Marriage Alliances - Are they still relevant?

[brashcandy]

and if GRRM is true to her characterisation, the Sansa/Tyrion marriage would either bring out the Queen Naerys in Sansa (which it did when they were married in ASOS) or (shudder) Sansa's inner Lysa Tully.

Sansa is learning political manipulation from Petyr Baelish and whilst the main function of this will be bringing down Petyr himself, it would do no harm if she used these skills to her own advantage. she could easily manipulate her 6 year old brother (and Wyman Manderly)into giving her a castle (the Dreadfort will soon be empyt) or for them to build a harbour on the western coast (the same way White Harbour was built to ward off pirates from the Sisters) to ward off future Iron Born attacks... Staying Alayne and marrying Sandor... what the hell would they eat and wear would they live? it's not like the Lannisters will give him his family's keep back.

I have a theory that Tyrion could be instrumental in helping Sandor. We don't quite know yet why Sandor despises him, but Tyrion definitely doesn't seem to personally hate Sandor. Maybe he would ensure that Sandor's name is cleared and he gains the Clegane lands, and could Tyrion even be sympathetic to a San/San match? I think he could....

I know right now that Tyrion is an accursed kinslayer, but surely that reputation won't prevent him from regaining power in Westeros.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We know why Sandor hates Tyrion: Battle of the Blackwater, fire, a certain sortie. The proud Hound was broken afterwards, and the Halfman is responsible.

The Sansa/Tyrion relationship may be better than Sansa/another Lannister, but "You didn't rape me, I won't pull your entrails out and strip them through a heart tree when I'm killing off your family" is not "I love you."

[Alexia]

Sansa doesn't think of Tyrion all that fondly. She's pathetically grateful that he didn't rape her, but she also thinks that his offer to be good to her was only another Lannister lie. Sansa firmly believes that Tyrion and the Lannisters were planning to kill her.

[The Bloody Boar]

So whilst political marriages are about consolidating land, titles and more power, I don't think we can discount the very real importance of personal happiness. When people aren't happy things can go very very wrong.

I think it's less about people not being happy in their marriage and more about not having one of the people in the marriage a completely deranged individual.

[Raksha the Demon]

Major marriage options for Sansa:

Sansa/Harry the Heir: Littlefinger has already laid out the reasoning for this, and on the surface it sounds like a great idea. Declare Sansa at her wedding to the Vale's starboy, and have everyone pledge their swords to win her back her birthright. The only complication now with this is Rickon's returning to the North as well. How will LF react to this development based on the fact that he imagines setting Sansa up as Queen in the North it seems? The other problem with this idea - assuming that LF is indeed serious about it - is that it keeps Sansa as LF's pawn. He is in effect acting as "queenmaker" and she is the puppet. Certainly this is not a satisfactory outcome for Sansa. But if she needs to how can she thwart LF's plans here, besides running away which might bring more problems.

Sansa/Aegon: Seems like it would be a good fit and would allow Sansa to fit nicely into the prophecy as Cersei's younger queen. What we've seen so far of Aegon indicates that he's honourable, even though a bit rash. Sansa should have no problem with his looks, and he's close to her age too. But 1. As of now, Sansa is sequestered in the Vale, with no means of meeting Aegon unless LF hears of his arrival and decides that this is a better option for her. Will LF relinquish control of his pawn so easily? And 2. If Aegon is indeed the mummer's dragon, then Sansa's fate is tied to his and I don't want to see her get roasted by dragon fire :)

Sansa/Sweetrobin: Initially what her aunt Lysa envisioned, but not what LF wants and he is actively poisoning Robert to ensure that he dies. How can Sweetrobin benefit Sansa? Well she could still move forward in reclaiming her birthright, and she wouldn't have to sleep with anyone yet (yay! for Sandor) but can she tolerate Sweetrobin's crankiness without strangling him herself? ;) Also, if her uncle the Blackfish turns up, he may advocate this match as well.

Sansa/Tyrion: She's already married to him, but the marriage has not been consummated. If she remains a Lannister, then the North is effectively lost to her, but she could make a move on Casterly Rock perhaps? Tyrion himself remains hated and despised, but he's returning from Essos with a sizeable sellsword army (maybe a dragon) and he wants to reclaim his birthright. Cersei is the main obstacle here but her days may be numbered, and she may choose to remain in Kings Landing to protect Tommen's kingship. So Sansa as a Lannister could have access to huge sums of money (rebuild Winterfell!) but the problem is that she hates the Lannisters and remaining one may be the last thing she wants to do. But if it gets her away from LF would she consider it?

Sansa/Willas: This ship seems to have sailed. I think he'll become Myrcella's husband.

Sansa/Sandor: The least likely option of all in terms of tangible benefits, but the one that she might actually want the most because of affection, (love?) and compatibility. Sandor as the Clegane heir could give her a reasonably comfortable life but she would have to give up any desire to reclaim Winterfell or Queenship. I don't think Sansa would mind this life at all, but is it likely that this is what GRRM has in store for her?

So which option represents the best alliance for Sansa?

I am holding out hope, though probably in vain, for the Willas/Sansa marriage, that is, if Willas is a kind and not-dull person. It is a bit odd that the heir to House Tyrell is still unmarried in his what, late 20's? We know he is lame, is he able to walk, father children? I would love to see Sansa as the lady of a great house and domain, with a man who has the humanity to be good to her and the power of a wealthy and influential House to keep her safe.

However, Sansa did seem to be, in AFFC, returning to Winterfell in her heart. Maybe she does want a life in the increasingly frozen and hungry and dangerous North. A life with who, though? There is great chemistry between her and Sandor, but I can't see him him becoming domesticated and settling down to a hearth and easy chair in the Dreadfort or wherever with Sansa and making baby Wolf-Hounds. (although that has a nice ring to it, House Clegane, with words Hear Me Howl, and a banner with a wolfhound on it).

I can't see Sansa staying Mrs. Lannister for the rest of her life, or even for the next ten years. She'll either get an annulment or a widowhood eventually.

Maybe Selyse will die, Stannis will become King of something, and marry Sansa. Though I wouldn't wish Stannis on anyone; and Sansa deserves someone who cares about her. Though if Daenerys ever gets around to invading Westeros, I don't think Stannis will survive; and even little Edric Storm might be wiped out of the picture.

What if Harry the Heir is actually a likeable young fellow who falls for Sansa and they do get married, and have a child or two before Littlefinger arranges a fatal accident for him? I'm not sure that Harry is going to be the Vale's version of Joffrey or Robert; it would be repetitive. But I'm not sure that Sansa could be happy spending her life in the Eyrie and the Vale; I'd rather see her either in Highgarden or in the North (as Regent of Winterfell while Rickon is little, and Lady of the Dreadfort).

Even if SweetRobin survives through puberty, I don't think a first cousin/first cousin marriage to Sansa would be good for them. And someone will probably kill him before that, if only out of annoyance...

Of course, GRRM could defy expectation and end the series with the reign of Good King Aegon and Queen Sansa the Fair...But I don't think so.

[brashcandy]

Maybe Selyse will die, Stannis will become King of something, and marry Sansa. Though I wouldn't wish Stannis on anyone; and Sansa deserves someone who cares about her. Though if Daenerys ever gets around to invading Westeros, I don't think Stannis will survive; and even little Edric Storm might be wiped out of the picture.

What if Harry the Heir is actually a likeable young fellow who falls for Sansa and they do get married, and have a child or two before Littlefinger arranges a fatal accident for him? I'm not sure that Harry is going to be the Vale's version of Joffrey or Robert; it would be repetitive. But I'm not sure that Sansa could be happy spending her life in the Eyrie and the Vale; I'd rather see her either in Highgarden or in the North (as Regent of Winterfell while Rickon is little, and Lady of the Dreadfort).

Even if SweetRobin survives through puberty, I don't think a first cousin/first cousin marriage to Sansa would be good for them. And someone will probably kill him before that, if only out of annoyance...

Of course, GRRM could defy expectation and end the series with the reign of Good King Aegon and Queen Sansa the Fair...But I don't think so.

Stannis/Sansa... that would be interesting.... :lol:

I agree with you that having Harry the Heir turn out to be another douche would be insanely repetitive. I think GRRM wants us to believe he might be because of the whole fathering bastards issue, but he may indeed be very decent to Sansa. He may be no different than any other young knight out there looking to make a name for himself.

However, I just don't see them working out. I think Sansa will panic about the prospect of another arranged marriage, after all look at how the Tyrion one went, and she may decide to flee the Vale rather than risk it.

I think there's something up with Willas too. He seemed perfectly fine via the Tyrells' description, but as we've come to see that family is a master at hiding secrets when it comes to their children. Loras enters the KG - the perfect place to "protect" his sister, and conceal that pesky sexuality. Margaery had no problem becoming Renly's bride and we know she's hiding something herself too (is she a lesbian? does she have another man in her life? the moontea mystery). So I'm very much expecting something to be up with Willas as well.

[Alexia]

I am holding out hope, though probably in vain, for the Willas/Sansa marriage, that is, if Willas is a kind and not-dull person.

Why? You know, I thought that marriage would have been very nice originally, but after how ruthlessly the Tyrells used Sansa and how willing they were to frame her for crimes she was innocent of, I don't really want her anywhere near that family. Harry the Heir is much better... he isn't going to frame her for murder and watch her die. Even an unfaithful husband is better than a husband with the Queen of Thorns and Margaery Tyrell for relatives. Plus, most of the family thinks she tried to kill Margaery. (On Willas' age, he was 24 in ASOS and Edmure was still unmarried at 28.)

Sansa needs an independent power base of her own, that has personal loyalty to her. She can gain that through the Vale marriage but she will never get that from the Tyrells. Ned was fostered in the Vale, and I suspect many of the Vale lords will see her as "Ned's girl" too and given what a sweet, lovely person she is, she be able to build off that groundwork (friendship with Ned Stark, loyalty to Harrold Hardyng and Jon's memory) and gain their personal loyalty and respect in in short order. If she marries Harry, Sansa can become very politically powerful in her own right... especially if Harry is uninterested in politics (and given that he seems to be Robert Jr., I suspect he is).

The marriage to Aegon, while an interesting thought and I like the idea, seems exceedingly unlikely. I don't think the Targaryens are going to reclaim what they lost (real or pretend Targaryens), I don't think the kingdoms are going to stay united, and I don't see LF turning his pawn over to Varys. In fact, I think we'll see a war of pawns to some extent in TWOW -- LF/Sansa vs. Varys/Aegon.

I rather expect Sansa to end up as the Eleanor of Aquitaine figure for ASOIAF. And the only way I see that happening is through the marriage to Harry.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I think there's something up with Willas too. He seemed perfectly fine via the Tyrells' description, but as we've come to see that family is a master at hiding secrets when it comes to their children. Loras enters the KG - the perfect place to "protect" his sister, and conceal that pesky sexuality. Margaery had no problem becoming Renly's bride and we know she's hiding something herself too (is she a lesbian? does she have another man in her life? the moontea mystery). So I'm very much expecting something to be up with Willas as well.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. There is something up with Willas and the Tyrells have too many family secrets.

Even though in my fantasies, I would love for San/San to work out, I don't see it happening for the simple reason of who Sansa is.

Harry might actually be good for her. We haven't met him yet so I hope he will surprise us. If not Harry than someone from the north.

A northern guy would actually be ironic, since Ned wanted to marry her to some northern lord after he broke off the Joffrey betrothal and she hated the idea.

[Grail King]

I could easily see Sansa becoming a septa; she's certainly pious enough for it. It was interesting to see her through Tyrion's eyes and realize just how religious she is. Her ordeal in KL left her very little to sustain her but her faith. I doubt that's the direction her arc will take her, though. Maybe a Virgin Queen like Elizabeth I, but even that seems unlikely (she needs an army).

As long as she doesn't end up as a silent sister I could see this, but I would like to see her pick her own marriage for her and Stark family continued existence; or as I mentioned in another post Elizabeth the first, with any lover she like.

Can a Septa marry? I mean they are basically teachers, then she could teach her family's children.

[Grail King]

I am holding out hope, though probably in vain, for the Willas/Sansa marriage, that is, if Willas is a kind and not-dull person. It is a bit odd that the heir to House Tyrell is still unmarried in his what, late 20's? We know he is lame, is he able to walk, father children? I would love to see Sansa as the lady of a great house and domain, with a man who has the humanity to be good to her and the power of a wealthy and influential House to keep her safe.

However, Sansa did seem to be, in AFFC, returning to Winterfell in her heart. Maybe she does want a life in the increasingly frozen and hungry and dangerous North. A life with who, though? There is great chemistry between her and Sandor, but I can't see him him becoming domesticated and settling down to a hearth and easy chair in the Dreadfort or wherever with Sansa and making baby Wolf-Hounds. (although that has a nice ring to it, House Clegane, with words Hear Me Howl, and a banner with a wolfhound on it).

I can't see Sansa staying Mrs. Lannister for the rest of her life, or even for the next ten years. She'll either get an annulment or a widowhood eventually.

Maybe Selyse will die, Stannis will become King of something, and marry Sansa. Though I wouldn't wish Stannis on anyone; and Sansa deserves someone who cares about her. Though if Daenerys ever gets around to invading Westeros, I don't think Stannis will survive; and even little Edric Storm might be wiped out of the picture.

What if Harry the Heir is actually a likeable young fellow who falls for Sansa and they do get married, and have a child or two before Littlefinger arranges a fatal accident for him? I'm not sure that Harry is going to be the Vale's version of Joffrey or Robert; it would be repetitive. But I'm not sure that Sansa could be happy spending her life in the Eyrie and the Vale; I'd rather see her either in Highgarden or in the North (as Regent of Winterfell while Rickon is little, and Lady of the Dreadfort).

Even if SweetRobin survives through puberty, I don't think a first cousin/first cousin marriage to Sansa would be good for them. And someone will probably kill him before that, if only out of annoyance...

Of course, GRRM could defy expectation and end the series with the reign of Good King Aegon and Queen Sansa the Fair...But I don't think so.

I know she liked the Willas match, but don't you think she catch / did catch on that the QOT used her and with that implicated her in Joff's death I don't think she would trust the Tyrells after that.

Any castle but the Dreadfort unless she tears it down buries the foundations pours holy water and plants many Wierwood trees and build in a different area in the north too many ghost in that place.

I like all the Starks and like them all to end up alive and some what happy but I like that for Sansa most of all.

[LordBloodraven]

A northern guy would actually be ironic, since Ned wanted to marry her to some northern lord after he broke off the Joffrey betrothal and she hated the idea.

If Harrion Karstark is alive, why not him?

[Grail King]

If Harrion Karstark is alive, why not him?

Well that be keeping it all in the family so to speak.

Didn't Rob slay a Karstark for killing young kids?

[LordBloodraven]

Well that be keeping it all in the family so to speak.

Didn't Rob slay a Karstark for killing young kids?

Yep, he beheaded Lord Rickard Karstark.

Settling family affairs too

[Tini]

If she marries Harry, Sansa can become very politically powerful in her own right... especially if Harry is uninterested in politics (and given that he seems to be Robert Jr., I suspect he is).

That depends on Harry's personality. He might be uninterested in politics himself, and still consider it inappropriate in his wife to show interest in politics. Many men in Westeros think that their wives should look after the family, not get involved in things that do not concern them, like politics.

[Alexia]

That depends on Harry's personality. He might be uninterested in politics himself, and still consider it inappropriate in his wife to show interest in politics. Many men in Westeros think that their wives should look after the family, not get involved in things that do not concern them, like politics.

Meh. If his wife takes the great burden off him of counting coppers and meeting with lords, and sweetly recounts what happened and asks for his advice while rubbing his back at the end of a long day of hunting...

I think that Cersei could have very easily manipulated Robert and taken pretty full control of the kingdom, with Jon Arryn as her only adversary, had she used her sweet charm and acted like she was advocating his best interests, instead of letting it be known how much she hates him. Which is part of why I'm think we'll see Sansa get with Robert 2.0, but in her case she'll end up making different choices on handling it than Cersei did and end up in a very powerful position.

[Shaggydog Stark]

If Harrion Karstark is alive, why not him?

I think Harrion would actually be a good match because it would bury the hatchet so to speak.

Well that be keeping it all in the family so to speak.

Didn't Rob slay a Karstark for killing young kids?

Yeah Robb killed Harrion's father Lord Rickard, but Jon and Alys seem to have put that behind them so perhaps Harrion can too.

[brashcandy]

Meh. If his wife takes the great burden off him of counting coppers and meeting with lords, and sweetly recounts what happened and asks for his advice while rubbing his back at the end of a long day of hunting...

I think that Cersei could have very easily manipulated Robert and taken pretty full control of the kingdom, with Jon Arryn as her only adversary, had she used her sweet charm and acted like she was advocating his best interests, instead of letting it be known how much she hates him. Which is part of why I'm think we'll see Sansa get with Robert 2.0, but in her case she'll end up making different choices on handling it than Cersei did and end up in a very powerful position.

:) I've always thought that Harry would be a bit like Drogo/Robert (with the bastards) And I think that if she marries him she will be a lot smarter than Cersei was for sure. I could see her taking full control of the marriage but I do think that Harry will die shortly after though (not by LF's hand), and then she might really be in that similar position of Dany/Cersei with power to direct her own future and perhaps that of her child's.

[Tini]

Meh. If his wife takes the great burden off him of counting coppers and meeting with lords, and sweetly recounts what happened and asks for his advice while rubbing his back at the end of a long day of hunting...

I think that Cersei could have very easily manipulated Robert and taken pretty full control of the kingdom, with Jon Arryn as her only adversary, had she used her sweet charm and acted like she was advocating his best interests, instead of letting it be known how much she hates him. Which is part of why I'm think we'll see Sansa get with Robert 2.0, but in her case she'll end up making different choices on handling it than Cersei did and end up in a very powerful position.

I think she'd end up like the Queen of Thorns. He decides what to do, Sansa'll be doing damage control behind the scenes. He'll be proud how well his plans work out, and never suspect Sansa's part in his success. She'd be good at it, no doubt.

ETA: I suspect that Johanna Lannister and Sansa probably had a lot in common. Sansa could have made a marriage with Tywin Lannister work, too. Uggh. What a thought.

[Alexia]

I think she'd end up like the Queen of Thorns. He decides what to do, Sansa'll be doing damage control behind the scenes. He'll be proud how well his plans work out, and never suspect Sansa's part in his success. She'd be good at it, no doubt.

Ah, that is the question. Will Harry be a disinterested incompetent, or an interested incompetent? And which is worse? :lol:

I take it no one thinks he'll turn out to be a really nice man, a competent lord, who loves and respects Sansa and they end up having a loving marriage much like Ned and Catelyn's? I hope for that, but for some reason I don't know...

LF says that the Vale will never love him but they will love their Young Falcon. That means that Harry is already well liked and respected by the lords of the Vale. That speaks well for him on its own, despite Myranda's (possibly jealous) dislike of him, no?

[Shaggydog Stark]

So we are betting on Harry are we? What the hell, here is to Harry and Sansa, may he turn out to be nothing like Joffrey!

How about other marriage alliances? I am very interested in choices for Arya. I really can't think of anyone who would be appropriate for Arya except for maybe Tristan Martell. I mean age wise, I don't think Arya would have patience for anyone who spends all his time playing cryvasse ;)