Most cowardly character(s) of the series?

[1000 Needles]

How is it that 8 pages have gone by and nobody has mentioned Bowen Marsh? That sniveling backstabber whines in every scene he's in in ADwD, and betrays the commander out of fear. He refuses to face the fact that the night watch MUST change the way it's always done things because the the situation with the others has changed.

I'd also like to give an honorable mention to Lommy Greenhands and "All for Joffrey".

[Serie]

In taking down Aerys? The only one who was close was Jaime and he was a glorified hostage. And there is nothing in the books about plots and schemes by Tywin until he showes up at King's Landing.

agreed, what I mean by plotting is that he used his children (in a way) to carry out his ambitions by raising them in a certain, "Lannister" way. And he came out on top eventually because he married Cercei to Robert, because he kept his strength (army and wealth) unspoiled by not fighting Aerys and because he was patient enough. For me he could forsee and make plans that required minimum cost. Still this is a personal opinion and while one person could call that wisdom another could call it cowardness.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

How is it that 8 pages have gone by and nobody has mentioned Bowen Marsh? That sniveling backstabber whines in every scene he's in in ADwD, and betrays the commander out of fear. He refuses to face the fact that the night watch MUST change the way it's always done things because the the situation with the others has changed.

Fear of change, yes. On the other hand, though, I guess he must be aware that things might go very badly for him very soon, and yet he delivers, so to speak. But his fear of change is definitely one of the prime motivators for the stabbing.

Much as I like Sam (and I really do) I don't think that telling everyone that, "hey, I'm a coward," is an act of bravery, as I saw someone suggest. He declares what he is because he fears he will disappoint otherwise. But, IMO he's braver than he gives himself credit for.

An interesting case of cowardice is what we get in most of the Theon chapters. That was also a really interesting (and painful) read.

[Serie]

Much as I like Sam (and I really do) I don't think that telling everyone that, "hey, I'm a coward," is an act of bravery, as I saw someone suggest. He declares what he is because he fears he will disappoint otherwise. But, IMO he's braver than he gives himself credit for.

that should be me. You know, now that I read that from your point of view, I feel stronger about what I said! Isn't it weird? Sam's confession might seem as an easy way out, no arguing there. Revealing yourself and deepest fears to a bunch of strangers, and while your own father has dissaproved of such an attitude, is admirable and even brave to me. Sam is like the cowardly Lion in Land of Oz. He (as well as the Lion) believes his fear is a deffect while he doesn't understand how brave he has been throughout the story.

However I think that this, lets say, disagreement is due to different life experiences and fears so there is no point in trying to convince you or anything. Words are wind :)

An interesting case of cowardice is what we get in most of the Theon chapters. That was also a really interesting (and painful) read.

Now that is a nice point! so is Theon a coward? I would call him "brain washed" but then again I can't make up my mind there!

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

How is it that 8 pages have gone by and nobody has mentioned Bowen Marsh? That sniveling backstabber whines in every scene he's in in ADwD, and betrays the commander out of fear. He refuses to face the fact that the night watch MUST change the way it's always done things because the the situation with the others has changed.

Bowen stood up for what he (incorrectly) thought was right. A coward would have sent assassins after Jon - he stabbed Jon himself. And Marsh's "fears" were not unjustified. He really believed that Jon was about to completely ruin the Watch and he had pretty good standing for thinking that. It's not about the Wildings, it's about Jon getting the Watch getting involved in a Southern War.

Anyway, Bowen Marsh isn't a coward. He's wrong, narrow-minded, and bigoted. But he took extreme action at personal risk to prevent what he saw as a catastrophe. He may pay for it with his life, too. Do we really think that Jon's wilding friends are going to leave Marsh unpunished?

[Ojji]

Bowen stood up for what he (incorrectly) thought was right. A coward would have sent assassins after Jon - he stabbed Jon himself. And Marsh's "fears" were not unjustified. He really believed that Jon was about to completely ruin the Watch and he had pretty good standing for thinking that. It's not about the Wildings, it's about Jon getting the Watch getting involved in a Southern War.

Anyway, Bowen Marsh isn't a coward. He's wrong, narrow-minded, and bigoted. But he took extreme action at personal risk to prevent what he saw as a catastrophe. He may pay for it with his life, too. Do we really think that Jon's wilding friends are going to leave Marsh unpunished?

Agreed. He did it "For the Watch!"

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

that should be me. You know, now that I read that from your point of view, I feel stronger about what I said! Isn't it weird? Sam's confession might seem as an easy way out, no arguing there. Revealing yourself and deepest fears to a bunch of strangers, and while your own father has dissaproved of such an attitude, is admirable and even brave to me. Sam is like the cowardly Lion in Land of Oz. He (as well as the Lion) believes his fear is a deffect while he doesn't understand how brave he has been throughout the story.

However I think that this, lets say, disagreement is due to different life experiences and fears so there is no point in trying to convince you or anything. Words are wind :)

Well, you did sort of "convince me," in a sense. In Sam's case, not so much, although that's just my subjective take on it, naturally. But, my last post made it seem like a general thing, which is wrong. I do think that openly stating some personal weakness or flaw can be a courageous thing.

Now that is a nice point! so is Theon a coward? I would call him "brain washed" but then again I can't make up my mind there!

Well, cowardice might not be the best description --- he's a broken thing. But I thought his story in ADWD made for a nice example of Ned telling Bran that "[when a man is afraid, that is] the only time he can be brave" (paraphasing).

ETA: In the sense that he acted courageously at the end, I mean.

[Skeksi]

Joffrey and Boros Blount are the immediate examples that jump to mind. Snarking Tywin was about the only "brave" thing Joffrey's ever done, and I would have put that more down to Joffrey being stupid and arrogant, and perhaps knowing that his grandfather wants his grandson on the throne regardless of whether he likes him or not. Can't think of any examples for Boros Blount at all.

Someone mentioned Marillion, and I definitely think he's worth a mention, yeah. Janos Slynt, too.

I would disagree with labelling Littlefinger as a coward (surprise, surprise :P)- I would by no means label him as one of the most courageous men in the series, no, but I don't think he's a coward, as such. He DOES take risks, relying on his wits and his manipulative abilities to get him through. His life WOULD be in danger if he was found out- he faced down the Lords Declarant and came out with his full power remaining for another year, and uses this time to begin getting onto friendlier terms with them, to keep his power longer. Had it not gone according to plan, he might well have found himself dead or imprisoned, if he were a coward, the safest thing to do for him would be to acquiesce to their demands and run back to King's Landing, where he's pretty much got a guaranteed position, or to the Riverlands, at least for a time.

Let's be honest, Littlefinger is no warrior. He's not going to be plunging into a horde of attackers waving weaponry. But that doesn't mean he takes no personal risks. He's out for himself, more specifically getting power for himself, and, lacking an army or family connections to do that, he has to stay under the radar, something that wouldn't be accomplished by making outward shows of courageousness when confronting his enemies. Varys, too. They might not fight, but they take risks.

[Evamitchelle]

Still not making a point about him being brave. Power and the acquisition of power has nothing to do with bravery. He always played it safe and was forced into action only when his precious reputation was threatened. In the word of Chella of the Ston Crows (I think) "Only cowards kill the vanquished".

You make it sound as if the only way to show bravery is by being stupid. A calculated risk can be smart indeed, but despite the fact that we don't know much of Tywin's life between Robert's Rebellion and GoT to tell if he took any risks or not, it's obvious that whatever decisions Tywin made in that time were the smart one as the Lannisters are the richest and most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms. It's a pretty obvious indication that Tywin made the smart decisions, risky or not. Besides, why would he threaten his position by doing anything when his interests aren't at risk ? Staying out of a war that doesn't concern him directly isn't cowardly (Dorne and the Vale stayed out of the War of the 5 Kings, much to their benefits, while most of the other kingdoms are ravaged just before winter).

In taking down Aerys? The only one who was close was Jaime and he was a glorified hostage. And there is nothing in the books about plots and schemes by Tywin until he showes up at King's Landing.

Actually we do hear of some of his plots before his appearance in ASoS. He schemed to lure Ned into the Riverlands and have him killed there by sending Gregor Clegane and his men, only Jaime's surprise attack of Ned in KG spoiled that plot in GoT for example. He brought the Tarbecks and Reynes down when he was 20 years old, he stopped a rebellion on Fair Isle before it even began by sending a song, he managed to arrange a royal wedding for his daughter and get himself accepted int Robert's new rule despite not contributing to the Rebellion much etc. That's a fair amount of plotting for a man we only see continuously in one book out of five.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

... Janos Slynt, too.

I would disagree with labelling Littlefinger as a coward (surprise, surprise :P)- I would by no means label him as one of the most courageous men in the series, no, but I don't think he's a coward, as such. He DOES take risks, relying on his wits and his manipulative abilities to get him through. His life WOULD be in danger if he was found out-

Hmm.... I think it's interesting that you think Littlefinger is not a coward but Slynt is. Both of these men are political opportunists, who pretty much do nothing but take advantage of where the political winds are currently blowing. Littlefinger is much smarter, and far more capable of directing those winds. Other than that difference in ability, I'd say they are pretty similar in how they make decisions. For example, yes, Slynt went with who he thought would be the winner (Cersei) over who he thought would be the loser (Ned). But that was the same with Littlefinger, and boht of them risked being wrong and paying the ultimate consequence.

...Also, as far as I know, Slynt hasn't sold any 13 year old girls into prostitution and marraige to serial killers (not that I'd put it past him).

LF is much more well fleshed out, of course... and we have the opportunity to see him do a lot more. But I'd say he's always taken what he perceives to be the least-risky path that gets him ahead.

[House Martell]

Now that is a nice point! so is Theon a coward? I would call him "brain washed" but then again I can't make up my mind there!

Theon prob not, but Reek is a coward

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

Theon prob not, but Reek is a coward

True. Theon was not a coward as Theon, but he was as Reek; though, not in his last one or two chapters as Reek.....

Also a coward? Jorah Mormont, in a way...... Though I still like the grumpy bear....

[Catastrophe]

Hot Pie

[headtrip_honey]

True. Theon was not a coward as Theon, but he was as Reek; though, not in his last one or two chapters as Reek.....

Also a coward? Jorah Mormont, in a way...... Though I still like the grumpy bear....

I'd say exactly the opposite - Theon was more cowardly as Theon, but after his time as Reek, he began to gain courage and care for others besides himself.

[House Martell]

I'd say exactly the opposite - Theon was more cowardly as Theon, but after his time as Reek, he began to gain courage and care for others besides himself.

I think it wasn't until Reek regained some of his "Theon-ness" that he became uncowardly again. A coward doesn't take Winterfell (an idiot, and traitor yes, but not coward). But Reek was brain washed and beaten into cowardice. I think Jeyne brings back some Theon to Reek.

[headtrip_honey]

I think it wasn't until Reek regained some of his "Theon-ness" that he became uncowardly again. A coward doesn't take Winterfell (an idiot, and traitor yes, but not coward). But Reek was brain washed and beaten into cowardice. I think Jeyne brings back some Theon to Reek.

I see some of that - but I'd say that the Theon who emerges out of Reek isn't the same Theon who killed the miller's children.

[House Martell]

Hot Pie

Hot Pie was the quintessential coward...."I yield"

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

I'd say exactly the opposite - Theon was more cowardly as Theon, but after his time as Reek, he began to gain courage and care for others besides himself.

I'd say he was certainly a coward, at least in his first few chapters as Reek. Blubbering, mumbling, begging Ramsay not to hurt him.... "Reek, it rhymes with freak..." No question that he got stronger in the end though. Saving Jeyne galvanized him. We might even (unfortunately) see some of the old assanine/arrogant Theon back. His interactions with the spearwife (Holly, I think), seemed to re-spark his impudent streak...... Too bad. I was looking forward to a new, stronger, yet more humble Theon.

[House Martell]

I see some of that - but I'd say that the Theon who emerges out of Reek isn't the same Theon who killed the miller's children.

No not the same, we're splitting hairs here. Where/when does Theon reemerge, and where does he go from here. Either way old Theon/ new Theon still the uncowardly one, Reek=total coward

[headtrip_honey]

No not the same, we're splitting hairs here. Where/when does Theon reemerge, and where does he go from here. Either way old Theon/ new Theon still the uncowardly one, Reek=total coward

Eh, and I still disagree. Not saying that Reek was brave, but more that Theon pre-Reek was cowardly. But that's how I read it. I don't see anything brave about killing two innocent children because you lost your hostages.

Now, he's not the most cowardly character by ANY stretch, and I personally wouldn't have even mentioned him in this thread. :)