Hooded Man of Winterfell Part 2

[Cold Mist]

The key to this equation is knowing what Luwin whispered to Osha before they 'left' Winterfell.

I don't know what it was any more than you do, but what I am sure of is that Bran took Osha for a man when he first saw her in the Wolfwood, and 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell'.

And that even the Greyjoy ward feared the lower crypts.

The hooded 'man' was no man.

The boy resides in a place where men break their fast on the flesh of men. Someone sing me a song about the about the Rat King.

[The Crow Beyond the Wall]

The key to this equation is knowing what Luwin whispered to Osha before they 'left' Winterfell.

I don't know what it was any more than you do, but what I am sure of is that Bran took Osha for a man when he first saw her in the Wolfwood, and 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell'.

And that even the Greyjoy ward feared the lower crypts.

The hooded 'man' was no man.

The boy resides in a place where men break their fast on the flesh of men. Someone sing me a song about the about the Rat King.

I like this idea, but doesn't Theon know who Osha is? He was there when she was captured, and she also bent the knee to him when he took over Winterfell. He seemed to remember her then. I don't think he would have mistaken her for a man that easily.

[The Crow Beyond the Wall]

I think it is important to remember that Asha Greyjoy doesn't even recognize Theon when she first sees him, and she had been around him much more recently than Benjen, the Hound, Howland Reed, or the Blackfish.

Also, after re-reading this part of the book, I am not so certain Theon recognizes the HM, although it is fairly obvious the HM recognizes Theon. The HM names Theon twice, but Theon only wonders whether this hooded stranger could be the killer that has been stalking Winterfell.

Based on this, I rule out the following IMO:

- The Hound, because I believe Theon would remember him from King Robert's visit in AGOT.

- The Blackfish, because I am not so sure he knew Theon by face, and am even less certain that he would know the new Theon by face.

- Benjen, because I am among those that believe him to be Coldhands. Theon might also have recognized the ranger.

- Howland Reed, because I don't think he know Theon by face.

To go even further, unless the HM was present for the wedding, he would not be able to name the new Theon upon sight, and any of these men would have been recognized by someone at the wedding, I am sure.

[Cold Mist]

I like this idea, but doesn't Theon know who Osha is? He was there when she was captured, and she also bent the knee to him when he took over Winterfell. He seemed to remember her then. I don't think he would have mistaken her for a man that easily.

I understand your skepticism, but Theon was not exactly in the most stable of emotional states during most of ADWD. Many are prone to believe that he created the Hooded Man out of a fractured psyche. Why then would it be hard to believe that he would project onto an obscured person in a snowstorm?

Osha, for all of her promiscuous manipulative behavior as a chained serf at Winterfell, was as masculine as any knight in the books by true nature.

And then there is the butchery, the mystery butchery, of Little Walder to account for. Many want to believe some random Manderly did it. I say that the 'butchery' was not as it seems.

Little Walder stumbled upon Rickon at some chance encounter in the snow, and was savaged by a certain direwolf with a comically ridiculous name.

[Eyron]

:blushing: Oops ! I must have got that EVER from somewhere else..that'll teach me not to check !

All the same, I don't think BJ can be ruled out and ,the poor guys at Moat Cailin aside, there's no doubt that Theon was treated like one of the family by the Starks ..in some ways , moreso than Jon. That wasn't true of the Ironborn at MC , so it's really a farther stretch to use kinslayer in reference to them.

I don't think kinslaying can be used for describing a ward killing his hosts. Kinslaying is connected to a curse and comes from a very old custom. I don't think anyone would use it if it is not accurate.

He may feel like a kinslayer himself, so that speaks for the Theon meet Reek theory, unless the Ironborn slaughter counts.

The key to this equation is knowing what Luwin whispered to Osha before they 'left' Winterfell.

I don't know what it was any more than you do, but what I am sure of is that Bran took Osha for a man when he first saw her in the Wolfwood, and 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell'.

And that even the Greyjoy ward feared the lower crypts.

The hooded 'man' was no man.

The boy resides in a place where men break their fast on the flesh of men. Someone sing me a song about the about the Rat King.

I like the Osha = HM idea, she may have had reason to kill the Walder. And she sees things better than most people, she could have recognized Theon even as Reek.

But what about Shaggydog fighting a unicorn?

[uncle fester]

Good point. So, who would fit that bill?

A non-Westerosi perhaps?

Someone who has been gone many, many years?

Hmmmm....

A man?

[Michael Jon Snow]

Ok, here is my guess, FWIW.

I don't think it is Howland Reed, because the stature is wrong. Howland is small enough that it would have been noticed.

I don't think it is the Blackish as the time line doesn't work.

I don't think it is Sandor, because I think he has other roles to play.

While I kinda like the idea of the fractured personality, I don't think that it is right. I think there would have been another clue if that was what Martin intended. I guess I'd put that as an unlikely maybe.

I think that it is Galbert Glover. And here is why.

1. he left the twins ahead of the red wedding, so there has been plenty of time to get to Winterfell

2. He would have known about Theon and his betrayal of Robb. His attitude toward Theon would fit.

3. He it's of the right build and would have a passing knowlege of Winterfell.

Here is where it gets complicated.

4. Alysanne Mormont's knowlege that her sisters were with her mother and were safe indicates that there has been communication between that party and the Stark loyalists.

I think Maege and Galbert made it to GWW and with their help made it past Moat Kalin, and joined up with Lady Dustin. (Lady Dustin had been watching for people coming north) Either from there or from GWW, they contacted Manderly.

I think Galbert went on to Winterfell and Maege is raising the next Stark army.

[tearloch]

If you are putting forward that Osha, Rickon, and Shaggydog did not leave Winterfell, and have been hidding in the lower crypts, you leave out some very big gaps.

Wex followed 2 people and a very big wolf from Winterfell. Are we to believe he was lying? Why? Now, I personally find it out that Wex was able to track Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog undetected for probably a month or so (traveling by foot, at night, etc). I just don't see it. Also, I think the reaction of the spearwives to the accusation of killing Little Walder as enough for me to say no way would Osha do that. They may be savages, but in a way, their society is much more honorable than the one south of the wall, you know, where every time we turn around someone is betraying someone else....

I also don't buy that the HM is an Umber...the interaction seemed far too casual for an Umber (who seem like characatures in their presentation). An Umber, in my mind, would have crushed Theon with his bare hands for his perceived murder of the Stark boys. I don't find any pity in the Umber family.

I do think the possibility of Hallis Mollen is intriguing. GRRM seems to keep bringing up Ned's remains. They seem to be important. It was actually my tracing of the Hallis idea that got me onto Howland Reed as a candidate. If Hallis left Riverrun to go to Winterfell, it seems most likely that he got stopped at Moat Cailin, since the Ironborn invasion was on around that time. I mentioned that Reed's land is right next to Moat Cailin, and it makes sense that if Mollen tried to bypass Moat Cailin, then he would have ended up face to face with Howland (remember how they harassed the Ironborn?). Anyway, returning Ned's remains to Winterfell seems like the kind of thing one of his closest friends would take personally. I do hold the belief that Howland did not go south with Robb because he had some kind of green knowledge of having a different role in the fate of the north....Many also believe that Howland is the only living sole that knows the truth about Jon...the truth that Ned promised to tell Jon about. I was also able to convince myself that the Blackfish may also be involved with Howland at this point. After his escape from Riverrun, it makes sense that he followed the river...leading him near the Neck. Blackfish used to command the bloody gate in the Vale, which by the map is the closest point of the Vale to north (Howland Reed's land is the most southern part of Stark land). Ned was a ward in the Vale, and he seems like he was well known by the Blackfish...so I can make the leap in my head that Blackfish has some kind of relationship with Howland Reed...and what better place to hide out than a place that cannot be found (Greywater)? Also, Greywater is directly north of the Twins....seems like a good place to plot revenge on the Freys. I guess my point is that I can see Hallis, Howland, and Blackfish working together. The HM's speech seems so Blackfish...I mean Blackfish seems calm, cool, and collected. Letting Theon live in agony of the Boltons seems right up his alley. Killing off a Frey (brutally, I might add) seems up his alley. I think someone has been hiding out in the crypts of Winterfell. To me, a mission of Howland and Hallis (with or without Blackfish) to put Ned's remains to rest seems totally plausible. Once they get there, the Boltons show up, and they are stuck hiding. It doesn't seem like Howland (atleast of what we know of him) to kill a Frey boy, but that goes back to the assumption that the HM killed Little Walder, which may not be the case (I actually think Ramsay himself did it...try to get some action and new victims from a Stannis fight).

There is also the BenJen theory, which I also REALLY like. I don't buy that he is coldhands, AT ALL. GRRM brought in the secret tunnel. It seems logical that it has another purpose in the storyline other than getting Sam/Gilly south of wall and Bran et al north of the wall. Someone has used it recently, or will use it in the near future. I am also 100% on board with BenJen going to Winterfell is, in fact, NOT breaking his vows. His vows are to protect the realm. If his presence at Winterfell somehow maintains the magical strength in the wall in defense of the others, then I call that his duty. The HM also seems very BenJen like....calm, cool, collected. Letting Theon live shows his vows to the NW...he is no longer involved in the battles of the Starks, only the defense of the wall. This also requires that someone other than the HM killed Little Walder. Again, Ramsay is by guess, but it could have been Big Walder as well.

The final theory I give credit to (reluctantly) is the Davos Seaworth theory. Personally, with how I took the time span, Davos did not have time to get to Skagos, find / convince / rescue Rickon et al, get them somewhere safe, and then get to Winterfell. HM actions (speach, reaching for dagger) also sound like Davos in nature. I don't see Davos offing Freys, but I do see Davos trying to get word to Manderly that his mission is complete, cementing Manderly to Stannis' side, and helping to save Stannis' rear in the upcoming fight. What I don't know is what proof does Davos have? Are they the ones in the crypts? Or was Rickon et al really on Skagos at all? Maybe Luwin told them to go to Old Towne via Skagos to prevent being followed?

As much as I would love it to be Sandor, I don't think it is in his MO, especially since he KNOWS the Arya being married to the Bolton is fake.

[tearloch]

Ok, here is my guess, FWIW. I don't think it is Howland Reed, because the stature is wrong. Howland is small enough that it would have been noticed. I guess I'd put that as an unlikely maybe. I think that it is Galbert Glover. And here is why. 1. he left the twins ahead of the red wedding, so there has been plenty of time to get to Winterfell 2. He would have known about Theon and his betrayal of Robb. His attitude toward Theon would fit. 3. He it's of the right build and would have a passing knowlege of Winterfell. Here is where it gets complicated. 4. Alysanne Mormont's knowlege that her sisters were with her mother and were safe indicates that there has been communication between that party and the Stark loyalists. I think Maege and Galbert made it to GWW and with their help made it past Moat Kalin, and joined up with Lady Dustin. (Lady Dustin had been watching for people coming north) Either from there or from GWW, they contacted Manderly. I think Galbert went on to Winterfell and Maege is raising the next Stark army.

I keep seeing this stuff about the size of the HM. Please provide any quotes from the books that suggest the build of the HM. Is it becuase Theon and his eyes met? No offense, but I am pretty sure I could meet eyes with Shaquille O'Neal or Vern Troyer (mini-me from Austin Powers). Craggonmen as small in stature.....but are we talking Tyrion small? CoTF small? Or just not hulking Umber sized bruts? I picture them being 5 ft.....5'6" small....and that is not that extraordinary...especially when metting them one on one, in a snow storm, covered up in furs and cloaks....I guess you could also infer the same rationale for Sandor, since he is a monster to most not named Gregor(stein). Bran seems to take notice of JoJen and Meera's size because children are very aware of size...especially a child that cannot stand on his own now. I don't think adults take much notice of a persons size in a meeting, unless they are exceptionally small (Tyrion) or big (Gregor). I just take the craggonmen as being elf-like....being on the short side, but also wirie. And maybe Howland Reed is big for his people? I mean, he is their leader....good genes and all...maybe he has a couple of inches on the standard craggonman?

[MtnLion]

If the Hooded Man is Alliser Thorne, his hand may go to his dagger, at first being wary of someone not affiliated with Roose. Theon was still dressed in gold and black from the wedding, as a proper Ironborn. After having Theon explain that he was Ramsay's toy, and that he was not finished with him, leaving him to Ramsay seems like something that Alliser would do or say. It would give Alliser a chance to identify Mance to Roose, being there, that night.

[scurvy]

I'm shocked nobody agrees with me that it's Harwin. He know Theon and Winterfell. The Brotherhood has infiltrated Riverrun with Tom O Sevenstrings. Why not Winterfell too. He's killing Freys including the young, something in the Brotherhood's repertoire. Kill Freys and Lannisters. No real discrimination beyond that requirement especially Freys.

[MtnLion]

I'm shocked nobody agrees with me that it's Harwin. He know Theon and Winterfell. The Brotherhood has infiltrated Riverrun with Tom O Sevenstrings. Why not Winterfell too. He's killing Freys including the young, something in the Brotherhood's repertoire. Kill Freys and Lannisters. No real discrimination beyond that requirement especially Freys.

It is entirely possible, and that would put Lady Stoneheart closer to the Wall than I expected. I just don't get the impression that it is anybody that is Stark friendly, since Theon is allowed to live after being recognized.

[tearloch]

I'm shocked nobody agrees with me that it's Harwin. He know Theon and Winterfell. The Brotherhood has infiltrated Riverrun with Tom O Sevenstrings. Why not Winterfell too. He's killing Freys including the young, something in the Brotherhood's repertoire. Kill Freys and Lannisters. No real discrimination beyond that requirement especially Freys.

I kind of took Harwin as not being that loyal to the Starks when all was said and done. Arya seemed to be a pretty good natural judge of character, and she didn't seem to trust Harwin as much as I expected...

The Glover possibility is also intriguing...sorry it took me a while to hash it out in my head...so it may work.

[Miriel]

I think that it is Galbert Glover.

I think Maege and Galbert made it to GWW and with their help made it past Moat Kalin, and joined up with Lady Dustin. (Lady Dustin had been watching for people coming north) Either from there or from GWW, they contacted Manderly.

I think Galbert went on to Winterfell and Maege is raising the next Stark army.

Excellent point re: Lady Dustin watching for folks (and bones) to emerge from the Neck. Also, if the cranogman are on the move and have a plan w/ Manderley et al that explains why Roose had no trouble fom them whatsoever as they moved through the Neck (even though Roose seemed to be expecting such).

It also puts Robett Glover popping up in Manderley's dungeon in better perspective.

[Verboten]

Okay so the current theories are:

Sandor Clegane: the only one of th theories to be disproven by the books as he knows the real Arya

Theon and Reek have someone sharing their head: Not foreshadowed in any way but still plausible.

Galbert Glover: Actually makes the most sense assuming he didn't die in the war.

Harwin: Again makes sense.

Osha: Wex mentions following two figures with a wolf and Shaggy is on Skagos so unsure about this one.

Howland Reed: Plausible, HM's height is never mentioned

Hallis Moren: Makes a lot of sense.

Benjen Stark: Really depends on your interpretation of the character

Crowsfood Umber: Difficult to say.

Alliser Thorne: Interesting idea.

The Blackfish: I honestly can't see him staying his hand but it still has merit.

[tearloch]

You left out the Blackfish: ?? Would be fun..

On Crowsfoot, I just took the speech in the encounter as too elegant for any Umber. I would expect any Umber meeting Theon going like this:

"Theon?"

"Ah, why are you choking me."

"Hah, that is what you deserve!"

[MtnLion]

I am disappointed that you didn't include Alliser Thorne, Verboten.

[Eyron]

About Osha=HM

What about Shaggydog fighting with the unigoat (unicorn-goat) in Jons wolf dream?

Edit: didn't see mention of Shaggydog being at Skagos.

However, he would never leave Rickon.

[Verboten]

I am disappointed that you didn't include Alliser Thorne, Verboten.

Edited

[Aluminum Link]

Okay so the current theories are:

Sandor Clegane: the only one of th theories to be disproven by the books as he knows the real Arya

Theon and Reek have someone sharing their head: Not foreshadowed in any way but still plausible.

Galbert Glover: Actually makes the most sense assuming he didn't die in the war.

Harwin: Again makes sense.

Osha: Wex mentions following two figures with a wolf and Shaggy is on Skagos so unsure about this one.

Howland Reed: Plausible, HM's height is never mentioned

Hallis Moren: Makes a lot of sense.

Benjen Stark: Really depends on your interpretation of the character

Crowsfood Umber: Difficult to say.

Alliser Thorne: Interesting idea.

The Blackfish: I honestly can't see him staying his hand but it still has merit.

Poor Davos, forgotten by GRRM for the last 800 pages of the book, and now forgotten again :(