Cersei, beautiful, wonderful, angry Cersei

[-montana]

Martin's full-blooded three-dimensional characters are all a wonder to behold. I am mid-point in "A Feast" and while enjoying all of the Ice & Fire characters I am becoming a lover of Cersei. Talk about multifaceted! Her emotions run the max as Regent mother of a king, lover of a brother, and daughter of a Lord; her ambition is boundless and she will do anything to see her ambitions fulfilled.

She is smart, oh so very smart but her temper gets the best of her. She gets so angry she literally jumps off the page. I can see her beautiful face about to explode. In may ways she makes me laugh and shake my head at her anger. She is, to me at least, one of Martin's great characters and I am certain many other Fire & Ice fans feel the same.

ps/ "Dance" sits on my bookcase as I have promised moi not to turn a page till I turn the last in "A Feast for Crows." Must admit however my turning page finger begins to itch every time I think of it just sitting there.

[salt]

I agree, Cersei is a great character in AFFC. We knew she was conniving and ambitious, but in this book we get to see the fire that is raging inside her head ever hour of the day. I see Cersei less as a lioness and more as a mongoose or a weasel, teeth barred and head in the air, surveying its surroundings and seeing threats behind every blade of grass.

I imagine it is tiring work being Cersei Lannister.

[the judge]

In my opinion, Cersei changed too much in AFFC.

She used to be one of those characters you'd "love to hate". I used to consider her a serious "player" in the game, despite some flaws. But now all I feel for her is pity.

Her stupidity has no limits! Every move she does in AFFC is plainly wrong... She just keeps getting into more trouble at every chapter.

[Mattyp]

AFFC definitely changes how one perceives Cersei. She is unstable as hell. You got a little inkling of her stupidity in ASOS during her arguments with Tywin, and she had to be a bit of an idiot to really think Joffery was King material.

.

Cersei is batshit crazy, but she sure is entertaining. I agree with the above comment, she sees a snake in almost every blade of grass.

[salt]

In my opinion, Cersei changed too much in AFFC.

She used to be one of those characters you'd "love to hate". I used to consider her a serious "player" in the game, despite some flaws. But now all I feel for her is pity.

Her stupidity has no limits! Every move she does in AFFC is plainly wrong... She just keeps getting into more trouble at every chapter.

I think its hard to say how much Cersei really "changed" in AFFC. She certainly proves to be an inept ruler on most counts, but this is the first time we've seen her with real power- previously she had Robert, Tyrion, and Tywin to keep her in check. Its possible that she has never really had the knack to be a "serious player" in the game of thrones. Sure, she outplayed Ned when it came to taking control of the kingdom after Robert's death, but as much as I love the guy, beating Eddard Stark at political intrigue is like beating Hot Pie in a sword fight.

If she becomes more reckless and suspicious in AFFC, that could probably be attributed to her losing Jaime as her unquestioning, loving protector. Ever since she was a child she had been able to play the "my brother will kill you" card, but that changes alot in AFFC.

[SeanF]

I think its hard to say how much Cersei really "changed" in AFFC. She certainly proves to be an inept ruler on most counts, but this is the first time we've seen her with real power- previously she had Robert, Tyrion, and Tywin to keep her in check. Its possible that she has never really had the knack to be a "serious player" in the game of thrones. Sure, she outplayed Ned when it came to taking control of the kingdom after Robert's death, but as much as I love the guy, beating Eddard Stark at political intrigue is like beating Hot Pie in a sword fight.

If she becomes more reckless and desperate in AFFC, that could probably be contributed to her losing Jaime as her unquestioning, loving protector. Ever since she was a child she had been able to play the "my brother will kill you" card, but that changes alot in AFFC.

Yes, I think that's the point. In the past, there's always been Lord Tywin (and to an extent, Ser Kevan and Tyrion) to do the long-range planning for the Lannisters. Now, they're gone, and she doesn't have that skill.I don't see her as stupid, so much as untrained for her job, lacking in integrity, and desperately fearful for her children (understandably) in a way that leads her to jump to the wrong conclusion.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I think its hard to say how much Cersei really "changed" in AFFC. She certainly proves to be an inept ruler on most counts, but this is the first time we've seen her with real power- previously she had Robert, Tyrion, and Tywin to keep her in check. Its possible that she has never really had the knack to be a "serious player" in the game of thrones. Sure, she outplayed Ned when it came to taking control of the kingdom after Robert's death, but as much as I love the guy, beating Eddard Stark at political intrigue is like beating Hot Pie in a sword fight.

If she becomes more reckless and suspicious in AFFC, that could probably be attributed to her losing Jaime as her unquestioning, loving protector. Ever since she was a child she had been able to play the "my brother will kill you" card, but that changes alot in AFFC.

Ah but was it her that beat Ned Stark or LF? Definitely LF! Had LF not turned his cloak on Ned, Cersei would probably be the one without a head on her shoulders.I find Cersei extremely stupid. She fires Barristan Selmy...very stupid imo. This is pre-AFFC, so I don't think she has changed much, we only thought she was smart because she was on the team of the best schemers in Westeros. Now that she is alone, no LF, no Varys, no Tyrion, no Tywin...well we see there is really not much to Cersei.

[Mattyp]

Everyone forgets she didn't beat Ned Stark at the Game. Sansa ruined Ned's plans by running to Cersei. If he doubted anything, it was the ability of a 13 year old girl to fall in love with the 'princess' ideal.

[Aki]

Her stupidity has no limits! Every move she does in AFFC is plainly wrong... She just keeps getting into more trouble at every chapter.

I completely agree, she just turned up to be very stupid. She does things without any real consideration, just based on the prophecy she had when she was 11, and is becoming completely paranoid about it. Instead of strengthening her position, with making compromises with Kevan Lannister and Tyrell's, she does everything she can to make them her enemies. Every plan she makes, it just backfires on her. As LF said, she kicked herself out of the game too fast.

I'm just feeling sorry for poor little Tommen, just a fat little kid, playing with his kittens, hopefully he won't be harmed in his mothers backfiring plans.

[lyvyathan]

In my opinion, Cersei changed too much in AFFC.

She used to be one of those characters you'd "love to hate". I used to consider her a serious "player" in the game, despite some flaws. But now all I feel for her is pity.

Her stupidity has no limits! Every move she does in AFFC is plainly wrong... She just keeps getting into more trouble at every chapter.

I completely agree, she just turned up to be very stupid. She does things without any real consideration, just based on the prophecy she had when she was 11, and is becoming completely paranoid about it. Instead of strengthening her position, with making compromises with Kevan Lannister and Tyrell's, she does everything she can to make them her enemies. Every plan she makes, it just backfires on her. As LF said, she kicked herself out of the game too fast.

I think its called "Victory Disease". She grew too over-confident- she had achieved all her main objectives.

1. Kill Robert Baratheon

2. Place her beloved son, Joffrey on the throne. Believe it or not there are some mothers who think that their darling boy is an angel- the axe murderer's mother syndrome. Heck there are even women who fall in love with serial murderers, go figure.

3. With Tywin dead, she's now Queen Regent.

And everything seemed to be going her way - now if she was the humble, gracious, person that she was - of course she's going to pass the praise around and listen to advice... but since she's the sort of bitch that tried to tear off her baby brother's penis each time she got pissed as a child, and threatened to cut out the tongue of those that stand in her way, eventually she's only going to surround herself with a bunch of Colonel Angus- types.

Once Tywin is killed - she is free to do whatever she wants. I've met women like that.

They think that just because they were right a few times - makes them utterly infallible.

They never learn from their experience, they think any crap idea they get into their head is the right one. And ANYONE who disagrees with ANY of their opinions or pet ideas- must hate them personally.

[lyvyathan]

Ah but was it her that beat Ned Stark or LF? Definitely LF! Had LF not turned his cloak on Ned, Cersei would probably be the one without a head on her shoulders.I find Cersei extremely stupid. She fires Barristan Selmy...very stupid imo. This is pre-AFFC, so I don't think she has changed much, we only thought she was smart because she was on the team of the best schemers in Westeros. Now that she is alone, no LF, no Varys, no Tyrion, no Tywin...well we see there is really not much to Cersei.

But didn't Sansa reveal Ned's escape plans to her?

[Weasel_Soup]

I actually think Cersie is one of the worst characters. She has such boring motivations(lack of respect for being a woman and the lover of her children) and she never sees anything clearly. For example she believes Tyrion is behind everything that goes wrong for her and believes everyone but her and her father or her handpicked lackeys are incompetant Through the first four books she is a character working from a position of extreme power and yet is constantly outmanuevered by just about everyone she doesn't somehow have at an extreme advantage over. Tyrion, for example, plays her like a fiddle when he is King's Hand. If Tyrion wasn't there King's Landing would have been sacked by Stannis period end of story if the decisions would have been made by whatever idiot Cersei would have put in charge. I don't know what Martin's intentions for Cersei were exactly but to me she is pretty much a antagonist and one of the few characters in the series I have been rooting against totally from the start. How can I root for a chacacter that isn't 1/10 as clever and capable as they think are? A clever villian you could enjoy but not Cersei.

[Shaggydog Stark]

But didn't Sansa reveal Ned's escape plans to her?

True, but that only revealed that Ned was planning to send his daughters to safety. What really turned events was who the goldcloaks sided with. Had LF been trustworthy none of Cersei's plans would have worked because in the end it was a matter of who had more arms. If the goldcloaks had been Ned's, as originally planned, Cersei would have been arrested for treason and her children held in custody. That was the one event that turned the tide. LF turned his cloak and went to Cersei devising the plan to offer Janos Slynt with a Lordship and Harrenhal to keep him loyal to Cersei. That is what really screwed Ned. Again it was all LF and not Cersei.

I really don't think she was ever smart, devious or cunning. It was always the people she teamed up with. Now that they are all gone, we see that all her plans are clumsy attempts at best. There is no long term planning, no moving pieces/pawns into place before making her move. Everything is done on a whim. I was discussing this very same issue on another thread, Unpopular opinions in the General forum. The discussion was very interesting.

[lyvyathan]

True, but that only revealed that Ned was planning to send his daughters to safety.

Yes, indeed she did - was there more that she did reveal I wonder.

What really turned events was who the goldcloaks sided with. Had LF been trustworthy none of Cersei's plans would have worked because in the end it was a matter of who had more arms. If the goldcloaks had been Ned's, as originally planned, Cersei would have been arrested for treason and her children held in custody. That was the one event that turned the tide. LF turned his cloak and went to Cersei devising the plan to offer Janos Slynt with a Lordship and Harrenhal to keep him loyal to Cersei. That is what really screwed Ned. Again it was all LF and not Cersei.

Again, we see the Long reach of LF. Amazing how

he ploted with his wife to kill Jon Arryn with the hidden agenda

to marry his wife,

Set Stark against Lannister with that letter,

Duped everyone's favorite aunt by implicating Tyrion with that dagger and setting in course the incident at the Crossroads Inn

Tricked Ned into trusting him which meant he forsaw that Ned would ask him for the Goldcloak Support

Schemed to get Sansa which he probably became infatuated with once he saw her at the Tourney.

The dude has the perfect ability of anticipation. He's like the Bobby Fisher of the Game of Thrones.

I really don't think she was ever smart, devious or cunning. It was always the people she teamed up with. Now that they are all gone, we see that all her plans are clumsy attempts at best. There is no long term planning, no moving pieces/pawns into place before making her move. Everything is done on a whim. I was discussing this very same issue on another thread, Unpopular opinions in the General forum. The discussion was very interesting.

Ever is a pretty big word there. No doubt it was her "team mates" that helped considerably. I can't think of an instance where she was smart like LF. But she was certainly devious and cunny... I mean cunning. My memory of Cersei is however somewhat tainted from the HBO version - which certainly portrayed her in a more smarter light.

Would you consider the book version of Cersei as the mirror opposite of Catelyn? Bad moron vs Good moron ?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Yes, indeed she did - was there more that she did reveal I wonder.

Well, she couldn't have revealed more because Ned didn't divulge much to his daughters except that he was sending them back to Winterfell and that he would find someone else for Sansa to marry. Unfortunately, Ned himself divulged most of his plan to Cersei. So Sansa is basically guilty of letting Cersei know when they were leaving.

Again, we see the Long reach of LF. Amazing how

he ploted with his wife to kill Jon Arryn with the hidden agenda

to marry his wife,

Set Stark against Lannister with that letter,

Duped everyone's favorite aunt by implicating Tyrion with that dagger and setting in course the incident at the Crossroads Inn

Tricked Ned into trusting him which meant he forsaw that Ned would ask him for the Goldcloak Support

Schemed to get Sansa which he probably became infatuated with once he saw her at the Tourney.

The dude has the perfect ability of anticipation. He's like the Bobby Fisher of the Game of Thrones.

Agreed! He is like a master chess player. As much as I dislike him, but I have to grudgingly admire his cunning. He is really good at what he does. He is behind most of the schemes that are jaw dropping.

Ever is a pretty big word there. No doubt it was her "team mates" that helped considerably. I can't think of an instance where she was smart like LF. But she was certainly devious and cunny... I mean cunning. My memory of Cersei is however somewhat tainted from the HBO version - which certainly portrayed her in a more smarter light.

Would you consider the book version of Cersei as the mirror opposite of Catelyn? Bad moron vs Good moron ?

Oh I don't deny that she is devious, but she is not really good at it. Her major plot/scheme which she did on her own without the help of the master schemers/players, was the murder of Robert. However, compare it to the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Ned's arrest, etc. Not on the same scale and very clumsy imo. Hope Robert gets drunk and and hope the boar shows up, hope Robert misses, hope that the boar mortally wounds him, hope that Ned does not reveal the truth to Robert on his deathbed. So many things could have gone wrong with that plan. She just got lucky imho.

she was certainly devious and cunny... I mean cunning.

:lol:

Would you consider the book version of Cersei as the mirror opposite of Catelyn? Bad moron vs Good moron ?

Actually I prefer to compare her to Ned. Now she is in exactly the same position as Ned. She is in a position of power but friendless and surrounded by enemies. We will see if she is able to play the game any better than Ned without her support system.

On a side note, she has been accused of crimes and is to be tried. Ned forwent a trial and chose to confess out of a perceived fear for Sansa's life. Cersei on the other hand is awaiting a trial in ADWD. I wonder if someone will blackmail her with Tommen's life as she blackmailed Ned with Sansa's life and I wonder how she will react. I really want someone to do that to her, just so she knows what it feels like. :devil:

[-montana]

Her stupidity has no limits! Every move she does in AFFC is plainly wrong... She just keeps getting into more trouble at every chapter.

Many of my reading friends have stated that Cersei is "stupid"... I could not disagree more. I believe she is very smart but what gets in her way (as I said in my original post) is her temper. Her fiery emotions get the best of her and because of that she makes mistakes a more circumspect person would avoid. But that is Cersei. I still believe she is one of the GREAT characters in the story.

[lyvyathan]

Well, she couldn't have revealed more because Ned didn't divulge much to his daughters except that he was sending them back to Winterfell and that he would find someone else for Sansa to marry. Unfortunately, Ned himself divulged most of his plan to Cersei. So Sansa is basically guilty of letting Cersei know when they were leaving.

Yes, Ned was really dumb for revealing his plans to Cersei without first ensuring that

1. his daughters were out of harms way

2. that he had the necessary forces to deal with Cersei - ie. a force not dependent on the slimy weasel LF.

If he had any brains - he would have gone to Stannis and asked him whether he had the will and the means to contest for the throne.

He would also have gone to Renly and checked out what sort of military power he had at his disposal.

Launching a palace coup with a handful of men backed with forces of dubious loyalty and doubtful military skill was practically ritual suicide.

But LF was at pains to tell Ned that he was quite the fool. Too bad he didn't listen.

[lyvyathan]

Oh I don't deny that she is devious, but she is not really good at it. Her major plot/scheme which she did on her own without the help of the master schemers/players, was the murder of Robert. However, compare it to the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Ned's arrest, etc. Not on the same scale and very clumsy imo. Hope Robert gets drunk and and hope the boar shows up, hope Robert misses, hope that the boar mortally wounds him, hope that Ned does not reveal the truth to Robert on his deathbed. So many things could have gone wrong with that plan. She just got lucky imho.

Hmm... sometimes people make their own luck. So I'm not going to chase after Cersei for that.

Mayhaps the hunting ground where Robert was at was stock full of Big Bad Boars.

And Cersei already knew that there wasn't a strong drink that Robert refused. Getting Robert drunk was the easy part.

We also have no idea to what extent Cersei and Littlefinger were colluding. Mayhaps they were already in bed (metaphor) way before Ned became the Hand. If someone can suggest otherwise I'd like to know too.

[lyvyathan]

Many of my reading friends have stated that Cersei is "stupid"... I could not disagree more. I believe she is very smart but what gets in her way (as I said in my original post) is her temper. Her fiery emotions get the best of her and because of that she makes mistakes a more circumspect person would avoid. But that is Cersei. I still believe she is one of the GREAT characters in the story.

"stupid" ? you mean emotional driven, blinded by the love of her son - aka axe murderer's mother syndrome, and clouded by feminine hubris, yeah I'd agree with that.

She's a great villain that people can hate: I just wish she had half the brains of LF to make the story more interesting.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Yes, Ned was really dumb for revealing his plans to Cersei without first ensuring that

1. his daughters were out of harms way

2. that he had the necessary forces to deal with Cersei - ie. a force not dependent on the slimy weasel LF.

If he had any brains - he would have gone to Stannis and asked him whether he had the will and the means to contest for the throne.

He would also have gone to Renly and checked out what sort of military power he had at his disposal.

Launching a palace coup with a handful of men backed with forces of dubious loyalty and doubtful military skill was practically ritual suicide.

But LF was at pains to tell Ned that he was quite the fool. Too bad he didn't listen.

Exactly! Although I really loved Ned, but he was really naive.

Hmm... sometimes people make their own luck. So I'm not going to chase after Cersei for that.

Mayhaps the hunting ground where Robert was at was stock full of Big Bad Boars.

:lol: , maybe it was. But still a very haphazard plan.

We also have no idea to what extent Cersei and Littlefinger were colluding. Mayhaps they were already in bed (metaphor) way before Ned became the Hand. If someone can suggest otherwise I'd like to know too.

I think LF had his own game. Namely, to cause war between the Starks and Lannisters. I think he was the mastermind behind the entire war. LF told Cat that the dagger belonged to Tyrion. I think it was LF who told Jaime that he and Ned would be at the brothel where Jaime ordered his men to attack Ned and Ned's leg got crushed. LF was behind Jon Arryn's death and the letter that Lysa sent to Cat in Winterfell, to bring Ned south and accept the position of Hand, I think it was LF who convinced Joff to behead Ned, etc.

However, to answer your question, I think he chose Cersei's side because Ned wanted to make Stannis king and LF probably figured that were Stannis to become king, he himself would have been in danger. So he helped make Joffrey king and later removed Joffrey with the help of the Tyrells.