The Citadel and some conspiracy theory...

[bianca]

I love conspiracy theories and I've been brooding a lot about this since the end of AFFC.

It seems to me that we've been hinted very often about how the maesters are somewhat responsible for all the mess that Westeros is under right now. I'll try to give some evidence:

1 - Grand Maester Pycelle and his involvement with the Lannisters.

We know that Pycelle was responsible for opening King's Landing for Tywin to sack it, and that he's been informing Cersei on pretty much anything he can. Why would he do that? There's no mention on his heritage and whether he is a Lannister or some of their bannerman, but it seems more likely to me that he was basically plotting to bring down the Targaryens. Was it just to defend the realm from their madness?

2 - All maesters repeatedly state that there is no magic, and if there's ever been, it no longer exists.

This seems to be pretty odd for the one group that is supposed to have studied at least a lot of history. It grows odder when it comes to Maester Luwin, who claims to have studied magic in the Citadel, saying that magic doesn't exist.

3 - Maester Aemon "exile" in the Wall.

A man that's a piece of history himself in a place that apparently has one of the best libraries in the world and both are entirely neglected by the Citadel.

4 - Archmaester Marwyn.

Marwyn pretty much gives away my entire theory. He tells Sam that his story about the Others and the wights and Maester Aemon believing Dany is the Prince that was Promised is bound to get him killed at the Citadel. But the line that sums this all up (and that really gave me the chills) was this one:

“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons."

5 - Lady Dustin.

This one is from ADWD, and I was glad to see that GRRM didn't just let all those revelations from Marwyn lingering alone (though I would have loved some Sam in the Citadel chapters, but we can't have it all)

Lady Dustin, through all her grudge for never being alowed to become a Stark, states to Theon that a maester was responsible for giving Lord Rickard the "Tully marriage" idea. If we think the maesters were trying all along to end the Targaryen dinasty, this one was some sort of first step to building one of the biggest armies in Westeros: the North and the Riverlands!

I'm new to this forum, so maybe this was discussed before and I'm not aware. But if it wasn't, I would love to see your opinion about this. Is it possible? Or am I going too far?

[Hasfast]

Maesters are like grey birds who whisper in the ears of all the great lords, with the exception of Lord Tywin, whom we never see with a maester by his side for some reason. It is possible that they're all privy to some great plot to control the Seven Kingdoms. It is possible that some of them (Like Luwin, in my opinion) are just well-intentioned and have believed too many lies.

What we know about the maesters: They know... they know... and they know. They're like the benedictine monks of Westeros. They're well versed in both healing and poisons. They must know at least certain magic, and also (Most importantly) they personally manipulate all the flow of information within the Kingdoms.

We also know of at least three maesters chunned for their fascination with the occult: Qyburn, Haldon Halfmaester and Marwyn himself. Magic is power, and if they really want to build some sort of hegemonic control over what people know and ignore, then certainly they would like this power not to be within reach of others. I think their plot, however, is doomed. For what we have seen, magic finds its way, and now, with the rebirth of dragons, there's no stopping prophecy and powerful spells to come back from slumber.

What could be intriguing is... If maesters are responsible for the near extermination of dragons... are they aware of the Others? do they chun that as a myth as well? are they going to be trapped in their own webs? D.R.

[Daughter of Dragons]

First I'd like to say welcome to the board, bianca! I'm glad that you have joined us.

I love conspiracy theories and I've been brooding a lot about this since the end of AFFC.

It seems to me that we've been hinted very often about how the maesters are somewhat responsible for all the mess that Westeros is under right now. I'll try to give some evidence:

I think that there is a great possibility that they, as a group, are intimately involved in the inner workings of the kingdom.

If they wanted to sway the people of Westeros into rebellion or ushering along a different type of society then this would be the perfect way to do that.

You gave great examples of this fact, especially with the maester's views on magic and also that of the dragons.

The Citadel seems to have another deep-seeded reason why they have strategically placed their own into places of power through out the kingdom, I fear.

Hasfast is right about the fact that they haven't been able to stop the magic. They evidentally will not be able to do that, especially since the dragons exist again.

No amount of planning can totally fact in the unknown and I believe that the Citadel has not factored in The Others.

In the end I think that we will learn that he maesters had some kind of plan for what ever they meant to accomplish, but the arrival of The Others will set off a chain of

reactions that no one at the Citadel had anticipated.

I really believe that they fit into this somewhere down the line and for all their whispers and secrets they will not bring an end to all the things they meant to.

[Shaggydog Stark]

4 - Archmaester Marwyn.

Marwyn pretty much gives away my entire theory. He tells Sam that he's story about the Other and the wights and Maester Aemon believing Dany is the Prince that was Promised is bound to get him killed at the Citadel. But the line that sums this all up (and that really gave me the chills) was this one:

“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons."

Marwyn's statement here convinced me there was something fishy going on the first time I read it. Throughout the books we read that towards the end, the dragons were misformed and stunted and the impression we were given was because they were kept in the dragon pit and that had somehow caused their deformity. But what if they were poisoned and gradually culled?

In our world the maesters would be the scientists. We all know how scientists reject anything outside the realm of science. By killing off the dragons they would be rid of magic, since the two seem to be connected somehow. By getting rid of magic they would become the most powerful institution because of their knowledge and thus rule from behind the scenes.

I also think that the very threat of dragons was why they may have tried to get rid of the Targaryens. The Targaryens were constantly trying to revive/bring back dragons (Summerhall, etc.) which must have worried the citadel to no end if they were behind their demise in the first place.

So yeah, I have to say, I agree with your theory. There is much more to this and I hate the fact that they give up their family names when they join the Citadel. I am sure that giving up their names is also somehow related to this theory.

Welcome to the site btw :)

[Daughter of Dragons]

Marwyn's statement here convinced me there was something fishy going on the first time I read it. Throughout the books we read that towards the end, the dragons were misformed and stunted and the impression we were given was because they were kept in the dragon pit and that had somehow caused their deformity. But what if they were poisoned and gradually culled?

In our world the maesters would be the scientists. We all know how scientists reject anything outside the realm of science. By killing off the dragons they would be rid of magic, since the two seem to be connected somehow. By getting rid of magic they would become the most powerful institution because of their knowledge and thus rule from behind the scenes.

I also think that the very threat of dragons was why they may have tried to get rid of the Targaryens. The Targaryens were constantly trying to revive/bring back dragons (Summerhall, etc.) which must have worried the citadel to no end if they were behind their demise in the first place.

So yeah, I have to say, I agree with your theory. There is much more to this and I hate the fact that they give up their family names when they join the Citadel. I am sure that giving up their names is also somehow related to this theory.

Welcome to the site btw :)

I totally agree with you on this. This theory would explain why they wanted the Targaryens unseated from the Iron Throne.

The maesters profess themselves to be the most knowledgable people of their time and the dragons still held a lot of the "unknown" for them.

This animosity towards magic could also be rooted in the unknown for them.

I like the analogy to scientists as well. They were most definately our modern-day equal to scientists. Constantly trying to puzzle out the "mysteries of the universe".

Knowledge is power after all and I suppose that is what they could have wanted.

The Targaryens, for some time, had the advantage because they could tame the dragons. No dragons and therefore no Targaryens might have looked good to them.

I think that they probably did slowly poison the dragons over time. The rest of the work was to divide and conqueor and that was achieved by placing various members

of their organization among those people of high enough ranking to influence political outcomes.

Hopefully I'm not too far off base with this!

[bianca]

First of all, I'd like to thank everybody for your great thoughts and all your welcoming words! :)

And also please forgive me for my poor English, I am only a Brazilian who's trying to reach way to far on her language skills.

What we know about the maesters: They know... they know... and they know. They're like the benedictine monks of Westeros. They're well versed in both healing and poisons. They must know at least certain magic, and also (Most importantly) they personally manipulate all the flow of information within the Kingdoms.

What could be intriguing is... If maesters are responsible for the near extermination of dragons... are they aware of the Others? do they chun that as a myth as well? are they going to be trapped in their own webs? D.R.

Hasfast, I entirely agree with you. I think it is really interesting that you compare the maesters to the benedictine monks, since, despite all the obvious similarities, the maesters don't have the religious conotation of the benedictines. That leads us to the fact that most of the magic in GRRM's world is conected to some religious system (especially the old gods and the Lord of Light). The maesters don't seem to endorse any religious system, but they also don't present an atheistic view of the world. Seeing how, if Dany is indeed the Prince that was Promised, she will be a messianic figure to the fire priests, will the maesters then oppose to her in a religious manner, maybe through an alliance to the Faith?

I don't think that maesters, or at least the Archmaesters, truly believe magic doesn't exist. They seem to be trying to extinguish it, so if they are fighting it, they definetely believe in it. Now, concerning the Others, they might be thinking themselves too well protected by the Wall, or maybe just aren't measuring the danger properly (in a similar way to the ressurgeance of dragons).

Marwyn's statement here convinced me there was something fishy going on the first time I read it. Throughout the books we read that towards the end, the dragons were misformed and stunted and the impression we were given was because they were kept in the dragon pit and that had somehow caused their deformity. But what if they were poisoned and gradually culled?

I also think that the very threat of dragons was why they may have tried to get rid of the Targaryens. The Targaryens were constantly trying to revive/bring back dragons (Summerhall, etc.) which must have worried the citadel to no end if they were behind their demise in the first place.

Shaggydog Stark, I think you really hit a point here about poisoning being the way the maesters might have exterminated the dragons, even though the science in GRRM's world might not correspond entirely to that in ours, growing up in a dragonpit seems a very poor explanation for what happened to them.

I somehow think that there might be more to this plot than just bringing dragons to extinction. The Targaryen family themselves seem to be highly connected to magic, especially for their valyrian descendence.

I totally agree with you on this. This theory would explain why they wanted the Targaryens unseated from the Iron Throne.

The maesters profess themselves to be the most knowledgable people of their time and the dragons still held a lot of the "unknown" for them.

This animosity towards magic could also be rooted in the unknown for them.

I like the analogy to scientists as well. They were most definately our modern-day equal to scientists. Constantly trying to puzzle out the "mysteries of the universe".

Knowledge is power after all and I suppose that is what they could have wanted.

The Targaryens, for some time, had the advantage because they could tame the dragons. No dragons and therefore no Targaryens might have looked good to them.

I think that they probably did slowly poison the dragons over time. The rest of the work was to divide and conqueor and that was achieved by placing various members

of their organization among those people of high enough ranking to influence political outcomes.

Hopefully I'm not too far off base with this!

Daughter of Dragons, even though I have a taste for conspiracy theories, I think we're quite on base with this! The maesters seem to be working in two fronts: trying to eliminate magic on one side and infiltrating informers and counselors on the other.

Something else I find quite interesting in Marwyn's line is the "world the Citadel is building" bit. That implies the Citadel is not only trying to control the Seven Kingdoms politically but also mold the entire country's worldview. He also says that this world the Citadel is building has no place in it for prophecies (among other magical stuff). That got me thinking that maybe there has been a prophecy so dark (maybe about the downfall of the Citadel?) the maesters are now trying to prevent it from happening by eliminating all the magic in the world.

[Taelorn]

Great theory.

I too thought that there was something more sinister with Archmaester Marwyn saying that to Sam. it definitely lends itself to the maesters trying to pull the strings behind the scenes and be the puppet masters.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I totally agree with you on this. This theory would explain why they wanted the Targaryens unseated from the Iron Throne.

The maesters profess themselves to be the most knowledgable people of their time and the dragons still held a lot of the "unknown" for them.

This animosity towards magic could also be rooted in the unknown for them.

I like the analogy to scientists as well. They were most definately our modern-day equal to scientists. Constantly trying to puzzle out the "mysteries of the universe".

Knowledge is power after all and I suppose that is what they could have wanted.

The Targaryens, for some time, had the advantage because they could tame the dragons. No dragons and therefore no Targaryens might have looked good to them.

I think that they probably did slowly poison the dragons over time. The rest of the work was to divide and conqueor and that was achieved by placing various members

of their organization among those people of high enough ranking to influence political outcomes.

Hopefully I'm not too far off base with this!

I agree with Bianca, I do not think you are off base here. I think there is a lot of truth to your reasoning. I would like to add a further point to your argument that I believe will lend it further weight. We know that the only flow of information from one place to another is also controlled by the maesters, mainly the use of ravens. Since they control the flow of information, they can filter it, and thus only supply what is advantageous to the Citadel. By supplying the information they want to the recipients who are mainly people in positions of power, they can shape and influence many of the decisions taken.

Something else I find quite interesting in Marwyn's line is the "world the Citadel is building" bit. That implies the Citadel is not only trying to control the Seven Kingdoms politically but also mold the entire country's worldview. He also says that this world the Citadel is building has no place in it for prophecies (among other magical stuff). That got me thinking that maybe there has been a prophecy so dark (maybe about the downfall of the Citadel?) the maesters are now trying to prevent it from happening by eliminating all the magic in the world.

This is a very interesting theory and could prove to be true. There had to be some initial reason that instigated this whole idea/plan.

[Hasfast]

It's too well-based to turn out untrue. We also know something interesting... Marwyn himself taught Mirri Maz Durr part of her knowledge, so he's indirectly (?) involved with the birth of Dany's dragons. He struck me as a conspiracy theorist, a bit paranoid... but I suspect there's much truth in what he says, and the fact that he tells it to Samwell... well... he must know about what the Wall's up against. Alleras seems a promising character too... the most brilliant acolyte, maybe an apprentice of Marwyn? And Pate, who we know not to be Pate but the Alchemist (Most probably a face used by the Faceless we identify as Jaqen H'Ghar)... in the possession of one of the skull keys to open... what? A secret level of the Citadel's library? a vault with grimoires of powerful and hidden magic? the prison of a single dragon kept for the maester's academic and perhaps more obscure purposes? All of them?

Somehow this topic made me wish even more for whatever Sam's up to in TWoW! D.R.

[Hasfast]

I'd like to make a topic stand out now

The Sphinx is the Riddle, not the Riddler

The important thing about this topic are Aemon's cryptic words to Sam in the voyage to the Citadel, and then Sam's meeting Alleras (AKA the Sphinx), whom quite a few people think is none else than Sarella Sand, one of the Sand Snakes of Dorne.

EDIT: Hmmm, reading through that topic I just posted, I find an interesting and also possible outcome might be sought after by the maesters... The Sphinxes are as symbol of Old Valyria. Maybe the denizens of the Citadel see themselves as the true heirs of all valyrian lore, safekeepers of its ancient power... they might have thought the Targaryens were simply misusing the might of dragons, so they plotted to remove them. Perhaps they're not seeking to destroy magic, as Marwyn seems to think... but actually hoard it and rise as a new empire of sorcerer lords. D.R.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I'd like to make a topic stand out now

The Sphinx is the Riddle, not the Riddler

The important thing about this topic are Aemon's cryptic words to Sam in the voyage to the Citadel, and then Sam's meeting Alleras (AKA the Sphinx), whom quite a few people think is none else than Sarella Sand, one of the Sand Snakes of Dorne.

EDIT: Hmmm, reading through that topic I just posted, I find an interesting and also possible outcome might be sought after by the maesters... The Sphinxes are as symbol of Old Valyria. Maybe the denizens of the Citadel see themselves as the true heirs of all valyrian lore, safekeepers of its ancient power... they might have thought the Targaryens were simply misusing the might of dragons, so they plotted to remove them. Perhaps they're not seeking to destroy magic, as Marwyn seems to think... but actually hoard it and rise as a new empire of sorcerer lords. D.R.

Thanks for the link Hasfast, I went through it all and it was really good stuff. I also like your last thought. My one problem with it is that I am pretty convinced that the Citadel was behind the demise of the dragons. We know that there is no sorcery without dragons in the world. At the beginning of the books before the birth of Dany's dragons magic/sorcery was obsolete so how could they be hoarding the magic without dragons? Magic only came back into the world after the birth of Dany's dragons....hmmmmm....actually now that I think of it, it was after the birth of the direwolves that magic was restored and it only became stronger after the birth of Dany's dragons. Are the direwolves connected to magic somehow like the dragons?

Sorry I know I am completely off topic now. :)

[Hasfast]

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of the Direwolves as harbingers of magic (At least the Winter magic... the "Ice" part of the Song), but it IS valid. Maester Luwin always seemed in discomfort when the direwolves were around. Was he not the one to suggest that the direwolves be kept in the Godswood while the Walders were in Winterfell? Mind you, I took a liking of the old man and he died for Bran and Rickon. He died for Winterfell, and to me, that overrides any possibility of his plotting things for the best interest of the Citadel.

So yes, if the maesters were responsible for the downfall of dragons, then they couldn't have wanted magic to survive. They would still dominate the world, being as they were and are, keepers of history, sciences and information. D.R.

[Spearwife262]

2 - All maesters repeatedly state that there is no magic, and if there's ever been, it no longer exists.

This seems to be pretty odd for the one group that is supposed to have studied at least a lot of history. It grows odder when it comes to Maester Luwin, who claims to have studied magic in the Citadel, saying that magic doesn't exist.

So far as this matter is concerned, I believe he's just one of the voices that slow down the introduction of magic into the novels. There are hints that magic is back- things like the alchmist told Thyrion when he came to their guild to see how is the manufacturiong of wildfire going. And there is also the street performer that suddenly gains much more powers after the dragon eggs have hatched. Then again, maesters want you to believe that magic never truly existed.

To be honest, this is one of the things I just love about GRRM; he doesn't throw you into the world of magic and expect you to understand it, nor there is some kind of Pandora's box that is opened and all of the magic rushes into the story all at once. He give's you time to doubt, to wonder, and you're never sure what will happen next-will all the magic break loose or will it dye forewer?

[Hasfast]

Yeah, he does introduce Magic slowly, elegantly and mysteriously. Magic here is also quite subtle. Only after Clash of Kings do we see increasingly epic displays of powerful magic. Dany has been so far the closest to the arcane, as Jon and Samwell have been closest to true horror.

I should suspect that TWoW will bring extremely mighty magic. D.R.

[Taelorn]

Thanks for the link Hasfast, I went through it all and it was really good stuff. I also like your last thought. My one problem with it is that I am pretty convinced that the Citadel was behind the demise of the dragons. We know that there is no sorcery without dragons in the world. At the beginning of the books before the birth of Dany's dragons magic/sorcery was obsolete so how could they be hoarding the magic without dragons? Magic only came back into the world after the birth of Dany's dragons....hmmmmm....actually now that I think of it, it was after the birth of the direwolves that magic was restored and it only became stronger after the birth of Dany's dragons. Are the direwolves connected to magic somehow like the dragons?

Sorry I know I am completely off topic now. :)

Could it be they brought those specific dragons down because they were corrupted by misguided Targs? If they could get their hands on dragons early enough they may be able to control them to their bidding.

[Hasfast]

Very likely. They don't seem to be in the possession of a dragon egg thus far, though... or if they are, they don't seem bent on hatching it as of now. Winter might change their minds, though, xDDD. D.R.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of the Direwolves as harbingers of magic (At least the Winter magic... the "Ice" part of the Song), but it IS valid. Maester Luwin always seemed in discomfort when the direwolves were around. Was he not the one to suggest that the direwolves be kept in the Godswood while the Walders were in Winterfell? Mind you, I took a liking of the old man and he died for Bran and Rickon. He died for Winterfell, and to me, that overrides any possibility of his plotting things for the best interest of the Citadel.

So yes, if the maesters were responsible for the downfall of dragons, then they couldn't have wanted magic to survive. They would still dominate the world, being as they were and are, keepers of history, sciences and information. D.R.

Here is another thought I just had...the direwolves were not extinct beyond the Wall, just south of the Wall. So if "ice" magic (for the lack of a better term) returned with the return of direwolves south of the Wall, that would mean magic never faded away beyond the Wall. I wonder if the Wall somehow prevents the effects of the animals linked to magic as well as the Others/wights, wildlings. For instance, if dragons had existed beyond the wall, would the Wall still cause "fire" magic to fade away this side of the Wall? The Wall does prevent magic since it was built by Bran the Builder, like Storm's End, but I hadn't thought it prevented the effects of the animals linked to it as well.

I agree about Luwin, I do not think everyone in the Citadel is "in the know". I think the "grey sheep" that Marwyn refers to are the Archmaesters who command the other maesters. The other maesters obey out of obedience more than understanding. However, they have been brainwashed to a certain extent at the Citadel. Maester Luwin was very anti-magic for instance.

Could it be they brought those specific dragons down because they were corrupted by misguided Targs? If they could get their hands on dragons early enough they may be able to control them to their bidding.

I think you are referring to Dany's dragons. I am not so sure about that.

ADWD spoiler:

Dany seems to be having a really hard time controlling her dragons. If you mean Victarion's horn, then maybe but we still haven't seen Victarion use it, so we don't know how effective it really is.

If they do manage to control some dragon then yes I definitely think they would keep it and maybe use the magic. So Hasfast's theory could work. But there are too many "ifs" with the dragon part of the theory so probably not really likely. Personally, I think that they did not like the Targs/dragons/magic because they did not have any control over events with them around. If they were aiming to build a new world shaped to their ideals it wouldn't work with them around. Get rid of the dragons and first magic fades away and then so do the Targs eventually.

[bianca]

I do believe the Citadel is against magic in general, and was likely against the Targaryen because of their link to magic. I also think not every maester is fully aware of this plotting, being merely used by the "grey sheep" as informers and also working in educating the nobility (an thus the smallfolk) into thinking in a way that is properly aligned with their worldview.

I really enjoyed reading the topic indicated by Hasfast. It got me thinking about the origins of the maesters and their order. We tend to think of them as an Andal institution, but they do show the Valyrian sphinxes and now I'd like to throw a new spice to the mixture: the house Hightower.

Here is what we know about them:

- they are one of the oldest houses from Westeros, dating back from the Dawn of Days, therefore being descendants to the First Men;

- to this day, they are one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, despite being vassals to the Tyrells;

- they never took part in any known war, never even fighting the Andal's invasion;

- they were integral in the foundation of the Citadel and continue to be patrons of both the Citadel and the Faith.

Hypothesis:

- The Citadel is somehow an institution with First Men (and maybe children of the forest) wisdom? (it seems unlikely, given their view on magic);

- The Citadel is a mean to an end, this being house Hightower part on the game of thrones: trying to control Westeros through the maesters;

Yeah, you see, I am really sort of paranoid. But I like it.

[Tini]

Maybe the explanation is much more boring than that.

Every maester must forge his chain from links he is granted/forges after examination in different disciplines. But a maester does not have to forge links in all disciplines that are offered at the citadel. Pate mentions a maester who has a chain that holds no link made from Valyrian steel, and who despises magic. I guess that would be the link offered by Archmaester Marwyn in arcane studies.

Marwyn is proof that the study of magic in the citadel is not dead yet, but most Archmaesters think that his particular discipline should be abandoned. If magic was dead for several generations, I can see why maesters at the citadel would start considering its study a waste of time, and discourage students from learning it. Maesters who built their reputation on the non-existence of magic won't be pleased to find the ground shifting under their feet suddenly. Not only is their world-view wrong, but they are lacking knowledge in a powerful discipline.

Marwyn may be right about a conspiracy at the Citadel. Or he might just want to prevent Sam sharing his story with other maesters. I wonder what counsel he'll give Daenerys. I think he'll be trying to manipulate her for his own purposes, but I have no idea for what they are.

[Cold Mist]

Spoilers for anyone who hasn't read ADWD...

Please humor another n00b, but I have had a theory that Satin, the lord commander's steward, is in actuality the 'perfumed seneschal' foretold in Quaithe's prophecy (I can explain my take on that, but would prefer not to hijack this thread).

That he is a plant by the Citadel to keep abreast with happenings on the wall and possibly some sort of assassin as well, if you believe what Marwyn says.

Obviously 'seneschal' is translated to mean 'steward', and there is a passing, almost casual mention in one of Jon's early chapters about how the former Oldtown pillow boy is despised by his black brothers for the rose water that he dabs on himself daily. He was very present among the conspirators at the end of the book before Jon is 'killed'.

Hare-brained, I know, but that is what GRRM has done to this faithful reader.