Hooded Man of Winterfell Part 2

[Conor]

Whoever said that it might be Benjen is actually spot on. We have been hearing that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell throughout the series. I think we should take it at face value.

There has to be a Stark at Winterfell, so it has to be Benjen! Simple powers of deduction. He sets up his 'demise' beyond the wall (maybe he was informed of what was about to happen, a talkative raven or the like) and headed over the wall.

But it has to be Benjen, there is no other candidate.

[Verboten]

Yes there are.

[Stark@heart]

If it is Benjen, He's been hanging out there way too long not to have done something we'd know about, like being with Bran and Co in the crypts and why would Rickon be sent off with a stranger when his uncle is right there and besides who would be better to lead Bran north to the 3 eyed crow? It would have been cool & fitting with the Stark in Winterfell but I just can't see the timeline working.

Besides

I've deducted that Benjen is Coldhands, so he can't get past the Wall to get to Winterfell.

[hotweaselsoup]

I can't see Benjen Stark letting the cold-blooded killer of his nephews go free. The reaction of the Hooded Man, for all his contempt of Theon, is too mild for someone who is a close blood relation to Bran and Rickon, imho. This kind of knocks out the Blackfish for me, too. I'm currently in the split-personality camp, but I also like the notion that Theon thinks the Hooded Man is a ghost (i.e., the HM is someone Theon thinks is dead), as this explains nicely why Theon is willing to show his flayed hand to the HM.

[tearloch]

Coldhands is mentioned as dying, or something, a LONG time ago....BenJen has been missing for, what, a year now? I really think that BenJen learned something north of the wall. He buried the obsidian weapons for Jon to find, then made his way to the secret underground passage beneath the wall, then on to Winterfell. He has been living in the crypts, but he arrived after Bran / Rickon left.....There is something to the link between magic IN the wall, and always having a Stark IN Winterfell....to much to just let it go. Since Bran/Rickon left, there has been no Stark in Winterfell. BenJen, learning something of this story, and possible a look at the future (from Bloodraven??) leaves the wall to defend it....meaning he did not desert the NW since he is defending the wall by being in Winterfell....

[tearloch]

I can't see Benjen Stark letting the cold-blooded killer of his nephews go free. The reaction of the Hooded Man, for all his contempt of Theon, is too mild for someone who is a close blood relation to Bran and Rickon, imho. This kind of knocks out the Blackfish for me, too. I'm currently in the split-personality camp, but I also like the notion that Theon thinks the Hooded Man is a ghost (i.e., the HM is someone Theon thinks is dead), as this explains nicely why Theon is willing to show his flayed hand to the HM.

IDK, if BenJen is at Winterfell for a purpose beyond his family, then I don't think him letting Theon live is too much...I mean if my theory is correct, then BenJen is still serving the NW, and his vows are that he left his family behind...so he is no longer a Stark. Also, do you Theon believes BenJen is dead? I think he knows he went missing from the wall? That could also mesh with the Ghosts of Winterfell thing....meaning that Theon is not frightened by a "ghost"....

[Yarl Snow]

I think there might have been foreshadowing of either the Blackfish or Sandor coming to the north with regard to Arya. Look at that scene in ASOS (see below). It conveys two things: 1. The Blackfish would not recognize Arya. 2. Sandor (knowing about the fake Arya) knows that the real Arya talked about making to the Wall. Now why would GRRM include these two unnecessary pieces of info? Just for another fruitless discussion with the Hound? Arya never makes for the north.

And both the Blackfish and Sandor could have good reasons to go to Winterfell: The Blackfish to rescue her, Sandor to reveal the fake Arya by stealing her away, or maybe he is there to make sure the right Arya doesn't stumble into Winterfell by accident. I totally disregarded the clue with the kicking horse of death: Yeah, totally Stranger! And the hooded guy wears a hood so GRRM can skip the part burnt face - for now. The way of talking fits with Sandor, and he has been to Winterfell before. And it might just be what Arya said about him being afraid that could be interesting. Everyone expects him to go kill his brother, but what if he just gave up on his fury and instead goes to save the girl he is (in a way) responsible for since he abducted her?

I re-read the passage, and found one thing I did not like for Sandor: The HM says "False is what you were." which I am having a very hard time seeing Sandor say. At least the old Sandor "The Hound" Clegane. Maybe a new and reformed Sandor might say something like that, but it sounds much more like something an honourable and proud knight would say, e.g. Blackfish, Ser Rodrik Cassel, or some other northman.

Also, there is the rather damaging information that Sandor did know that Bolton's Arya was fake. I recall Sandor being told about "Arya" going north to marry Ramsay, and Sandor laughing at that, Polliver/the Tickler asking what was funny, and he replied "If I'd wanted you to know, I'd have told you." all the while Arya was sitting right next to him. So there is no way he would be inside Winterfell trying to rescue her. To prevent her from going there, maybe. To steal the fake Arya, maybe. But it is not as strong a motivation as before.

I do like bemused's idea of someone Theon thinks is a ghost.

At first I thought that it was only that the HM recognised Theon..but now , I'm not so sure Theon didn't recognise the HM as well... Since he arrived in Winterfell Theon has been preoccupied with ghosts. At the wedding in the Godswood, we're told 'Winterfell was full of ghosts for Theon Greyjoy." In his next chapter.." There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought , and I am one of them." Later he thinks of the old ghosts from the crypts and the new ones he made. They're all here , he thinks.. and they're angry.( paraphrase)

He's already been talking to supernatural beings , and attempted to explain himself to them..the Old Gods which are not his own. He's also been thinking that death may be the best end for him. He also recognizes that Winterfell is the closest thing he's ever had to a home.

So I think it may explain a lot if he recognizes the HM, but as someone he assumes to be dead.It may explain why he's oddly unafraid ,why he willingly takes off his glove..no need to hide his humiliation from a dead man ( or to cover for Ramsey ). It would explain why he makes no mention of the HM to Roose and Lady Dustin when they question him. If the HM is at first surprised to find Theon still breathes, it may be Theon has no problem thinking of the HM as dead. That would narrow the field to someone who somehow survived Winterfell ,or the RW, but might leave out the Blackfish ,as he's known to have escaped. But would not leave out Benjen, since many people have presumed him to be dead for some time, and if he were alive, Theon would expect him to be at the Wall.

If it's Benjen though, I don't think his presence would be a simple desertion, but probably part of some mission for CotF and BR.

And although Bolton has the place sealed, I think Benjen ( once another adventurous boy ) probably knows about the other secret Bran knew about Winterfell ( GoT), the passage that runs inside the wall itself and emerges outside the walls...certainly not something someone from outside Winterfell would know.Bran was sure he was the only one who knew..so I'm sure it wasn't widely known.

I did notice when I re-read this that on the very next page, Theon is very reluctant to show his hands. He thinks something like It's not as bad as standing naked before them. Not as bad as that. It fits very well with Theon thinking he is seeing a ghost when faced with the HM.

I think Benjen is too far-fetched. It would rely on him being either an oathbreaker, or on some arcane magic that only he has knowledge of, or both.

Someone from Winterfell who survived the sack. We know Wex survived, and Bran and company, so it is not impossible. Or some northman. For a moment I was thinking of Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares, that Theon captured and killed.

I'm actually disappointed that Sandor feels so unlikely.

[ipsuel]

I don't think it's Benjen, but there may be Starks we aren't aware of there. I.e. The ghosts from the crypts. (Weak, I know).

I like the idea of Blackfish... but I must admit, I *love* the idea of Sandor. I had never considered it until reading it here, and it doesn't sound likely, but I like it nonetheless. So I guess it must be:

A. Someone who can recognize Theon, either from the wedding or from previous experience

B. Someone who would assume him to be dead (kinda ruling out anyone at the wedding, above)

C. Someone who came late to Winterfell (post-wedding, or was hiding/away during the wedding)

D. Someone who would think of Theon as a kinslayer (such as a Stark might) but also someone who Theon needs to tell he was Ironborn (Starks already know that, making them unlikely)

E. Someone he is not afraid of (And in fact, Theon moves on quite easily after the encounter)

F. Someone Theon felt comfortable enough with to WILLINGLY show his hand to, which is something we see him avoid like the plague thru the books.

Does anyone fit the above? My brain hurts lol!

[Slurms McKenzie]

You know who I think the hooded man is?

The Captain's Daughter........come to hunt down Theon and teach him a lesson............

[Heavy Horse]

How could anyone recognize him and NOT know he was Ironborn. I'm sure he was always introduced as a ward. Not like Ned would claim him as his own.

I never understood the kinslaying name. He was a ward, hostage, etc... and everyone treats him like he was a Stark. EVERYONE knows the name Greyjoy.

[ipsuel]

How could anyone recognize him and NOT know he was Ironborn. I'm sure he was always introduced as a ward. Not like Ned would claim him as his own.

I never understood the kinslaying name. He was a ward, hostage, etc... and everyone treats him like he was a Stark. EVERYONE knows the name Greyjoy.

Good point. So, who would fit that bill?

A non-Westerosi perhaps?

Someone who has been gone many, many years?

Hmmmm....

[bemused]

Yarl Snow...Of course , I don't say it has to be Benjen , but that it could be him is maybe not so far fetched as it might seem..no more than ,say , Coldhands finding Sam and Gilly in time.

Jon has "broken" his oath to serve a higher purpose , it's not impossible that Benjen would have done the same.

If he has had contact with CH / CotF / BR he may now have access to arcane knowledge of which he was previously ignorant.

Jon has come to the conclusion that the NW and it's oath must adapt radically to survive ..why couldn't BJ ?

Whenever I think about it, to see if I can rule him out , I don't find any ironclad reason ( and I keep finding interesting little hints that might fit BJ well ) .Now I'm interested that the HM says to Theon , " False is all you ever were." That George should use that word ( and I assume he does so purposely ) may be to imply that HM's acquaintance with Theon is a long one , that he has had or now has, with hindsight , a sense of the underlying resentment that clouded Theon's feelings of kinship to the Starks all along.

I don't think that if he's BJ he would necessarily kill Theon outright ( out of emotion )..he might not be sorry to see him suffer a little more..or may see him as having some purpose yet to serve.

[Theo1]

Could be Robet Glover comes to tell the north remembers conspirators that all is set outside the wall for some serious Frey and Bolton whoop ass. The guys seems to notice Theon, and know him, but is more interested in something else - a destination or purpose beyond Theon. He may know Theon (but for the abel plan) is about to get his when the trap is sprung.

[Yarl Snow]

Whenever I think about it, to see if I can rule him out , I don't find any ironclad reason ( and I keep finding interesting little hints that might fit BJ well ) .Now I'm interested that the HM says to Theon , " False is all you ever were." That George should use that word ( and I assume he does so purposely ) may be to imply that HM's acquaintance with Theon is a long one , that he has had or now has, with hindsight , a sense of the underlying resentment that clouded Theon's feelings of kinship to the Starks all along.

I don't think that if he's BJ he would necessarily kill Theon outright ( out of emotion )..he might not be sorry to see him suffer a little more..or may see him as having some purpose yet to serve.

In neither of my books does the HM say "ever were", just "False is all you were." Either you have a different edition, or you are mistaken.

I noticed this time that the HM makes his appearance just a little while before we hear the drums and horns of Crowfood Umber outside the walls. That seems to be rather a large coincidence. It would be logical if the HM was part of Umber's forces, sent in in advance to perform some specific task. This would explain his lack of knowledge about Theon. This would also imply that the horns and drums were meant as a distraction, otherwise it would be a bad idea to alert the enemy forces of their presence.

We know that the HM was not involved in the rescue, so if he was one of the Umbers, what was he there for?

[Eyron]

Okay so I think the Hooded man might be Howland Reed. His kids were at Winterfell when it was burned, he's gonna want to know what happened to them, we know that one of the Mormonts is back North again, possibly after finding Greywater Watch and it would kind of fit The Hooded Man's automatic reaction of wanting to kill Theon then deciding to let him suffer. He may also know what Theon looks like while he's assuming the persona of Reek due to the Moat Cailin fiasco but even I find it hard to believe that Reed was watching Theon from the shadows. Let your inner conspiracy theorist loose, that's what these threads are for.

I think there is a lot that speaks for this, Howland Reed was my second thought when I read this Theon chapter. First was of course Benjen and I don't know if I am ready to part with that theory/hope just yet :) Sandor has a lot going for him to, but I keep to my ideas on Howland Reed for now.

How does Howland Reed know anything about what goes on in the rest of the world? The ravens can't find his place in the Neck, and he can't be reached, if he wants to communicate he has to take initiative, or you go to the Neck and let yourself be captured. He must have spies or some help from Jojens (and other crannogmens?) visions. He knew to send Jojen and Meera to Winterfell because of Jojens vision according to said Jojen, now he could have had other visions, that we don't know of yet. Maybe Howland departed shortly after to follow another of these visions.

The HM must be someone who knows Theons look since his immediate response to seeing Theon is recognition, but he also have to recognize Theon as Reek or know that this Reek character that follows Ramsay is Theon. This could be a number of persons.

We don't know if Howland Reed ever saw Theon before, but he could have been informed of Theon and Reek and he could have spied him before in the Neck at Moat Cailin. Theon would not recognize him though.

Most male characters have swords, but the HM reaches for his dagger. I have the impression the crannogmen don't use swords so the natural instinct for Howland could be to use his dagger if he usually carries that, when taken unprepared.

He would probably know what Reek did to his fellow Ironmen leading them from Moat Cailin, tricking them to surrender to Ramsay who had them flayed. This could be the kinslaying and turncloaking that he meant, Theon is two-fold turncloak. I don't know if this could be regarded as kinslaying actually but it was a thought I had. I could also be that Howland thought that Theon died there too.

I am thinking that Howland could know Winterfell well to, he was Eddards good friend, which suggest he may have been there, and I think Howland would be a person that Ned, and Lyanna too perhaps, would confide in. If he ever came there after the Torney at Harrenhal.

Since Jojen had the dreams of Bran and Rickon being killed by Theon and Ramsay, he could also know that this would be prevented, we don't know exactly what Jojens dream contained. He had probably already seen more of the future that was to come (past Bran and Rickons supposed deaths) so one can say that maybe he tricked Bran. This could be known to Howland too.

[ipsuel]

<snip>

He would probably know what Reek did to his fellow Ironmen leading them from Moat Cailin, tricking them to surrender to Ramsay who had them flayed. This could be the kinslaying and turncloaking that he meant, Theon is two-fold turncloak. I don't know if this could be regarded as kinslaying actually but it was a thought I had. I could also be that Howland thought that Theon died there too.

<snip>

Not sure I agree about Howland Reed being the HM (I'll think on that), but I like this interpretation of kinslaying. I think that some characters may indeed see what Theon did to the Ironmen as kinslaying. I had never considered that!

[Eyron]

Not sure I agree about Howland Reed being the HM (I'll think on that), but I like this interpretation of kinslaying. I think that some characters may indeed see what Theon did to the Ironmen as kinslaying. I had never considered that!

:)

I'm not sure either, but Howland was my second guess at who it could be and these were the reasons. I like it better than the Theon psychosis theory, and I would be really surprised if Sandor has trotted all the way to Winterfell to save or reveal fake-Arya. But I like the Benjen theory most because he would be the Stark in Winterfell like it's suppose to be! And I think Benjen really could use those words, and maybe somehow know that Theon never killed Bran and Rickon. It clashes with my thoughts that Benjen is Coldhands though.

HM could be an Umber, a person that survived Winterfell, some Ironborn that infiltrated the Boltons or Freys or a BwB, even a Flint or Tallhart come to shake things up. Or maybe Wex, that got his speach back :D

But I think Howland Reed needs to show up already! How can a guy we know so little about, that haven't even appeared in the story be so bloody intriguing? I really want him to do something and show his quality :)

[bemused]

:blushing: Oops ! I must have got that EVER from somewhere else..that'll teach me not to check !

All the same, I don't think BJ can be ruled out and ,the poor guys at Moat Cailin aside, there's no doubt that Theon was treated like one of the family by the Starks ..in some ways , moreso than Jon. That wasn't true of the Ironborn at MC , so it's really a farther stretch to use kinslayer in reference to them.

[ViserionsFire]

Hallis Mollen was commanded by Catlyn Stark to take Ned’s remains to the crypt at Winterfell and has not been heard from since before the “Red Wedding”. He was a member of the household guard of Eddard Stark but may not have been prominent when at Winterfell prior to Ned going to Kings Landing. This may have made Hallis known to Theon but Hallis would not be known to any of the Northern Lords. The Hooded Man was certainly aware of who Theon was though, as would a member of the household guard of the Lord of Winterfell. On coming upon Theon, the man’s first reaction is to reach for his dagger, but Theon wasn’t afraid. Perhaps by not killing Theon at their meeting, Theon returned the favor and didn't blow the guy's cover. After the parting Theon didn’t seem to give the hooded man another thought.

[Yarl Snow]

Hallis Mollen was commanded by Catlyn Stark to take Ned’s remains to the crypt at Winterfell and has not been heard from since before the “Red Wedding”. He was a member of the household guard of Eddard Stark but may not have been prominent when at Winterfell prior to Ned going to Kings Landing. This may have made Hallis known to Theon but Hallis would not be known to any of the Northern Lords. The Hooded Man was certainly aware of who Theon was though, as would a member of the household guard of the Lord of Winterfell. On coming upon Theon, the man’s first reaction is to reach for his dagger, but Theon wasn’t afraid. Perhaps by not killing Theon at their meeting, Theon returned the favor and didn't blow the guy's cover. After the parting Theon didn’t seem to give the hooded man another thought.

That is an interesting thought. Theon and lady Dustin did have a conversation about Ned's bones, so evidently Martin is still keeping the bones in mind. And thereby also the fate of Hallis Mollen.

Mollen left from Riverrun, right? Seems like it must have been before the Ironmen invaded the north.