Do you think Ned loved Jon same as his trueborn children?

[ARYa_Nym]

If Ned had claimed Jon was Ashara Daynes bastard the Daynes would have almost certainly taken an interest in him. The Daynes who are a part of Dorne. The Daynes who are a part of Dorne which desperately wants to declare war on the Lannisters. If Jon is Rhaegars bastard you can probably see where I'm going with this.

There's only 2 left from Starfall. A little 13 year-old and Allyria. Ned never denied the Ashara rumors.The Daynes currently think that their former servant Wylla is his mother.

[ARYa_Nym]

Two possibilities I can think of are Varys and Littlefinger. They are both horrifically overinformed and good at making just these types of connections. At the moment, I would not be surprised if Varys is entirely aware of who Jon really is, and either it does not suit his purposes to reveal him, or it just hasn't suited them YET. Varys' spy system was already well in place by the time Jon was conceived and born. It is hard for me to imagine that his little birds somehow completely missed the fact that Lyanna was missing just long enough to bear a child, then died exactly at the end of that time period, and that shortly thereafter, her brother turned up with an unexplained infant and no one (not even the little birds) could find any evidence of a mother.

I am not sure what Varys' purpose would be for keeping this secret all these years. Keeping another Targ out of the way (given the unlikelihood of anyone else discovering his parentage, especially after Ned died) seems reasonable. He could also be keeping Jon on ice (as it were) in case things go awry with YG. If YG fails or is killed, here is another Targ of marriageable age who could be presented to Dany for consideration (if they can ever dislodge the Meereen fencepost from her ass).

That's what I'm saying. LF and Varys should have figured it out when it was obvious. If they had I doubt Jon would live to become an adult. This would have been the perfect opportunity for LF to get Ned executed earlier and to possibly start a war.

It's still unclear what Varys' motivations are. If he is indeed a Blackfyre supporter then I'd say that he's a danger to Jon and would probably want to see him eliminated if he did know. They used Viserys and Dany as diversions. Jon would be a threat to YG as Rhaegar's child.

[Dragonfish]

The Lannisters wouldn't have had a problem if Janos Slynt had been elected instead of Jon because Stannis wouldn't be successful with the NW.

The Lannisters would have had a problem with any Lord Commander who harbored Stannis, whether or not it was Jon Snow. Take Stannis and the whole civil war out of the equation, and Cersei wouldn't have cared who led the Night's Watch.

[ARYa_Nym]

The Lannisters would have had a problem with any Lord Commander who harbored Stannis, whether or not it was Jon Snow. Take Stannis and the whole civil war out of the equation, and Cersei wouldn't have cared who led the Night's Watch.

Right, it just happened to be Jon. The place where he was supposed to be safe turned out to be dangerous. It's treated as a prison of sorts so it's not really surprising. Criminals and people who would otherwise be exiled go there. I wonder if members of the NW killed the LC before Mormont as well.

[Dragonfish]

Right, it just happened to be Jon. The place where he was supposed to be safe turned out to be dangerous.

Ok, but all I'm trying to say is that Ned couldn't have foreseen this. Putting Jon in the Night's Watch seemed liked a reasonable way to keep him "out of sight" at the time.

[The Warrior Himself]

I think he did love Jon. Let's not forget that while Ned was in his cell in King's Landing he was thinking how he needed to talk to Jon. You can say this might be only to tell Jon about his parentage, but still, it seems like he really cares for Jon and wishes things were different.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ok, but all I'm trying to say is that Ned couldn't have foreseen this. Putting Jon in the Night's Watch seemed liked a reasonable way to keep him "out of sight" at the time.

He really didn't stop to think. I don't think he really made concrete plans for any of his children until Robert came to Winterfell.

[Dragonfish]

He really didn't stop to think. I don't think he really made concrete plans for any of his children until Robert came to Winterfell.

I don't think there is any support for this. We are never told if Ned did or did not have any other plans for his children. If Ned seemed unsure and hesitant about what to do with them early in AGoT, it may only have been because Robert was forcing him to alter any plans he may have had.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

That's what I'm saying. LF and Varys should have figured it out when it was obvious. If they had I doubt Jon would live to become an adult. This would have been the perfect opportunity for LF to get Ned executed earlier and to possibly start a war.

It's still unclear what Varys' motivations are. If he is indeed a Blackfyre supporter then I'd say that he's a danger to Jon and would probably want to see him eliminated if he did know. They used Viserys and Dany as diversions. Jon would be a threat to YG as Rhaegar's child.

I have never seen why LF does half the things he does, I don't think he knows himself sometimes, so I am not able to speculate on why he would have kept the secret if he knew it. But, this (IMO) is one that Varys likely does know, that LF does not. LF relies more on well-placed and unassuming garden variety spies for his info. IMO Varys is another thing altogether ... I am not convinced he is not a warlock or magician of some sort himself (Illyrio says he is "a true sorcerer), in addition to his ulcer-inducing ability to find out stuff no one else knows via his aviary system.

As far as Varys' possible reasons for keeping Jon's secret, all I can do is point to the possibilities I have already mentioned, as well as this: during the secret chat between Varys and Illyrio that Arya overheard, the two men were in desperate agreement that the time was not yet ripe to allow war to break out. They were almost frantic to delay somehow. I can't think of a better way for them to have hurried things along than to disclose Jon's parentage - more than enough reason to shut up. They both were waiting for many pieces to be in place before letting all hell break loose, especially YG being completely prepared for his role. I suppose Jon could have just met with am unfortunate accident, but I believe Varys has his reasons for wanting Jon alive and well and situated right where he is. Also, during that chat Illyrio urges the murder of Ned to slow things down, and Varys flat refuses. I truly believe he desperately wanted Ned to live.

One theory: knowing of the dissension between Robert and Ned regarding Dany, Varys is betting (and hoping, with some justification) that Ned (and therefore a good deal of the north) will come down on the Targ's side when the poop hits the fan. How to accomplish that? Have another little midnight meet with Ned at the appropriate time, and point out that Ned has two choices: join the Targs against Robert, or watch his sister's son hunted down and butchered by his good friend King Robert. Up to that point, Jon was the ace up Varys' sleeve to ensure they had Winterfell and its more loyal bannermen on their side when the time came to start turning the screws. It is a good enough reason to keep both Ned and Jon alive, especially given the low-to-zero likelihood of anyone else finding out about the ace and using it first.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think there is any support for this. We are never told if Ned did or did not have any other plans for his children. If Ned seemed unsure and hesitant about what to do with them early in AGoT, it may only have been because Robert was forcing him to alter his plans.

I said concrete plans. He still could have said no especially after the Bran and Lady incidents but he made up his mind to be Robert's hand.

He really didn't say much to Cat when she said that she will not have him. If I recall correctly it was Maester Luwin who said the watch. I don't remember him bringing up other options. He said no to KL but didn't bring up anything else.

[Dragonfish]

I said concrete plans not no plans at all. He still could have said no especially after the Bran and Lady incidents but he made up his mind to be Robert's hand.

Ok, sure, he probably didn't have any "concrete plans" (which I assume to mean "arrangements") for his children except Robb, but they were all still fairly young at this point. And just because he hadn't made any definite arrangements yet doesn't mean he didn't have something planned for them.

He really didn't say much to Cat when she said that she will not have him. If I recall correctly it was Maester Luwin who said the watch.

It would have been interesting to see Ned's thought process during this scene. If only we could know what exactly was going through his head at the time...

[ARYa_Nym]

Ok, sure, he probably didn't have any "concrete plans" (which I assume to mean "arrangements") for his children except Robb, but they were all still fairly young at this point. And just because he hadn't made any definite arrangements yet doesn't mean he didn't have something planned for them.

It would have been interesting to see Ned's thought process during this scene. If only we could know what exactly was going through his head at the time...

I definitely think he did due to his convo to Arya about being a Lady one day.

"He and Robb are close," Ned said. "I had hoped..." "He cannot stay here...I will not have him..."...Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself...Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems teh boy aspires to take the black." Ned looked shocked...Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind...Yet gladly she would have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. "

Oooh, and Ned even agrees with me lol.

"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would one thing, but a boy of fourteen..."

It seemed like he wanted Jon to stay with Robb. He knew that Cat didn't like Jon though. I mean he grew up without her saying his name so he should have come up with another option outside of Winterfell. & he actually felt that Jon was too young for the NW.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Ned did love Jon, just in a different way than he did his own children. There had to be some level of love and affection there, or he could have easily turned the baby over to Robert or pawned him off on some lesser household. As perverse as it is, I also think that allowing Cat to treat Jon like a bastard might itself have been done out of love. If Ned stopped her or told her the truth, people might wonder why Cat would treat her husband's bastard better. Cat treats Jon the way you'd expect her to, which prevents suspicions, which ends up keeping Jon safe.

As for sending Jon to the Wall, I think Ned thought that he'd be with Benjen and have the chance for personal advancement that he'd never get down south. Ned also probably never dreamed that there'd be that level of dynastic shakeup, and thought that Jon's parentage would always remain a secret. Given that, Jon really had nothing to lose by joining the Watch.

[Shaggydog Stark]

There is no question that Ned loved Jon. He lived a lie for fourteen years for Jon's sake, after all and besmirched his honor by pretending to have fathered a bastard son. He hurt his marriage by bringing Jon home to live with him and lived his life having nightmares, all for Jon.

The main reason I don't think he took him to KL as a squire is because Jon's presence would raise questions about his mother as it had done in Winterfell. At some point someone would remember Ashara Dayne and that she was from Dorne. Somebody might connect the dots, isn't that where Rhaegar took Lyanna fourteen years ago? Isn't that Jon's age? It was too dangerous.

Ned originally had intended for Jon to remain at Winterfell once he headed for KL. This is obvious from his conversation with Cat. It is Cat's unwillingness to cooperate with him on this issue that forces Ned's hand.

Then there is the another fact to consider and I hate to say this but it must be said. It was a huge risk for Jon to marry someday and have children. Jon may look like a Stark but he carries the genes of both Starks and Targs. What would have happened if he had children with silver blond hair and purple eyes? Probably, he and his children would have been murdered. The Wall was the best place for him because it took care of that problem too.

[ARYa_Nym]

I

As for sending Jon to the Wall, I think Ned thought that he'd be with Benjen and have the chance for personal advancement that he'd never get down south. Ned also probably never dreamed that there'd be that level of dynastic shakeup, and thought that Jon's parentage would always remain a secret. Given that, Jon really had nothing to lose by joining the Watch.

I think everyone who joins loses.

"You don't know what you're asking, Jon. The Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor...You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up...If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price son." Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity."

I have never seen why LF does half the things he does, I don't think he knows himself sometimes, so I am not able to speculate on why he would have kept the secret if he knew it. But, this (IMO) is one that Varys likely does know, that LF does not. LF relies more on well-placed and unassuming garden variety spies for his info. IMO Varys is another thing altogether ... I am not convinced he is not a warlock or magician of some sort himself (Illyrio says he is "a true sorcerer), in addition to his ulcer-inducing ability to find out stuff no one else knows via his aviary system.

As far as Varys' possible reasons for keeping Jon's secret, all I can do is point to the possibilities I have already mentioned, as well as this: during the secret chat between Varys and Illyrio that Arya overheard, the two men were in desperate agreement that the time was not yet ripe to allow war to break out. They were almost frantic to delay somehow. I can't think of a better way for them to have hurried things along than to disclose Jon's parentage - more than enough reason to shut up. They both were waiting for many pieces to be in place before letting all hell break loose, especially YG being completely prepared for his role. I suppose Jon could have just met with am unfortunate accident, but I believe Varys has his reasons for wanting Jon alive and well and situated right where he is. Also, during that chat Illyrio urges the murder of Ned to slow things down, and Varys flat refuses. I truly believe he desperately wanted Ned to live.

One theory: knowing of the dissension between Robert and Ned regarding Dany, Varys is betting (and hoping, with some justification) that Ned (and therefore a good deal of the north) will come down on the Targ's side when the poop hits the fan. How to accomplish that? Have another little midnight meet with Ned at the appropriate time, and point out that Ned has two choices: join the Targs against Robert, or watch his sister's son hunted down and butchered by his good friend King Robert. Up to that point, Jon was the ace up Varys' sleeve to ensure they had Winterfell and its more loyal bannermen on their side when the time came to start turning the screws. It is a good enough reason to keep both Ned and Jon alive, especially given the low-to-zero likelihood of anyone else finding out about the ace and using it first.

LOL. IDK, I feel like Jon was never on Varys' radar. I believe in the cells with Ned he still calls him a bastard. IA that he wanted Ned to live though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then there is the another fact to consider and I hate to say this but it must be said. It was a huge risk for Jon to marry someday and have children. Jon may look like a Stark but he carries the genes of both Starks and Targs. What would have happened if he had children with silver blond hair and purple eyes? Probably, he and his children would have been murdered. The Wall was the best place for him because it took care of that problem too.

That's actually a really good point that I hadn't even considered yet.

I think everyone who joins loses.

*shrugs* That's a matter of opinion and really has no bearing on why Ned would allow Jon to join or how he would view it.

[ARYa_Nym]

*shrugs* That's a matter of opinion and really has no bearing on why Ned would allow Jon to join or how he would view it.

Both Benjen and Ned thought that he was too young to make such a sacrifice. If we go by Benjen's comments it sounds like he regrets not being able to have a family.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Both Benjen and Ned thought that he was too young to make such a sacrifice. If we go by Benjen's comments it sounds like he regrets not being able to have a family.

Benjen was also a legitimate son, not legally a bastard and certainly not the secret lovechild of Rhaegar Targaryen. So I don't think Benjen's sacrifice is really on the same level as Jon's. Benjen had more to gain by not joining the Wall than Jon.

[Shaggydog Stark]

That's actually a really good point that I hadn't even considered yet.

Thanks. It just occurred to me that were that ever to happen it would definitely blow the whole Wylla cover story and be known for a lie, so it is a huge risk and those colorings in Westeros at least are considered to be Targ features.

People would wonder why Ned would have to lie about Wylla being Jon's mother, if she were really Ashara Dayne. After all Ashara Dayne is "dead", so why lie about Jon's mother unless it was neither Ashara Dayne nor Wylla but someone else. It could lead to all sorts of questions and problems and before too long someone would figure out, just like we the readers did ;).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thanks. It just occurred to me that were that ever to happen it would definitely blow the whole Wylla cover story and be known for a lie, so it is a huge risk and those colorings in Westeros at least are considered to be Targ features.

People would wonder why Ned would have to lie about Wylla being Jon's mother, if she were really Ashara Dayne. After all Ashara Dayne is "dead", so why lie about Jon's mother unless it was neither Ashara Dayne nor Wylla but someone else. It could lead to all sorts of questions and problems and before too long someone would figure out, just like we the readers did ;).

Yep, I agree. I wish we knew what Wylla looked like. Part of the reason I think Ned allowed the Ashara rumor to survive is that the Daynes share some basic Targ features, like the eyes. So if Jon did grow up to have violet eyes, everyone would just be able to say that he'd inherited them from Ashara.