and tends to think that others understand those concepts, but most are not like him (i.e what someone said: no people skills). Jon plans in advance to provision the Night's Watch, he organises, thinks strategically, he's intelligent. Its just a shame that the rest of his people don't see it. Too many changes, too fast. It makes any simple man nervous. But Jon didn't have a choice, sadly, he did the best he could under the circumstances. (Bar the Bolton decision, I'm keeping that out of here because I think the daggers would have come regardless).

No change for me in Cersei, same psychobitch. I DO hope Jaime kills her (and what an excellent character he is, I think he's gonna be staying till the end too... Brienne better not touch a hair on his pretty head!).

Quentyn seemed okay in the beginning, I was curious to see what would come of him. A complete idiot, as it may. Ended up completely disliking the character for his stupidity. Dany may not love her husband, but that doesn't annul her marriage, fool! Ugh. Good riddance, sorry Doran.

Arya... meeeh... has been really up and down for me, I've loved and hated her, but now I'm just indifferent. Her chapters have become a little aimless.

Still bored with Bran.

Tyrion need to let-the-fuck-go of freaking Tysha! Come ON how long ago was that?! Nobody cares where whores go. And Penny annoys the shit out of me, I'm glad she got a slap. I hope she rides the pale mare to a swift end. I like Tyrion and I want him to get to Dany already.

I thought Victarion's chapters were interesting... but I feel nothing for the man himself. I'd like to see more of Euron though - he's well read and travelled, I'm looking forward to what he might teach us.

Definitely warming up to Asha even more now.

I also thought Melisandre was an evil witch, but yeah... she just seems like a bit of a naive girl now :/

I'm afraid Aegon is going to be the new Renly, since his new identity is no longer hidden he's getting arrogant, which is never good. I hope he stays around though, he owes Tyrion his life and I want to see him help our dwarf regain his honour.

FInally the Sand Snakes are being put to good use, can't wait to see what kind of mayhem they get up to! :D

[Daeron Targaryen]

At the end of ADWD my opinion of most characters didn't change that much, but some character improved and some worsened.

I now like Theon quite alot, his arc going from Reek to Theon again was among the best part of the book, and while I despised him in ACOK now I'm rooting for him (and hope that Ramsay wil sufffer a lot in the end); his chapters are the perfect example of "careful what you wish for, you might get it"! How amny people wanted him to suffer horribly for his actions, and now are horrified by his comeuppance?

Jon is still one of my favourite chracters, and I enjoyed his chapters vary much; he catually improved as a charcter since he starts to make some real decisions, which are mostly sound, however it is interesting seeing also his mistakes, for all his trying he can't "kill the boy" and is unable to make the hard decisions, and he is also a very bad politician (no wonder, he's Ned's son) and loses the trust of the upper echeleons of the watch and he's unable or unwilling to share responsibilty with them and get them to see his point of view or convice them that his actions are for the best. Regarding the wildling he seem to want to save everyone when he calarly can't and lose the support of his men beacuse of it. He's suprrinsingly stupid rgarding Mel, he never trust her when she gives him counsel, I really can't fathon why he didn't ask about his enemies in the Watch after many of her predictions were at least partially right.

Dany: abngain one of my favotrite characters, I was not thrilled by her actions but I think they are very undertandable given her age and her lack of training in ruling. I also see a parallel with Jon's arc: they both ultimately fail at command because the can't bring themselves to make the hard decisions required, they don0t want to pay the price for ruling. As Jon can't "kill the boy", Dany cant actually master the distinction between "what the girl wants and what the queen needs", she deludes herlsef in thinking that she has got the hang of it but instead she constantly gives in into her "girl's desires" even if she knows it's unwise and damaging to her. Just like Jon she seems unable to understand that she can't save everyone, she can't avoid her freedmen suffering and she can't really protect the mereneese population from her roaming dragons, she seems to understand that slavery is the way of life of her city but she can't bring herself to allow it. In the end she, like Jon gets hbetrayed and brings her people on the brink of civil war. I think her story arc is perfectly undestandabale and her mistakes are perfectly believable and human, tankig into account that not only she lacked advisors skilled in politics but she had no training wtahsoever in ruling (while Jon is more effective because he was actually trained by Ned).

Tyrion, he was boring, apart from the tidbits about the dragons, the 16 wonders, and his connections with Griff and Aegon, his voyages seems pointless and annoying. However his mental state is interesting and I like to watch how he develops now that he has lost everything and killed Tywin, the man that defined his life since he was born.

Jaime: liked seeing Raventree Hall but for the rest i was useless.

Cersei interesting chapter Iliked how she was humiliated, want to see what she'll do next.

Arya: don't care much about her, hope she escapes soon and reunites with nymeria, hopefully with a few tricks learned from the Kindly old man. However until now the anly lessond she found useful were those of Syrio.

Bran: loved to see Bloodraven as the 3 eyed crow; actually jumped around the room. I'm worried about barn warging into Hodor and what will happen when he's discovered, it's becoming a strong habit for him. Why no one ever taught him it's wrong? Very curious about the greensight and the memories of the weirwoods.

Victarion: got to hell, you're boring. And I nver like dyou or your culture of glorified thieves.

Asha: she's the only ironborn I can stand (beside the Reader), she seems smart and grounded. Often sound plans, hope she takes the Iron Islands away from Euron.

Quentin, interesting but eventuallly boring, can't see the meaning of his chapters if not for the tidbit about "one rider-one dragon at a time" rule.

Melisandre, liked to see that she is well meaning but terribly shortsighted and stubborn.

Stannis is getting a little bit more likeable and less hypocritical now that he seems to be able to bend his principles, not enought become likable though. Too stubborn and prejudiced.

Ah, loved lord Manderly's character and his desiere for vengeance(and was moved by the promise, I see the manderlys as the opposite of the Boltons) I also like a lot Alys Karstark, seemd an older Arya, action-oriented and fearless.

Deepley despise the Queen and her cronies.

Val and Tormund are very likable, Mance too.

[Gemini]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only person who wasn't shocked that Theon became more sympathetic in this book. Actually, I fully expected it once I starting hearing rumors that he was going to be back in the picture in Dance. Ever since GRRM lifted Jaime from my most hated character, whom I hated so much I considered Cersei to be too good for him (I'm really not exagerating), to my favorite character of all, standing well above the rest, I've come to always expect him to change my mind about characters.

That said, I'm not totally in love with Theon anyway, though I did go from hating his guts to feeling kind of sorry for him. I no longer wish horrible, awful things on him, because they've already happened. While his arc in this book was very good, I can't say he's anywhere near my favorites list yet. Maybe he'll get there yet, but so far, no.

I also really do not understand the hype surrounding Victarion right now. Dude is casually burning women alive. Not okay.

Tyrion, who used to be more or less tied with Jaime for first, got knocked down a bit in this book for reasons I probably don't need to state. But he pulled himself up a little more again towards the end when he stopped moping so much and seemed to start acting a little more like his old self. I hope it keeps up.

Dany more or less stayed the same. I've always liked her character, I do see that she isn't a particularly effective ruler, but I still enjoy reading about her. This wasn't her best book by any stretch, but I think it was full of lessons that she'll (hopefully) take to heart, and what happens in Meereen stays in Meereen.

Jon is another I've always liked and this book pushed him up a notch or two. I even like the way his last chapter ended. I was sad--duh! But at the same time, it was a beautifully tragic conclusion to everything he'd been working on throughout the novel. Strangely enough, Jon is one of the few characters whose ending in this book I am completely satisfied with, whether he turns out to be alive or dead.

Cersei. I believe I should first say that after how my feelings changed regarding Jaime in book three, when I saw that Cersei was a perspective in book four, I was expecting a similar shift in how I felt about her. And while I did find her entertaining, I obviously did not build the sort of affection I have for her twin. After Dance, however, I am desperately awaiting more from Cersei. I really want to see what she's like after that walk. Hopefully it changed her somehow, which I think it did. I'm not sure I'll end up loving her, but hopefully shit will go down.

Bran is one of the characters I had the biggest reaction to in Dance. I had always found him kind of boring, but considered him sort of an investment. He was on a journey, and I didn't find the journey very interesting, but perhaps the destination would be worth while. Well, I'm more than satisfied. That last Bran chapter had me turning the pages and wishing there were more. Bran jumped up so many notches on my favorites list. I can't wait for more from him.

Arya and Asha stayed in pretty much the same place. I like them both, want to see more from each, though more from Arya.

And if the earlier parts of my post didn't make this clear enough: Jaime is amazing. If he's dead, I'm going to be so pissed, and sad, and not okay. :angry2: :crying: :thumbsdown:

[The Oncoming Storm]

Yeah.

Theon: Now I like him.

Asha: A bit less boring.

Victarion: Hilarious and badass.

Mance: went from "kinda cool" to :wub:

Roose: I fangirl him to no end.

Manderly: Didn't even remember who he was, now he's AWESOME.

Dany: Someone just slap her!

Jon: Wow, I'm beginning to like hi - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Marsh, you idiot, wtf are you doing?

Mel: He saved my Mance. And is kinda nice.

Davos: Wow, some actual plot is coming his way! Or so I hope.

Barristan: even MORE badass than before.

Stannis: I realized he was dear to me when Ramsay claimed he was dead. NO WAI BASTARD.

Jorah: Pretty boring from Tyrion's POV... and mostly drunk and angsty.

Arya: Some might worry she's becoming an assassin, I cheer. Badass underage assassins ftw!

Missandei: from "that nice little girl" to "MISSANDEI FOR PRESIDENT!"

Gregor: It was so sweet when he picked up Cersei. I ship them now. Wouldn't it be fun if Robert Strong turned out to be a true knight by accident? :D

No change:

Doran: still "dude, just DO something or DIE already".

[Jojen]

Well, Victarion seems a lot funnier to me now than before.

I have more respect for Jon than previously, and I've always kinda liked him.

I still feel the same about Dany, though, which is to say I still don't like her much.

I'm feeling a little sorry for Barristan. More and more he seems to be living in the past, trying to recall his glory days.

I'm a little more intrigued by Brown Ben Plumm now.

And I agree with Selmy, I'm even more confused about Varys than ever.

[dunbarbw]

I used to like Jon, but it turns out he's a douche with no people skills who doesnt take anything his advisors say into account who thinks himself infallible.

Hey Jon, sorry you feel bad about all the Wildlings who are gonna die at Hardhome and yeah the might come back as wights, but guess what you being a stubborn dick has led too? One of your best commanders, your entire fleet, and god knows how many of your sworn brothers are probably dead and gone and those Wildlings are still gonna come back as wights.

Whats that? Despite that colossal failure you want to send out another shitload of men with tons of your already dwindling supplies to try and rescue them AGAIN?

It's no wonder Bowmen Marsh shanked him.

[Rodgex]

No change:

Doran: still "dude, just DO something or DIE already".

I couldn't agree more :P

As for the other characters:

Jon: Actually loved how his character was developing, and the decisions her was making, and his decision to go south. I hope he's not dead dead....

Arya: Still love her, awesome child assassin ftw!

Cersei: I actually felt a pang of pity for her, as weird as that is to say.

Tyrion: Very unsure about what he's actually doing, but still laughed like crazy at points in his POVs.

Ramsay Snow: Hate him with a passion, still.

Roose Bolton: A kind of begrudging respect, don't know why though...

Theon: I think I'm with everyone here in that I actually like him now, and really pitied him as Reek.

Stannis: I want him to be king,

Tormund Giantsbane: How many jokes were there about his member?

Melisandre: Still now sure what she is up to, but I kinda like her.

Dany: When will she head back to Westeros already?

Varys: What the hell?!

Davos: Hurray for awesome adventure time, still one of my favourite characters.

Bran: Do rather enjoy where his story is going.

I don't actually think it has overly changed my views of the characters, with obvious exceptions, so much as maybe strengthened them, but my views have definitely been affected. So when is Winds of Winter out then??

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Theon- I'm not going to be a member of the theon fanclub, but i do like him more than i did in ACOK. I can't say he didn't deserve some punishment for killing the two kids, but damn. As long as he helps take out Ramsay then he's okay in my book.

Dany- I still like the charector, but she made me facepalm a lot. I geuss that's to be expected since she went from having leadership of a somewhat small group to leadership of three big cities.

Tyrion- I still like him, but his chapters were a bit dissapointing.

Jon, Moved up from a guy i sorta liked to a guy i was really rooting for.

Barristan- this guy was already a grade a badass, but he seemed to go into overdrive in a couple chapters.

Bran- I've liked the guy since book 2 when the Reeds came in. but i'm not to into the whole warging into Hodor thing.

Jorah- I felt sorry for him when he became a slave and sorta lost his will to live i geuss. Not that he didn't deserve it.

[Dayne's Sword]

Lord Wyman manderley for me was the biggest change in feeling. from fat pussy to one canny, subtle, true bannerman of house stark.

i agree with the first poster Arya's lack of compassion when killing is scary. but she has done what she has done to survive so although not justifiable it is understandable. however since blood and gold i have been a bit worried for her as the old woman who was at sumemrhall (intresting) told her to back off "darkheart". ever since then ive assumed that her story ar was going to get darker and ultimatley more tragic (nissa nissa prehaps? if jon is AA and they meet up again).

Dany has certainly regressed. regardless of why GRRM has brought dany down this road she is losing what little respect for her i had in the first place. her obsession with darrio imo is her emotional psyche trying to find an escape from the responsibility of life.and her postion as ruler and the siutations she is in. I am on my second slower reread and she has just gotten married. this theory came to me as i was trying to find a reason for her infatuation with darrio. And the language she uses when thinking of him. suggets that part of her wants to escape the life she is in and darrio personifies devil may care, to hell with responsibility. add in the fact she hasent had a sex life since drogo died. (irri doesnt count as dany states she feels no satisfaction from it. implying irri is a living dildo?) i also agree with the poster Snow Bound about the whole "im a targ i demand this and that" and Blood of the dragon attitude.

Apart from the end of Jon's last chapter i found his story arc to of grown. Always been a fan of Jon and his leadership of the NW has been visionary and awesome. His choices were not designed to make him popular or feather peoples nests/intrests. he did what he needed to be done for the realm and the people in it. beacuse it was the right thing to do. for a quick eg. the inviting of the wildlings south of the wall and the rescue mission to hardhome. he saw the neede to limit the numbers of undead coming at the wall. he saw the opportunity to get more manpower to man the wall against the coming invasion. he saw that the wildlings are not the real enemy. they never were. and that the real enemy was the Others. factors that the stewards and builders did not see. The English PM William Gladstone in the late 19c had many faults but he did/tried to do a lot of things that were the right things to do despite a lot of opposition. retaining power was not on the agenda.

I always liked Theon as a concept but thought he was a grade A plum. i thought his chapers were some of the best in the book. but he is nowhere near jaime standards on the redemption trail. the whole of his arc in this book was so he could find his name again. thats it. the attonement for his actions are still to come.

tyrion has darkend quite a bit. he always had a bitter streak and i dont blame him. but that side of him is getting darker. i hope he will find companions he can find a measure of peace with. hopefully with Jon as they had a wonderful friendship in AGOT

Mel has gone from scary mystery sinister woman to the physical equivilant of words are wind.

Bran is mixed for me. his lack of a father figure is showing. his warging into Hodor shows this. on the other hand since AGOT i've liked the plucky little bugger

Barristan Selmy got even more hardcore. imagine him, the Blackfish, Arthur Dayne as capains under Robb Stark :fencing:

[Guest]

Dayne's Sword, I agree with everything you said. All of the characters changed in the same way for me.

Have to add on to Tyrion here. Never really liked him until this book. I always sensed he was Martin's alter-ego and that he loved him a bit overmuch, hence I was supposed to love him too! But I never did. I warmed up to him a bit in a re-read a few years ago, but I still didn't find him charming or funny, just annoying. Then once I saw Dinklage's performance, I finally "got" his style of humor. I think I just needed a good actor to push me to the point where I understood the character's reason for life. So in this book I really enjoyed Tyrion's story. Though I'm still disgusted with his behavior (his treatment of prostitutes is even more repulsive), at least I laughed along with him. I liked his interactions with Penny, even though she's only there for his personal growth (like Shae. and Tysha. and every other woman he's ever met).

And Jon. Oh Jon, why did you have to be so smart and so stupid at the same time? Jon is my favorite character, and I was rooting for him nonstop in this book. But by the end I was so mad at that last chapter - mad at the illogical way Martin wrote it, mad at the cliffhanger ending, mad at Marsh and his short-sighted conspirators, mad at Ramsay for lying through his teeth, and mad at Jon for getting so worked up about it - that I didn't even want to read the rest of the book, and pretty much decided to end it right there. (Okay, I read the last chapters in a fury, but then I started to get even angrier at the lack of resolution in those chapters as well). I just want Jon to be respected by the readership. My fellow ASOIAF friends all think he's an idiot now, so there goes that hope.