Why do people like Stannis.. I don't get it?

[LuisDantas]

I do not think Stannis slept with Melisandre, I think her referring to the bed not seeing use refers to her not sleeping in it because she doesn't need sleep (being so magical or undead or what have you). It is just so out of character for Stannis to sleep around, but I don't know how shadow babies are made, maybe they come by a dark stork lol.

Well, from Chapter 25 (Davos) of ASOS, we have

Melisandre stating that Stannis has been so drained by the birth of the killer shadows that she fear that a new attempt might kill him. And then she asks Davos to come to her chamber to use his "life-fire" instead of Stannis'. She even offers him "pleasure such as (he has) never known".

There are other ways of interpreting Melisandre's request, I suppose. It is even possible that she is lying. But what are we supposed to make of that?

[JKeats]

I can accept these as reasons for more sympathy for Selyse, she hasn't had things so easy as others, but she behaves rather poorly most of the time, and it is off-putting.

I do not think Stannis slept with Melisandre, I think her referring to the bed not seeing use refers to her not sleeping in it because she doesn't need sleep (being so magical or undead or what have you). It is just so out of character for Stannis to sleep around, but I don't know how shadow babies are made, maybe they come by a dark stork lol.

Mel invites Davos to spend a night with her, promising him "pleasure such as [he has] never know." I mean, hell I'd be down for it. But the point is, sex is obviously involved in the making of the shadow assassins.

As for Selyse, I'm holding out hope that she is not such a bad person after all. Kind of a vain hope, since she is not likely to get much more page space in which to develop as a character.

[Horik of House Carl]

Stannis is the exact opposite of Littlefinger. Whereas Littlefinger is the Lord of Bullsh*t, Stannis has zero tolerance for BS.

It's no accident that Davos is his closest advisor. Stannis doesn't have patience for BS and Davos is a straight-shooter. In general Stannis is a very impatient. He wants done immediately and doesn't want to hear any crappy excuses.

Stannis doesn't really have any emotions. This allows him to listen to people he might not initially agree with. He judges things based on merit rather than self-interest. He generally makes sound decisions but sometimes his impatience gets in into real trouble.

Stannis reminds me of your typical modern-day CEO. If you've ever watched the TV show "The Apprentice", you will notice that the winners are often described as "robotic" or "lacking personality". The reason for this is that in order to succeed in the modern business world you have to be incredibly focused. Stannis is boring because he is so incredibly focused on his goals. Richard Nixon would be a perfect Stannis... perhaps GRRM modeled Stannis after Nixon.

[Queen Cersei I]


 Really, people? We can't even ask someone what they meant before the sarcasm-loaded diatribes?



Perhaps you should take your own advice. Because if you would have, I could have told you that my point was not that Selyse was awesome. It was that while far from admirable, Selyse has led a life that is fairly pitiable. Rather she is entitled to pity after his misdeeds is a matter up for debate.

However, I’m tired of everyone frequently making nasty comments about her, treating her as inhuman, and making intense outpourings of sympathy for Stannis for being married to her. Indeed, he was unfortunate for the match—however, Selyse was at least equally so, if not more. The difference is that Stannis has his work, his power, and many other things to occupy him even if he’s unhappy in his wife. Not so Selyse.

As an ugly female who disgusts her husband, Selyse automatically fails at the two primary duties for women in Westeros—pleasing one’s husband and childbearing. Selyse has failed at both of these; besides the husband who is repulsed by her, all she has is her lonely home on Dragonstone, one little girl, and few friends or comforts. All of Westeros mocks her for her ugliness, and on some level she must realize this. So, yeah, I’d say that if Stannis deserves such sympathy for this marriage, then Selyse may be entitled to just a bit to, on this issue alone.


OMG, Alcanis did not say a word about Selyse's appearance. Really, people? We can't even ask someone what they meant before the sarcasm-loaded diatribes?






Really? Let me quote Alcanis’s statement. “He endured Selyse for 12+ years. He slept with Selyse and is still alive.” Nothing about Selyse’s appearance? One wonders how else to interpret the sentence, “He slept with Selyse and is still alive.”

If Alcanis had simply said the first part, I would have ignored it and let the matter lie. After all, as you’ve pointed out extensively (though not always completely accurately) in your post, Selyse is an unpleasant and unsympathetic person. Hell, even if he’d said something about Selyse being horrible and ugly to boot, I would have ignored it. But this is simply the 100^th nasty, sarcastic comment made about Selyse’s physical unattractiveness. Again, wouldn’t have such a huge problem, however, I’m sick of Selyse being presented as inhuman, and people making nasty jokes and implying that Stannis deserves a medal for sleeping with her.




Selyse could outshine Dany in beauty and still be a terrifying, offputting, morally disgusting woman.

.


Right, and your point would be wonderfully valid, were it not for the fact that insults towards and comments about Selyse are almost never about her personality, and always, always, always about her physical appearance. In fact, I honestly can’t recall a time where her personality was even mentioned. It’s not even as though both are mentioned—it is always just Selyse’s ugliness.

Again—whatever. But in a series of books that frequently insists that all is morally ambiguous, it’s not just what we do, it’s why we do it, etc., I simply thought it would be worth pointing out the fact that Selyse's actions may be have motivations behind them besides mustache induced craziness.




has no sympathy or empathy or concern for anyone or anything except *maybe* her daughter

Well, you’re in luck, Lady, because apparently, if I know these books, she doesn’t even feel that! Selyse will almost surely end up encouraging Stannis to burn their daughter at the ending of the next book. Just like the one dimensional plot device… erm, I mean, “truly morally disgusting” woman that she is!




, and has been just as ugly to Stannis as he has been to her.



.


While you make some decent points re: Selyse’s nasty personality and lack of empathy (which, by the by, are not focused on 1/8 so much by either readers or the text itself than Selyse’s ugliness, but whatever) you could not be more wrong on this one. Indeed, what is painfully clear throughout every scene they share, besides Selyes’s intense denial re: her husband and Mel, her religious fanaticism, and her general craziness, is her rather pathetic desire to earn her husband’s acceptance/ approval and bear him the son she clearly feels she owes him. IMO, it’s fine if you (an most others) just straight up can’t pity her, for her cruelty and callousness. However, to say that she shows anywhere near the amount of indifference, physical disgust, or dismissal that Stannis shows for her in EVERY scene they’re in together would be ridiculous.

Indeed, one might wonder what Selyse might have been like had she had some people who cared about her in her life, or a husband who at least tried to be kind and polite and friendly to her. IMO, the text would probably send the message (as it does with Cersei, Shae, Lysa etc. Al) that Selyse has always been brittle, stupid, cold, cruel, devoid of empathy, and shallow. However, personally, it’s hard to believe that anyone, even the kindest person, would not be affected in some way by the lonely life she’s led. Personally, I wouldn’t wish her situation on my worst enemy.




She is a religious fanatic of the worst sort, favors and encourages burnings as sacrifice, has no sympathy or empathy or concern for anyone or anything

“The worst kind of fanatic”? As opposed to what, the best kind of fanatic? Fanaticism, religious or otherwise, is generally unpleasant at best, incredibly dangerous at worst. And yes, I agree—Selyse’s fanaticism is annoying, disturbing, and, imo, ominous (if she doesn’t end up encouraging Stan to burn Shireen, I’ll eat my shoes.)

However, while undoubtedly a fanatic, I disagree that Selyse comes across as “the worst kind of fanatic.” Selyse strikes someone who has dealt with her loneliness, isolation, lack of purpose, low self worth and great disappointments in life have led her to take shelter in an intense form of religion. Far from admirable, and not an excuse—but again, also a little bit sad as well.

[Slychd]

Mel invites Davos to spend a night with her, promising him "pleasure such as [he has] never know." I mean, hell I'd be down for it. But the point is, sex is obviously involved in the making of the shadow assassins.

As for Selyse, I'm holding out hope that she is not such a bad person after all. Kind of a vain hope, since she is not likely to get much more page space in which to develop as a character.

"pleasure such as [he has] never know." - it could be sex, or it could be some other type of pleasure that Davos never imagined, we can't know because he didn't participate. I might come off as being stubborn about this, but I can't see Stannis sleeping around. It is just outside of his character.

[Raksha the Demon]

He's basically Inspector Javert IN SPACE on Westeros.

He hold Davos in higher esteem than highborn lords.

He prefers to hear the truth, even if it's unpleasant.

He has sarcasm.

He can sire shadow assassins.

He is the rightful king.

He's Genre Savvy enough to know how screwed they all are just because they're on Westeros. Besides him, only Sandor seems to be this realistic.

He defends the realm while other kings are busy backstabbing each other.

He endured Selyse for 12+ years. He slept with Selyse and is still alive.

He survived on rats.

He will never give up.

But as to nobody loves him?

Davos definitely does, and his deep loyalty and love and respect is what Stannis never got from other people.

I think Stannis wishes Davos were his brother, or wishes that his brothers were like Davos - honest, smart, not afraid to give Stannis advice he doesn't want to hear, or act as his conscience (because Stannis is perfectly willing to sacrifice, or bury, his conscience in order to raise a wind or a dragon or whatever)...

[ARYa_Nym]

I definitely think that Stannis slept with Mel. She also wanted to try it with Jon.

"She walked as close to Jon Snow as she dared, close enough to feel the mistrust pouring off him like a black fog. He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning..."

I think she's glamoring herself so who knows how old she really is or what she really looks like.

On topic, I started to like him somewhat because he's funny and is trying to help the realm. At the same time I find him to be extremely annoying.

[LuisDantas]

Stannis is boring because he is so incredibly focused on his goals. Richard Nixon would be a perfect Stannis... perhaps GRRM modeled Stannis after Nixon.

The resemblance is notable, although there are many other names that also come to mind. But I would use other word instead of "focused".

[JKeats]

"pleasure such as [he has] never know." - it could be sex, or it could be some other type of pleasure that Davos never imagined, we can't know because he didn't participate. I might come off as being stubborn about this, but I can't see Stannis sleeping around. It is just outside of his character.

I don't think Stannis and Mel have been having a full blown affair. There have been two shadow assassins so far, so it seems they have had sex at least twice. Goodness knows what the actual sex was like, maybe some elaborate ceremony with spells and magic and weird freakyness all over. I doubt it was "lovemaking".

The line in ADwD about Mel's bed going unused strongly hints at a sexual affair between the two, but then again, that same chapter makes it clear Mel doesn't need to sleep the way other people do. Perhaps with Stannis and his army away, she feels she can dispense with some of the pretense.

[Catastrophe]

I think that it's very clear that Stannis slept with Melisandre. That's how the shadow children are born, it's all but outright stated in the second and third books.

However- and this is where I disagree with most other readers- I think he did it solely because he needed to in order to make Melisandre's magic work. I don't think he took any pleasure in the act whatsoever, or even any pride in "banging a hot chick." He was just "doing his duty" with her, just as he does with Selyse. I also think it's clear that their "affair" ended as soon as Stannis stopped being able to produce shadow children, hence why she was trying to seduce Davos.

If it helps any, I personally think that Selyse allowed and even encouraged Stannis to sleep with Melisandre, in which case he wouldn't really be betraying her.

[Pod's Sty]

I don't care about how ugly Selyse is. That is irrelevant in my opinion. What matters is that she is an intolerant religious fanatic who has no problem burning human beings alive, including her own flesh and blood. I dislike her as much as I dislike Melisandre, and they are at opposite ends of the spectrum on physical beauty.

[Raksha the Demon]

She actually tries to get rid of it frequently, but it just grows back all the time (as per the ACoK Prologue IIRC).

If Stannis really wanted to try to get a male heir, he could have sex with Selyse with the lights out; it might even add some mystery and be a bit fun. Of course, Stannis doesn't do 'fun'.

I wonder if something went wrong fairly early in their marriage, something so big that Stannis can't stand to be around Selyse for long, not to mention spend any time with their daughter. He barely talks to Selyse. I'll admit that she's not the most pleasant person, but was she always that way? She seems to hoard resentment about the conception of Edric Storm during her wedding celebration, but Edric isn't even Stannis' bastard, he's Robert's; isn't it time to let that go?

I'm not sure that the marriage problems between Stannis and Selyse are just that she's homely; Kevan Lannister (another younger brother to a powerful man) loves a wife who isn't beautiful; and I think Davos mentioned in his thoughts that his wife wasn't gorgeous but he does love her. Unless Stannis is just as obsessive about marriage/women as he is about other things, wanting the best in terms of physical form/beauty. He was ticked off about getting a domain he viewed as second-place to Renly's, when he accomplished far more than Renly for Robert during the Rebellion. Maybe he wanted a gorgeous bride? After all, Robert got one of the most beautiful girls in the Seven Kingdoms.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think that it's very clear that Stannis slept with Melisandre. That's how the shadow children are born, it's all but outright stated in the second and third books.

However- and this is where I disagree with most other readers- I think he did it solely because he needed to in order to make Melisandre's magic work. I don't think he took any pleasure in the act whatsoever, or even any pride in "banging a hot chick." He was just "doing his duty" with her, just as he does with Selyse. I also think it's clear that their "affair" ended as soon as Stannis stopped being able to produce shadow children, hence why she was trying to seduce Davos.

If it helps any, I personally think that Selyse allowed and even encouraged Stannis to sleep with Melisandre, in which case he wouldn't really be betraying her.

I think so too. For Stannis, it's all business and not emotional.

[LuisDantas]

I don't disagree. Although I don't see Stannis as the most sincere of people when it comes to himself.

[Pod's Sty]

If Stannis really wanted to try to get a male heir, he could have sex with Selyse with the lights out; it might even add some mystery and be a bit fun. Of course, Stannis doesn't do 'fun'.

I wonder if something went wrong fairly early in their marriage, something so big that Stannis can't stand to be around Selyse for long, not to mention spend any time with their daughter. He barely talks to Selyse. I'll admit that she's not the most pleasant person, but was she always that way? She seems to hoard resentment about the conception of Edric Storm during her wedding celebration, but Edric isn't even Stannis' bastard, he's Robert's; isn't it time to let that go?

I'm not sure that the marriage problems between Stannis and Selyse are just that she's homely; Kevan Lannister (another younger brother to a powerful man) loves a wife who isn't beautiful; and I think Davos mentioned in his thoughts that his wife wasn't gorgeous but he does love her. Unless Stannis is just as obsessive about marriage/women as he is about other things, wanting the best in terms of physical form/beauty. He was ticked off about getting a domain he viewed as second-place to Renly's, when he accomplished far more than Renly for Robert during the Rebellion. Maybe he wanted a gorgeous bride? After all, Robert got one of the most beautiful girls in the Seven Kingdoms.

I think Stannis is just not comfortable around women period. He honestly strikes me as having a case of Asperger's Syndrome. Just a very awkward, nonromantic kind of guy.

[Slychd]

If I were Selyse, I would just throw some glitter on my moustache and go dancing.

[Horik of House Carl]

The resemblance is notable, although there are many other names that also come to mind. But I would use other word instead of "focused".

Here's a good description of Nixon:

... to sketch Nixon's rise to power. He was an intense, driven young man, who, although a loner, took leadership in every setting he entered. He compiled an outstanding record in college and law school, married his attractive and popular wife, Pat, achieved success in law practice and the navy, and rose quickly after WWII to national prominence, first in the House of Representatives, then the Senate, followed by the vice presidency under Dwight Eisenhower. His defeats in the 1960 presidential election and in the 1962 California gubernatorial election revealed another aspect of his personality: his unwillingness--perhaps inability--to accept defeat.

The last line reminds me of GRRM's description that Stannis will "break before he bends".

[ARYa_Nym]

"You are fond of Val?" "I scarcely know her." "They tell me she is comely." "Very," Jon admitted. "Beauty can be treacherous. My brother learned that lesson from Cersei Lannister. She murdered him, do not doubt it. Your father and Jon Arryn as well." He scowled."

Stannis seemed to mistrust beauty. I wonder why this didn't extend to Melisandre. I suppose she's loyal to him now. I don't know if she will remain that way. & I think the shadowbabies deteriorated his health.

[Horik of House Carl]

Here's another description of Nixon which reminds me of Stannis:

Nixon had a complex personality, both very secretive and awkward, yet strikingly reflective about himself. He was inclined to distance himself from people and was formal in all aspects, wearing a coat and tie even when home alone. Nixon biographer described him as being "driven" though also "uneasy with himself in some ways". According to Black, Nixon "thought that he was doomed to be traduced, double-crossed, unjustly harassed, misunderstood, underappreciated, and subjected to the trials of Job, but that by the application of his mighty will, tenacity, and diligence, he would ultimately prevail". Biographer Elizabeth Drew summarized Nixon as a "smart, talented man, but most peculiar and haunted of presidents". In his account of the Nixon presidency, author Richard Reeves described Nixon as "a strange man of uncomfortable shyness who functioned best, alone with his thoughts". Nixon's presidency was doomed by his personality, Reeves argues: "He assumed the worst in people and he brought out the worst in them ... He clung to the idea of being 'tough'. He thought that was what had brought him to the edge of greatness. But that was what betrayed him. He could not open himself to other men and he could not open himself to greatness.

[mediocre cheese]

Stannis doesn't really have any emotions. This allows him to listen to people he might not initially agree with. He judges things based on merit rather than self-interest. He generally makes sound decisions but sometimes his impatience gets in into real trouble.

I think this is 100% misreading and whitewashing. Stannis has very strong emotions, as others have said, his bitterness, his desires to be loved, his jealousy of Robert. All of which are understandable (but not admirable). He judges things by self-interest just as much as any character in the book, not on merit. You think Imry florent got made admiral of his fleet based on merit? I think his decisions are generally awful but leaving that aside, whether they are good or bad, they are colored not by lack of emotion, but by the same mix of ambitions/desires that color every other character in the books. Stannis often has a hard time conveying his emotions, which is why he lets them out all at once in several davos chapters, but its not like he lacks them.

Stannis reminds me of your typical modern-day CEO. If you've ever watched the TV show "The Apprentice", you will notice that the winners are often described as "robotic" or "lacking personality". The reason for this is that in order to succeed in the modern business world you have to be incredibly focused. Stannis is boring because he is so incredibly focused on his goals. Richard Nixon would be a perfect Stannis... perhaps GRRM modeled Stannis after Nixon.

No offense, but this post seems to indicate a lack of familiarity with actual CEOs. The apprentice is a show, the winners don't really get anything, nor are the contestants representative of anything other than trying to get ratings. The only actual CEO on screen is Trump, who is the opposite of a robot, and is buffoonish in his over the top persona. In order to succeed in the business world, you have to tremendous people skills, the key is working with people. Nearly all ceos (the exception being those who founded their own companies) are described as being personally gregarious and charismatic. Someone like stannis, would flail out of the modern corporate environment quite rapidly, his rudeness would poorly rub off on his coworkers, his lack of deference would piss his boss off and anti-fun attitude wouldn't help him at office socials.

Nixon is the exception to the rule, every other president of the modern era (Kennedy, Johnson, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama) are described as being personally likeable and generally amiable.

IMO, the guy who'd be the equivalent to the modern day ceo/politician is renly. He's charming to those around him, gives off the impression of being in agreement, (even when he's not) generally is solicitous in other's wellbeing (even when he probably doesn't care about the individual in question in the slightest). A modern day stannis would likely be the type of high school teacher most kids hate (because he'd be a stickler for the rules, personally rude, and bitter that his genius wasn't fully appreciated), but a few devoted students (the davos's of the class) love. So basically Walter White.