[ADWD Spoilers] Did ADWD change your views of characters?

[The King in the South]

Of course!

Theon became likable.

Dany became hateable.

Jon became facepalmable.

[Calibandar]

I would say that I had ambiguous feelings about Dany's character before ADWD, and that that has largely stayed the same throughout the book. There is good and bad about her decisions and self-righteousness.

Jon didn't use to be my favorite Stark- and still isn't, but after Bran he almost is. I preferred reading about Robb and Eddard, but Jon has really grown in this book, and his character arc is strong.

Tyrion- same feelings as with Dany, I am ambiguous about him, don't share the love many readers and GRRM himself have for the character. He used to be very interesting, will probably be interesting again in the future, but the character was a shade of himself and far less present in ADWD.

Bran I am still very keen on, nothing has changed. I like Connington and Aegon. Rhaegar and Arthur, as well as Barristan, continue to stand as powerful heroes of the near-past, mythical in proportion, with Barristan the sole living legend.

I think one character that I always kind of liked, but have grown to love more, is Stannis. He's got those character flaws, but he's still basically a decent guy and you can see why he feels he is in the right.

I will say that I find Arya's storyline ever less interesting, to the point that her chapters are the ones I am almost as inclined to skip as Cersei's and Brienne's in AFFC. Not quite as bad as they are, but none of her 5 chapters in AFFC and ADWD have compelled me even remotely. A stark contrast to the 3 meagre Bran chapters, which I find fascinating. I guess the idea of an 11 year old girl assassin just doesn't appeal to me at all. This contrasts strongly with Arya's storyline in CoK and SoS, which was very good.

Davos is a character that still bores me, but all of a sudden with Rickon, Osha and Skaags in the pipeline, they are very interesting. Similarly I think Sam's chapters at the Citadel will be great.

Victarion has become much more interesting to me in Dance, so that is a character changed in perception. Jaime also, despite the fact that I cannot forgive him for what he's done, is becoming a very interesting character to read about. I didn't really feel that when we started getting his chapters in ASOS.

And speaking of groups, I find the Ironborn more interesting now, but the Dornish did not live upto what I had hoped. It just seems like GRRM is appealing far more to the female demographic with the Dornish, whereas the Ironborn feels far more centred around men, culturally as well as in the individual characters shown.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Jon... I think his decisions were spot on.

You mean his repeated decisions to send every single man who was loyal to him as far away as possible?

Or his decision to abandon the wall and lead an army of Wildlings in a political war?

Jon did mature a lot, and he finally had the opportunity to make decisions of his own will, rather than constantly being forced upon him as they were before. And I really did love his dynamic with Stannis. I respect him 100x more than I did. But his decisions were still frustratingly short-sighted. He still refuses to understand what Maester Aemon and The Old Bear and Samwell and Pyp and Green taught him again and again and again. That he must choose - be a true man of the Night's Watch, and forsake bonds of family and love, or to be doomed by those bonds.

My opinion of Crows Eye, Euron, is AWESOME! I hope he rules the Iron Throne. I wish there was either a POV or a POV of someone close to him. I think he's a total badass, even more so than the naive Victarion. Go CROWS EYE! That scene at the Kingsmoot in Feast sealed the deal for me. He's the only character I root for right now in a wholistic iron throne sense.

Euron is a rapist, murderer, torturer and sadist. You might as well have a Bolton on the Iron Throne. Actually he's very like Roose to be honest.

[brashcandy]

Victarion has become much more interesting to me in Dance, so that is a character changed in perception. Jaime also, despite the fact that I cannot forgive him for what he's done, is becoming a very interesting character to read about. I didn't really feel that when we started getting his chapters in ASOS.

And speaking of groups, I find the Ironborn more interesting now, but the Dornish did not live upto what I had hoped. It just seems like GRRM is appealing far more to the female demographic with the Dornish, whereas the Ironborn feels far more centred around men, culturally as well as in the individual characters shown.

I have to disagree with you here. Victarion seems to be a pretty popular character, althuogh for the life of me, I can't see why. The man has simply gotten more evil like his brother Euron, but your interest in him or his storylne is not what I'm debating.

It's your assessment that the Ironborn is more centred on men than it is around women that I disagree with. IMO, Asha has always been the most prominent character in the whole Ironborn plot, and her relevance continues. Further, the issue of how the Ironborn men treat women is always foremost in their stories for me, and I think it is one of the despicable aspects of their entire culture. So I don't think that GRRM has centred the Ironborn narrative around men at all, or if so only to highlight their utter disregard for the rights of women and their abuse of the women in their lives. I'm thinking here of Euron marrying Asha off to some local man without her consent, Victarion's base treatment of the dusky woman, the setting of the ship afire with the slave girls, and the murder of his own wife, plus the keeping of salt wives in general.

Neither is GRRM "appealing far more to the female demographic" with the Dornish chapters either. If you're referring to the Sand Snakes, I'm sure they're lots of female readers who don't like them, and lots of males who do! But more to the point, the Sand Snakes and Arianne Martell have been largely dormant for two whole books now. Doran Martell was the focus of AFFC and Quentyn's quest for Dany formed the basis of ADWD.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

My feelings have changed a bit. I'll just discuss PoV characters.

Dany - she's always been my favorite, and still is. However, I see her flaws a lot more than I ever did before. Most of the book, it was like she was living in a daze... didn't seem to even know what was going on around her, very unlike her perceptiveness she had displayed previously. She underestimates and misjudges the ex-slavers in Meereen, and fails to understand how deep their hatred and resentment goes. She is caught in a frustrating situation where action would doom her people - and inaction paralyzes her. I was thrilled at her final two chapters, though. She seems to be waking up, thinking like her former self again. Also best quote ever: YOU ARE THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON. YOU CAN MAKE A HAT :rofl: As for Daario, Jon had his ill-advised-yet-mind-blowing sex last book. Dany's got the right to hers.

Jon - I really like Jon now, and before I really did not. His was the biggest turn around for me since Jaime in aSoS. Before aDwD, Jon was constantly being handed honors, left and right, all the while whining about how no one appreciates him blah blah blah. He never made a difficult decision in his life, quite literally, until now. Now, he is finally an agent. And BOY, he does he take the bull by the horns! I feel with Jon's arc, GRRM wants us to be cheering him on hoping he does more... But he does fuck himself over majorly because he, like Dany, fails to understand the motivations of those around him. Yes, he knows Marsh doesn't like what He's doing, but Jon doesn't seem to grasp why. Marsh turns on Jon because Jon is destroying the meaning of Marsh's life - he is dismantling the Night's Watch, a bit at a time.

Theon - now this is interesting. I never hated Theon, and I still don't. I really don't understand this as being a redemptive arc as so many have said. It was basically just violence and torture for the sake of it, to me. Theon didn't have to go through that, IMO, in order to regret what happened. He regretted what happened almost from the day he took Winterfell, and certainly the moment that Ramsey turned on him sealed it. Nothing has really changed, other than that Theon is a completely broken human being now. Honestly I am confused by the idea that I should suddenly love him simply because he was nearly tortured to death. If Ramsey was tortured to death instead, It wouldn't make me love him any better. :dunno:

Tyrion - I feel we are supposed to be seeing Tyrion come back up from a nadir, which was the moment he strangled Shae. And we are supposed to see his friendship with Penny as redemptive (after all he helps her when he has no reason to do so). But it's all so pet-the-dog. And he's basically a dick most of the time to everyone else. I feel about the same as I did about him at the end of aSoS, which is to say decidedly mixed. I think he's a raging mysoginist and this comes through in several instances. And you don't win any points by wishing you could rape your sister or murder your father again. I also think he's a smart man, and will be useful to Daenerys. So... :dunno:

Bran - his chapters were so sad... I don't know where to start. Comparing this Bran to Bran's first chapter, happily climbing... Or even his chapters in aCoK playing with Summer and Meera in the Godswood. My heart ahhh... :crying:

Barristan - I came into the book respecting Barristan, though being a bit irritated at his rigidness. In Dany's chapters he pissed me off royally, because he gave the worst advice ever, and acted like a parrot. He genuinely seemed to think that as long as someone was a king they could do no wrong. Which is disturbing but unsurprising for a loyal servant of Aerys Targaryen. His PoV chapters changed my attitude back, because finally he decided to become less rigid, and arrested a king! It's a huge change for him, and for the better.

[Whatever]

You mean his repeated decisions to send every single man who was loyal to him as far away as possible?

Or his decision to abandon the wall and lead an army of Wildlings in a political war?

Jon did mature a lot, and he finally had the opportunity to make decisions of his own will, rather than constantly being forced upon him as they were before. And I really did love his dynamic with Stannis. I respect him 100x more than I did. But his decisions were still frustratingly short-sighted. He still refuses to understand what Maester Aemon and The Old Bear and Samwell and Pyp and Green taught him again and again and again. That he must choose - be a true man of the Night's Watch, and forsake bonds of family and love, or to be doomed by those bonds.

What does "sending people away" have to do with his "bonds of family and love"?

Also, i think that "short-sighted" is the least apt word you could find - jon did some quite huge errors (sending away aemon and not telling marsh about the deal with the iron bank) but he wasn't short sigthed at all.. he is the only person in the watch who fully understands how dangerous the others are.. i wouldn't call this short sighted. Yes, he failed to make the watch share his ideals, but his plan was great, imo (it's apity that it's not going to work, whatever happens at the beginning of winds... but the wall HAS to fall or the story will never end)

EDIT: @MyDog, i think your comparison of Roose and Euron is just perfect. Kudos

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

What does "sending people away" have to do with his "bonds of family and love"?

Yeah that was more about the second one. This was more just... idiotic. :)

Also, i think that "short-sighted" is the least apt word you could find - jon did some quite huge errors (sending away aemon and not telling marsh about the deal with the iron bank) but he wasn't short sigthed at all.. he is the only person in the watch who fully understands how dangerous the others are.. i wouldn't call this short sighted. Yes, he failed to make the watch share his ideals, but his plan was great, imo (it's apity that it's not going to work, whatever happens at the beginning of winds... but the wall HAS to fall or the story will never end)

I really don't agree. Jon's plan was... what? To expend valuable resources in a winter march against Ramsey Bolton in Winterfell? To do everything he could to undermine the authority of the current Warden of The North? How exactly are these things going to help the fight against The Others? We might say that stopping Ramsey was the morally correct thing to do, but was it the best action to take in preparation for the true battle? I say no.

No, Jon was short-sighted and allowed his love for family to outweigh his duty. In the end, he threw away all he'd built to protect the realm from the true threat becuase he loved his sister, and he loved his dead father and brothers. And now the Watch will fall, and with it the realm.

FWIW I totally agree with Jon's actions WRT the wildlings and other preparations. They needed to be let through the wall, and the rescue at Hardhome was bold and I think justified. Plus, more men to guard the wall is definitely good. But so much that he did was not only against his Vows, but also undermined the whole idea of the watch as apolitical.

EDIT: @MyDog, i think your comparison of Roose and Euron is just perfect. Kudos

Thanks. A lot of people seem to like Roose too which disturbs me almost as much...

[Landis]

Hoping against hope that Cersei's public shame fest drives her to become the evil, scheming, manipulative badass I hoped she was until reading her POVs in AFFC. I can't even describe how disappointing it was to find out she was a vain, incompetent, paranoid ruler lacking any guile.

[King_In_The_North]

A lot of people seem to like Roose too which disturbs me almost as much...

YESSS thank you. Roose is a terrible person in every imaginable way.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

YESSS thank you. Roose is a terrible person in every imaginable way.

I think it's the Hannibal Lector effect. In fact I think that Roose is basically Lector. I don't believe for a second that Ramsey's the only Bolton flaying people for fun.

[Shrave]

You mean his repeated decisions to send every single man who was loyal to him as far away as possible?

Or his decision to abandon the wall and lead an army of Wildlings in a political war?

Jon did mature a lot, and he finally had the opportunity to make decisions of his own will, rather than constantly being forced upon him as they were before. And I really did love his dynamic with Stannis. I respect him 100x more than I did. But his decisions were still frustratingly short-sighted. He still refuses to understand what Maester Aemon and The Old Bear and Samwell and Pyp and Green taught him again and again and again. That he must choose - be a true man of the Night's Watch, and forsake bonds of family and love, or to be doomed by those bonds.

Euron is a rapist, murderer, torturer and sadist. You might as well have a Bolton on the Iron Throne. Actually he's very like Roose to be honest.

Yes, Jon made those choices so he'd have good people that he trusted in other castles along the wall. It's a decision he made and paid the price for it, but I think I'd have made the same decision. The decisions I was really referring to were his choices with the wildlings. I think that's the right way to go and realizing the others are the common enemy of all of westeros.

One thing I do agree is his last decision of going to Winterfell. I agree, it was a totally WTF type of scene/decision. Until we find out more about that and his 2 hour meeting with Tormund, I'll reserve my final judgement of him for later. But again, I think he'll remain dead for the series.

You hear about Euron's stories, you never actually experience them. And who isn't a murder and a torturer??? I think Euron has some common sense and good knowledge of the world. If you don't like him for the reasons you stated, then

[Whatever]

Yeah that was more about the second one. This was more just... idiotic. :)

oh yes, it was... i can understand pyp and grenn, but AEMON? naaa

I really don't agree....

nah, i was referring to the whole let-the-wildlings-pass-the-wall thing, which i found brilliant. I had reactions to jon's last chapter.. finally doing something south of the wall was like saying "screw the rules! I'm finally going to do something" which i loved it, but the way it was handled was weird. But i suppose we'll have to wait...

Thanks. A lot of people seem to like Roose too which disturbs me almost as much...

You're welcome. I also liked you post #25, especially the theon part.

yes, i know what you mean. I don't know what to think when i read stuff like "don't make me rue the day when i raped your mom!! OMG roose is SO awesome!1111". No.

[Calibandar]

Brash

Further, the issue of how the Ironborn men treat women is always foremost in their stories for me, and I think it is one of the despicable aspects of their entire culture. So I don't think that GRRM has centred the Ironborn narrative around men at all, or if so only to highlight their utter disregard for the rights of women and their abuse of the women in their lives

Well, my idea is that the Ironborn appeal more to the male demographic, even though that may not be inetentinally set up by GRRM, because they are like Viking raiders, ruthless characters, fierce warriors, sailors, conquerors, foul weather conditions, hard, grinding lives, the sort of hardscrabble primitive societies in which men tend to dominate women, where strength conquers all. As for POV's, sure, the Ironborn have Asha but I disagree that she is the most prominent character there. Euron, Victarion, Theon and Damphair more than counter that.

In contrast, Dorne seems more "female" to me, for lack of a better word. Whereas Doran keeps a low profile, he is surrounded by agressive, take-charge Sandsnakes and an uppity daughter who do whatever they like. They are a softer people, the water gardens, their whole culture, the mild sunny climate, but above all the Nymeria backstory, the feminist principles of Dorne, the women being warriors etc. I found all of that less appealing than the Ironborn story. Doran holds his own, but ultimately the Dorne storyline is more about the women there, and the Ironborn is more about the men.

I have to disagree with you here. Victarion seems to be a pretty popular character, althuogh for the life of me, I can't see why.

What I like about him is that in the context of ADWD is that he is one of the few remaining badass characters who actually goes for his goal, no holds barred. He has power, and is using it. Certainly there is Euron still as a shadow over him. But at least he's actually doing things. He reflects perfectly what you'd expect a mighty Ironborn captain to do.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

oh yes, it was... i can understand pyp and grenn, but AEMON? naaa

He sent away Aemon b/c he was afraid that someone (ahem) was going to get the bright idea to burn him b/c he's the blood of a king. He was trying to protect the old man's life. He did it out of love, and he wishes he hadn't had to b/c he desperately needed Aemon's advice. I don't think this was a bad decision. It was actually pretty considerate and selfless.

[Calibandar]

In restrospect it's just clear though that George needed to remove Aemon and his sage advise from the picture, in order for Jon to fall.

[Whatever]

He sent away Aemon b/c he was afraid that someone (ahem) was going to get the bright idea to burn him b/c he's the blood of a king. He was trying to protect the old man's life. He did it out of love, and he wishes he hadn't had to b/c he desperately needed Aemon's advice. I don't think this was a bad decision. It was actually pretty considerate and selfless.

No, it was stupid. Jon was overthinking - mel wouldn't have burn the MAESTER of the night's watch. At least, he could have waited to see how the evolution of the situation before sending him away. He could have used aemon, and he wouldn't have ended up with a knife in his belly

[kg1982]

No, it was stupid. Jon was overthinking - mel wouldn't have burn the MAESTER of the night's watch. At least, he could have waited to see how the evolution of the situation before sending him away. He could have used aemon, and he wouldn't have ended up with a knife in his belly

Before ADWD came out, I thought that Jon was actually going to end up getting on Melisandre's wrong side or have to flee the Wall when Robb's letter making him King in the North finally got to the Wall (king's blood). I don't think that anyone actually thought that Mel would consider Jon to be an important ally and vital piece in the war between the AA and the Great Other (although not getting that Snow was the Azor Ahai was quite a facepalm moment) or that she'd actually warn him against any danger. Around ASOS and AFFC, it seemed like a good idea to get any drop of king's blood away from the crazy sorceress who liked burning people.

[Tagganaro]

No, it was stupid. Jon was overthinking - mel wouldn't have burn the MAESTER of the night's watch. At least, he could have waited to see how the evolution of the situation before sending him away. He could have used aemon, and he wouldn't have ended up with a knife in his belly

It's too easy to say this now that we have had a Mel POV chapter. But I don't blame Jon for thinking about it- We know Mel was perfectly willing to burn an innocent kid so what would stop her from burning an elderly man who's about to die anyway?

I actually agree that it was a dumb move to send Aemon away, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

I felt like Jon was forced into most of his "dumb" decisions by circumstance, but that still doesn't excuse his utter tone-deafness to the thoughts of people around him. He should have tried to understand where Bowen Marsh, etc. were coming from. He should have tried harder to allay their fears, to calm them down and try to explain why he was doing what he was doing. Instead, Jon got all defensive and aggressive whenever Marsh brought up a fear or problem, or just attacked him for being an idiot.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

It's too easy to say this now that we have had a Mel POV chapter. But I don't blame Jon for thinking about it- We know Mel was perfectly willing to burn an innocent kid so what would stop her from burning an elderly man who's about to die anyway?

I actually agree that it was a dumb move to send Aemon away, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

I think that sending off Aemon was not that stupid. If Aemon had survived, he would have gotten Sam settled in the Citadel, and met Marwyn himself. And he could have provided a lot more information than Sam managed to convey. I would have been very surprised if Stannis were to have Mance's babe or Aemon burnt alive, but Melisandre? I wouldn't put it past her. Then again she has not yet burnt anyone without Stannis' consent. And in any case, Jon didn't know either of them very well at the time.

It was more sending off all his friends and loyal companions in his third chapter that got me frustrated. And also being a dick to all of them first. And working very hard to distance every other person he met in the name of... what? Establishing authority? Jon should have followed his father's example, and gotten to know the men who served him, not pushed them away. Eddard used to dine with a different man every week, as Arya recalls. Jon should have kept more loyal men than just Satin around to guard him. And of course sending away Ghost was just the cherry on top of that.

[Lannes]

Theon's arc jumped up and surprised the hell out of me and it is now my favorite current arc. I would have NEVER predicted that. Once again, hats off to GRRM. :thumbsup: