Brienne=Azor Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 And, I clearly don't know how to hide spoilers, so I will speak cryptically. I hadn't made the connection between Pate dying by biting the coin, and that same tactic being used later in the stories. That all but garuntees that the alchemist is a faceless man, and the connections everyone here has made to prove it's Jaquen are amazing. You all shame me and make me think I'm not reading closely enough.I had decided for myself that the "Pate" we meet at the end had to be a faceless man, but I foolishly hadn't considered the fact that it could be Jaquen. Also, as I said, I hadn't thought about other folks in the series who had used poisoned coins. I really need to re-read the whole series once again. I've read them all twice except a Dance with Dragons (I'm in the middle of my second read now) but I think I need 3 or 4 readings before I can contribute much in here. Thank you all for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 No need to hide spoilers anymore. The spoiler poilicy has ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny The Longshanks Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I feel like the faceless men have been presented thus far as similar to the NW where they stay out of things. That's the impression they give to Arya anyway. However I don't think we are getting the whole story on them yet because while they are presented as an omniscient religious order they also kill people for money and not just as the gift.Their arch colliding with the Maesters is one of the things I'm most looking forward to in WOW because the the citadel seems to be similar a seemingly neutral order of servants that really isn't which is expounded on in Dance with Lady Hornwood's little speech about how they wisper in everyone's ears (I think it was Lady Hornwood anyway).Interesting idea about Varys too I never thought of him as a possible faceless man or having any lingering connection to any groups/people in the Free Cities besides Ilyrio. Ilyrio is obviously involved in some heavy stuff though, evidenced by his interest and influence in westerosi power politics and also how he somehow got dragon eggs. I'm not sure I buy Varys as being a servant of the realm as he has stated so any times. He has done nothing bout the demise of many leaders including Ned and Dany (he arranged for her poisoning in GOT).Its now occurring to me the possible Blackfyre connection because of Young Griff. He appeared to be wanting turmoil to allow Dany to take power but maybe it was for YG, all along. That explains the attempt on Dany's life but not Ilyrios support of Dany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Answer Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Joqen has a very unique style of dialogue, doesn't he? It's hard to describe, but it's very noticeable. And re-reading the Prologue, I think we can determine that the "Alchemist" is Joqen based off of his dialogue, rather than his appearance. 1st clue he's a faceless man is the fact that Pate didn't hear him approach before introducing himself. 2nd clue is the alchemist asked what Pate is,(Pate responded "I suppose I am a theif,") much like the way the Kindly man would ask Arya who she is.3rd, the dialogue. His blatant, obvious give away to being a faceless man is the response he gives Pate to the question, "Who are you?" He responds with, "A stranger. No one. Truly." And I can't really explain what I mean by Joqen having a unique talking style. But look at the rest of the responses he gives in the chapter, I hope you can picture Joqen saying these things as easily as I can."If you have what I require.""The river road is not the place. Come.""What I want is none of your concern." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaramyrSixchins Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 trying this to make sure I know how to appropriately hide potential spoilers. [spoiler/]Put your backslash in the second bracket BEFORE the word "spoiler"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youdontsnowme Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I think the Alchemist is Jaqen and has taken on the mantle of Pate to infiltrate the Citadel and gain the Maesters knowledge of Dragons, and more specifically how to kill them. The reason the Faceless Men would want to kill the Dragons is there order was born in the tyranny of the Valyrian empire, and wouldn't wish to see it return. Also on a completely unrelated note I have a theory that Izembaro is the Westerosi chapter of the Faceless Men, which will bring Arya Back to Westeros, where she could meet Samwell and eventually Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Grimes Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 While it is certainly obvious that the Alchemist is also Jaqen H'gar, if his motivation at Oldtown is to help kill the Dragons then I really do not understand what the Faceless Men stand for. From the actions we have seen of the Faceless Men (mainly Jaqen), they do not seem to actually practice what they stand for according to the Kindly Old Man. The way the KOM presents it is that the Faceless Men do not really get involved - they simply fulfill their contracts. But if they Faceless Men are looking for this book to destroy the Dragons then it seems to be going against everything Arya learns in her teachings.could be any faceless man using the same identity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Hand Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Another theory is that Euron paid for Balon's death with the dragon egg and the FM/Jaqen are trying to hatch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Just bumping this thread, since it was the latest one I found that included Pate.Current re-read of AGOT, and two names have stuck with me for further research - Pate and Marwyn. (more on Marwyn in other threads, needless to say he is incredibly significant).Since there are a ton of Pates around (Im guessing its similar to Pete nowadays), it may be nothing. But "Pate" of the NW was one of the builders who was also skilled in stonecarving, an apparently rare skill. He carved the white wolf head (Ghost) that is the pommel of Longclaw. In that task, he had contact with Samwell Tarly, who is now at the Citadel, which is also the location of the most significant Pate in the story, the man who's identity it appears Jaquen has taken.Does this mean anything? Are these two wholly separate Pates? If so, why did GRRM chose this random name for two characters, who just happen to intersect with Samwell, while Samwell is involved in two highly sensitive missions involving Jon Snow? Initially, it was the arming of Jon Snow with his Valyrian Steel bastard blade, re-fashioned in his likeness. Later, it is the arming of Jon Snow with a Maester and true friend and ally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night knight Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 If the alchemist is Jaqen is there a possibility he has gone rogue from the Faceless men. He doesn't appear to be fulfilling one contract but moving throughout westeros killing and now apparently infiltrating the citadel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Some theories suggest the "alchemist" as he labels himself is Jaqen H'gharr. The description of the stranger is very similar to the last we see of Jaq in Arya's weasel soup chapter. And of course, what with him being a faceless man, it would fit.Very similar is an understatement. It was the exact description, and I thought that it was more accepted common knowledge that the Alchemist = Jaqen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 If the alchemist is Jaqen is there a possibility he has gone rogue from the Faceless men. He doesn't appear to be fulfilling one contract but moving throughout westeros killing and now apparently infiltrating the citadelI have seen theories on here and The Citadel that he is infiltrating the Citadel to gather info on removing the dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four-Eyed Crow Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Syrio=Jaqen=Alchemist=PateIt is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Pate from the NW as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Just so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four-Eyed Crow Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hell, why not. Syrio seems to be everybody else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Syrio=/=Jaqen=Alchemist=PateIt is known.fixed ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Trollo Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hell, why not. Syrio seems to be everybody else..."I'm Syrio.....and so's my wife!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Does this mean anything? Are these two wholly separate Pates? King Tommen's whipping boy is also named Pate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four-Eyed Crow Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 King Tommen's whipping boy is also named Pate.Also a Syrio in disguise. The guy is a human transformer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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