Hooded Man of Winterfell Part 2

[The Crow Beyond the Wall]

Does the dialogue come off as religious to anyone else?

I know it is in response to Theon trying to use the "I'm an Ironborn" excuse, but when the HM says "False is all you were. Why do you still breathe?" I can't help but think a bit of judgement is coming across. Theon then explains why he still lives by saying "The gods are not finished with me" (or something along those lines).

I don't know why, but this is just coming off as pretty religious to me.

[scurvy]

I kind of took Harwin as not being that loyal to the Starks when all was said and done. Arya seemed to be a pretty good natural judge of character, and she didn't seem to trust Harwin as much as I expected...

I don't think he's loyal to the Starks. I think he's loyal to the Brotherhood without Banners. And, his job is to infiltrate Winterfell and slaughter Freys, muck like Tom O Sevenstrings who showed up in Riverrun just as it was changing hands to the Freys. Once Ladystoneheart took over the Brotherhood she wasn't a Stark or a Tully anymore, she was an instrument to kill the Freys and she uses her men to do her bidding.

[tearloch]

I don't think he's loyal to the Starks. I think he's loyal to the Brotherhood without Banners. And, his job is to infiltrate Winterfell and slaughter Freys, muck like Tom O Sevenstrings who showed up in Riverrun just as it was changing hands to the Freys. Once Ladystoneheart took over the Brotherhood she wasn't a Stark or a Tully anymore, she was an instrument to kill the Freys and she uses her men to do her bidding.

IDK, it seems that a random dude, like Harwin, would have to arrive at Winterfell with one of the groups (Boltons, Manderlys, etc). He didn't just walk up to the gate one day and they let him in. And if that was his mission, and he has been there a while, why did he wait until now to start killing, and why did he only kill one Frey? And a child at that?

[tearloch]

Oh, one more PLUS for the Howland Reed theory:

He sent his [only?] two children to Winterfell. He has not heard word about them since. I think that he would be looking for some answers...not just sitting in his bog saying "Damn, I guess I need to rekindle that romance with the old lady". Put this in the motives column for Howland being at Winterfell.

[Michael Jon Snow]

Tearloch,

There is nothing in the text about the stature of the HM. Which, I think, is strange if the HM were as small as Howland Reed. It is not proof, but it leads me to doubt him being HR.

As for him sending his children alone, this is the man who went on a solo trip to the godseye. I don't see an inconsistency here.

He could be, I just don't think so.

[tearloch]

Tearloch, There is nothing in the text about the stature of the HM. Which, I think, is strange if the HM were as small as Howland Reed. It is not proof, but it leads me to doubt him being HR. As for him sending his children alone, this is the man who went on a solo trip to the godseye. I don't see an inconsistency here. He could be, I just don't think so.

Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong on all this. EVERY option we have discussed has some holes in it, or leaps of faith he have to make to have it work out with the limited knowledge presented in the storyline itself.

I just think that Howland has some intriguing possible motives for being there....not that I 100% support it. I am more trying to flush out all the possible candidates, eliminate those that are not likely (like the Sandor case).

And are we ever told that Howland himself is "abnormally" small? I know the common thought of all craggonmen being small in stature. I know that Jojen and Meera seem small in stature. But what it Howland is large for a craggonmen? What if Howland's wife is small, making their children small compared to him? And I am not saying Howland is comparable to the "average" hedge knight in size, but on a relative scale, if his size is similar to a small northerner, then I just don't buy it as a reason to eliminate him as an option, based on that alone.

I will say this, this thread (and the previous one) are the first ones I read on this sight. Love this topic, as potentially obscure as it may be.

[Heavy Horse]

All of your musing do lead to a theory that most of the Northern houses are assembling a host to retake the north. It's exciting to think this host exploding from Greywater like ants with Meage in the lead (or may already have). I'm still wondering what POV this will come from though.

I like the Howland Reed theroy.

My problems with the rest is: Benjen (no clear motive), Hallas (could he pull it off?), Sandor (timing, lack of motive and wording is off), Blackfish (lack of motive), Glover (possible but is he sly enough), Davos (not his style), all the rest I believe speak for themselves.

However anyone who attempted a GWW trip could have the right motive and information (or more than we have) to go north and be HM. (Glover, Blackfish, Hallas, Sandor)

One key point we have to remember is this is someone Theon did not mind showing his missing fingers to. I think that speaks volumes, and possibly against Howland Reed.

[Michael Jon Snow]

stealing from Verboten:

Okay so the current theories are:

xxx Sandor Clegane: the only one of the theories to be disproven by the books as he knows the real Arya

Theon and Reek have someone sharing their head: Not foreshadowed in any way but still plausible.

Galbert Glover: Actually makes the most sense assuming he didn't die in the war.

xxx Harwin: Again makes sense. Busy in the south hunting Freys.

xxx Osha: Wex mentions following two figures with a wolf and Shaggy is on Skagos so unsure about this one.

xxx Howland Reed: Plausible, HM's height is never mentioned

Hallis Moren: Makes a lot of sense.

xxx Benjen Stark: Really depends on your interpretation of the character

Crowsfood Umber: Difficult to say. (or one of his men)

xxx Alliser Thorne: Interesting idea.

xxx The Blackfish: I honestly can't see him staying his hand but it still has merit.

xxx Davos: right coolness factor, wrong place and time. He is off on Skaggos.

xxx The Liddle: the northerner Bran and friends encounter. Possible but the Liddle is described as wearing a squirrel skin cloak. Would have been the perfect little clue.

Robbett Glover (or any Manderly supporter for that matter.) Could be. Just because Theon doesn't know who it is, doesn't mean that it isn't someone "known" to be there.

xxx are ones I think are highly unlikely, but I could be wrong.

[Miriel]

Don't forget Robett Glover as a candidate. He was w/ Manderley, perhaps in secret (Davos saw him but we don't know if anyone else knew he was there).

It is possible he rode North along with Manderley's host (maybe helped bake a pie along the way). And got in Winterfell with the Manderely host but is incognito.

[Eyron]

Robett Glover would have had to have missed everything that happened in Winterfell since their arrival, since he was surprised to see Theon/Reek alive. I suppose he could have been hiding somewhere, one of the abandoned towers or some place like that.

[Michael Jon Snow]

Robett Glover would have had to have missed everything that happened in Winterfell since their arrival, since he was surprised to see Theon/Reek alive. I suppose he could have been hiding somewhere, one of the abandoned towers or some place like that.

I didn't read it that way. I think many were"surprised" that Theon was alive at the wedding. This may have simply been this persons first chance to confront him about it. That's how I read it anyway.

[Miriel]

Robett Glover would have had to have missed everything that happened in Winterfell since their arrival, since he was surprised to see Theon/Reek alive. I suppose he could have been hiding somewhere, one of the abandoned towers or some place like that.

I took 'how is it you still live?' to be not actual surprise at Theon's being alive, but more as a commentary on that Theon should not be alive after all he had done.

[Ser Raymun Fossoway]

Okay. It's unpopular but as we have heard how there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell, I think it is Benjen.

Running away now...... :leaving:

well played

[tolthar]

One option is that the crannogmen are off freeing the Lannister/Frey hostages, as a conspiracy between the Neck/BWWB/Riverlords was hinted at in AFFC. But I'm not sure if the timeline matches up enough for that. But there's also a second and extremely plausible possibility: the crannogmen didn't attack the host because the crannogmen were infiltrating the host. GRRM has told us time and again that armies march with a long tail of camp followers, armorers, cooks, freeriders, and the like. That's how Mance Rayder infiltrated Winterfell during AGOT----he just attached himself to Robert's train and nobody bothered to ask who he was. And with a host of men drawn from two wildly different groups, it would be easy to sneak in; the Boltons would assume any unfamiliar faces were with the Freys, and the Freys would assume they were with the Boltons.

Yes! This is an awesome assumption and gets me to thinking! :D

[Aluminum Link]

My problems with the rest is: ... Davos (not his style)...

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying the dialogue is not his style or something else? I personally think the right-to-the-point style of dialogue fits Davos perfectly.

One key point we have to remember is this is someone Theon did not mind showing his missing fingers to.

Don't you think if Theon recognized the person then it would have said so in the text? I think for some unknown reason Theon realizes he has nothing to fear from the HM. It has nothing to do with it being someone he knows and already feels comfortable with.

xxx Davos: right coolness factor, wrong place and time. He is off on Skaggos.

xxx are ones I think are highly unlikely, but I could be wrong.

Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a nightmare where all I do is refute the same arguments over and over but no matter how many times I try they keep resurfacing.

In part 1 of this thread I looked through the text added up the days between the last we saw of Davos and the HM incident. It's about 4 months between the two events, plenty of time (in my opinion) to get to Skagos, do whatever he does and get back again. Post #223 has the details:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55395-adwd-spoilers-the-hooded-man-at-winterfell/page__st__220

I think anyone who wants to seriously refute the Davos theory needs to start by explaining why those 4 months were left out of the book. My theory of why can be found in post #205:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55395-adwd-spoilers-the-hooded-man-at-winterfell/page__st__200

I've yet to see any alternatives put forward.

[tearloch]

Alumiinum link....you pseudo convinced me a couple of weeks ago on Davos being possible, but I am really warming up to this growing conspiracy of pretty much the whole North being ready to turn on Bolton idea, and the HM is Robert or Galbert Glover getting word to the rest of the lords (Manderly, etc) that it is on like donkey kong outside the gates.

But, since you are a Davos fan, you may appreciate my new theory on Davos....that he is AA reborn.....fully explained in this thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...e-sea-prophecy/

It hit me like a ton of bricks today, so it is not fully researched.

[Edit] Sorry, I may be crossing threads...but there is discussions of Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover in league with Howland Reed at Greywater (their last known destination).....

Who are in league with Robert Glover and Wyman Manderly......

Who are in league with Talharts, Umbers, and pretty much every northerner NOT named Bolton......

All waiting outside Winterfell to kick some Bolton / Frey arse as soon as they come out.....

Oh yeah, all of this with Ned's bones in hand......

And for that matter, why not throw in Davos, Rickon, Osha, and one pissed off (because he loved the taste of unicorn and now he can't have anymore) Shaggydog.....[heck lets throw the Blackfish in there as well, just for giggles]

Followed by a triumphant march to the wall, where they will tell Jon (hopefully alive at this point) that he is now a Stark...and the King in the North.....oh yeah, then Howland drops the bomb that Lyanna is his mum, and Ned was not his dad....but Robb's decree is still valid since he was, in fact, a Stark bastard, now legit, and now the King.......

The end......

OK, maybe I added in the last few lines....everything after the kicking Bolton/Frey arse, but it still sounds good to me.

[The Crow Beyond the Wall]

Again, I think it is important to remember that Asha (who had seen Theon as recently as his sack of Winterfell) did not recognize Theon when she first saw him, due to his appearance change at the hands of Ramsey Bolton. The HM HAS to be someone that knew what Theon looked like even after his change in appearance. Otherwise, like Ahsa, they would have just seen an old man hobbling along.

I also agree with Miriel, that the HM may not necessarily be surprised when he asks "How is it you still breathe?" Instead, he probably knows Theon to be alive and is just amazed no one has offed the dude yet.

Due to this, I think I support the Reed theory the most. Only a few of the Northern lords would recognize him, and I think he could have hidden amongst the others long enough to find out who Theon was, regardless of the changes in his appearance.

[Old Gods Be Good]

One interesting little hint from Martin in the brief interaction between HM and Turncloak is the line "Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled his glove from his left hand."

This is the best I can come up with.

Since Ramsay turned Theon into Reek, he's become quite scared of everything. He's terrified of Ramsay, and terrified to say anything about Ramsay, good or bad, out of fear that the unpredictable lunatic will flay another part of his body.

So with Theon being so scared of everyone and everything because he fears Ramsay's torture, it makes no sense at all that he'd not be afraid of the HM if he wasn't 100% sure this guy would not go back to Ramsay and try to get Reek in trouble. What would it take for him to be so sure of this?

It could be Theon recognizes the HM. The guy obviously recognized him, so this seems somewhat realistic. And when HM and Theon briefly locked eyes, the HM put his hand on his dagger. Was he going to kill Theon? but didn't because he saw his flayed hand and knew it'd be better to let him go on suffering? Whatever the case, Theon never mentions the HM to anyone afterward, so he not only wasn't afraid of the man, he also decided to let the HM continue roaming Winterfell in stealth.

The rest of the chapter is weird too.

They hear war drums from Stannis whose 3 days away? With the snow falling the way it is that seems virtually impossible. Not to mention in Asha's next chapter with Stannis and his men there's no mention of war drums or anything of the sort.

Later still, Theon hears his name, then the name Bran is whispered. Right after that he sees Bran's face in the Weirwood tree, "staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad." Red eyes? Ghost? AA?

Great chapter

[Miriel]

One interesting little hint from Martin in the brief interaction between HM and Turncloak is the line "Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled his glove from his left hand."

This is the best I can come up with.

Since Ramsay turned Theon into Reek, he's become quite scared of everything. He's terrified of Ramsay, and terrified to say anything about Ramsay, good or bad, out of fear that the unpredictable lunatic will flay another part of his body.

So with Theon being so scared of everyone and everything because he fears Ramsay's torture, it makes no sense at all that he'd not be afraid of the HM if he wasn't 100% sure this guy would not go back to Ramsay and try to get Reek in trouble. What would it take for him to be so sure of this?

It could be Theon recognizes the HM. The guy obviously recognized him, so this seems somewhat realistic. And when HM and Theon briefly locked eyes, the HM put his hand on his dagger. Was he going to kill Theon? but didn't because he saw his flayed hand and knew it'd be better to let him go on suffering? Whatever the case, Theon never mentions the HM to anyone afterward, so he not only wasn't afraid of the man, he also decided to let the HM continue roaming Winterfell in stealth.

The rest of the chapter is weird too.

They hear war drums from Stannis whose 3 days away? With the snow falling the way it is that seems virtually impossible. Not to mention in Asha's next chapter with Stannis and his men there's no mention of war drums or anything of the sort.

Later still, Theon hears his name, then the name Bran is whispered. Right after that he sees Bran's face in the Weirwood tree, "staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad." Red eyes? Ghost? AA?

Great chapter

The drums they hear are from Mors Umber, who is very close to Winterfell w/ some men at arms (remember the Iron Banker tells Asha he found Mors Umber right outside the walls of Winterfell with a band of green boys or something like that). They are blowing the horns to unnerve the folks inside Winterfell--and it is working.

It could well be that the voice Theon hears who whispers his name is Bran, who is 'seeing' Theon through the weir wood tree. The eyes are red b/c his face is kind of superimposed through the tree?

As to your first point, the fact that Theon is not afraid of showing the HM his maimed hand whereas in the next scene he is terrified to show it to Roose/Lady Dustin and others is something that really makes me think the HM is Theon himself. I know there are lots of problems with the theory ... but it makes the most sense for me.

[tearloch]

The drums they hear are from Mors Umber, who is very close to Winterfell w/ some men at arms (remember the Iron Banker tells Asha he found Mors Umber right outside the walls of Winterfell with a band of green boys or something like that). They are blowing the horns to unnerve the folks inside Winterfell--and it is working.

It could well be that the voice Theon hears who whispers his name is Bran, who is 'seeing' Theon through the weir wood tree. The eyes are red b/c his face is kind of superimposed through the tree?

As to your first point, the fact that Theon is not afraid of showing the HM his maimed hand whereas in the next scene he is terrified to show it to Roose/Lady Dustin and others is something that really makes me think the HM is Theon himself. I know there are lots of problems with the theory ... but it makes the most sense for me.

I have thought the same thing about Theon's uncharacteristicly not fearing to show his maimed hand to the HM. And I don't exclude the Theon Durden theory as plausible. But I also like the idea that Theon in fact recognized the HM, and knew that he IS NOT in league with the Boltons. Also, once the HM does not kill him (after reaching for his dagger) empowers Theon to know "This guy is not here for me, so I have nothing to fear from this man." It also seems that after this encounter, Theon seems to finalize realize the only person that is going to get him out of this is himself. This leads me to believe the HM is someone that Theon knew, someone that Theon knows is against him tormentor, and possibly someone that Theon respected and/or feared. Once the HM let him live, the fear was gone from Theon. That, to me, points to the Blackfish

Maybe, in a way, the showing of the maimed hand was Theon's way of say "Hey, you are on a mission (and thankfully it does not include me), but look out, because Ramsay is a psycho....see what he did to me."

Image you are a teenager who is doing (did) something that is wrong. You are scared when every authority figure comes up to you that "OMG, they know I did it." But then you meet a cop on the street, who addresses you, but doesn't arrest you....or even acts like he knows what you did but doesn't seem act like that is why he is there. I image you would be relieved, and would also feel empowered to mention that crackhouse you just walked past, or whatever.