Why do people like Stannis.. I don't get it?

[Queen Cersei I]

The subsequent beating. By Robert. Of Her.

Oh yeah, sorry, wasn't trying to make jokes about rape/ domestic abuse. And your sentence was perfectly clear... I just like to take any excuse to mention the homoeroticism of the Robert/ Rhaegar fight.

Actually that is one of the most unrealistic character relationships in the series: Robert and Ned. What would make Ned friends with Robert in the first place as a person?

Well, since we're on homoeroticism here, IMO, there is some major guy crushing going on with Ned's view of Robert in AGOT. Seriously, I've heard suggestions that Davos is rocking a bit of a same sex attraction to his king, but, imo, when it comes to gay subtext, you can't beat Ned Stark and his beloved Bob.

Ned is shocked to the point of tears upon seeing the newly fat and washed up King Bob for the first time... apparently, Ned was weirdly invested in King Bob being very, very hot. In every single scene they're in together, the sexual tension is palpable. Jaime more or less tells Cat that Robert loved Bob more than her. Robert tells Ned, in all seriousness, "Ned, I have NEED of you." And Ned replies, (with, I imagine, a naughty gleam in his eye, and a fire in his loins, "I am yours to command, your grace. As always." Yeah, I'll bet, Ned. I'll bet you are.

But the gold medal goes to Ned Stark, for the non-ironic use of the following phrase, "muscled like a maiden's fantasy." (Do I need to tell you who he's thinking about, here?)

Like brothers my ass.

Sure, they may have viewed each other as siblings.... Targaryen siblings.

[seanbean4lyfe]

Sure, they may have viewed each other as siblings.... Targaryen siblings.

:lol:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Well, at least the marriage between Stannis and Selyse offers equal opportunity misery.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: every bad thing that happens in asoiaf starts with an arranged marriage.

[Horik of House Carl]

I'd actually argue that Stannis has classic middle child syndrome. Sandwhiched between two handsome*, charming, popular, easy going brothers who seem to excel at everything he, Stannis, so clearly lacks, he has felt overlooked and unloved his entire life. (With, imo, some justification.)

Very interesting psychological profile and probably very accurate. I'll point out that Richard Nixon was also a second child and exhibited all of the traits you mentioned.

Stannis: Richard III. Richard was a very skilled military commander who nonetheless was never

terribly popular in the south of England.

Richard Nixon was basically named after Richard the Lionhearted by his parents. In fact all of his brothers were named after Kings of England.

[Jory]

Richard the Lionheart was Richard I. Richard III is a different guy.

[Horik of House Carl]

I also think Stannis perhaps has Asperger's Syndrome - though he seems normal enough with Davos. And he is able to lead a sizable army ( and fleet for KL) against both KL, and Winterfell.

Yes, that makes sense. People with Asperger's tend to be odd and don't relate well with other people. The are also obsessed with rules, which is definitely right up Stannis' alley.

There are actually many very successful CEOs which probably have Aspergers... Warren Buffett and Bill Gates come to mind.

Stannis also appears to have an obsession with numbers. GRRM mentions that he has a reputation for knowing the troop count of every single house in Westeros. That definitely sounds like an Aspie.

[Horik of House Carl]

Richard the Lionheart was Richard I. Richard III is a different guy.

Anyway, his parents didn't name him Richard I or Richard III, they just named him Richard. Similar to Stannis, his siblings were all boys.

GRRM gives you the sense that Stannis is always uncomfortable with himself just like Nixon. Nixon's first school teacher said that "he rarely ever smiled or laughed." JUST LIKE STANNIS.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Stannis is as bald as a q ball at 34. Not hot.

I guess this is further proof of a point made in another thread, about how attractiveness is all in the eye of the beholder. My husband shaves his head bald, and has a frikkin awesome pirate goatee (my BFF describes his look as "domesticated hell's angel") and I think it is hot as hell, even after all these years. I would not have it any other way, he is my idea of ideal man in every way ...bald, kinda pirate-ish, tatted out, tall and built like a brick wall. Luckily for me, I also turned out to be his ideal, which is also tatted out, black haired and pale skinned, kind of a rockabilly taste in clothes.

Another woman may find his baldness unattractive, but I love it. Likewise there are plenty of guys who would be totally turned off by my tats. To each their own.

Stannis may not sound even remotely attractive to us, but I find the descriptions of his appearance intriguing. That is the fun part of reading vs tv, I guess ... You can paint the characters to look as you want to see them. Jon will always look like the youngest of my four brothers to me, while Loras looks just like one of my middle brothers when he was Loras' age. In my mind, Stannis looks like a black haired, balding, very severe Sean connery.

[Jory]

I could go on about how much I love Stannis - I already have, often, and at great length. He doesn't get a fair shake from a lot of people, but his popularity is growing exponentially and that makes me very happy.

[LuisDantas]

Anyway, his parents didn't name him Richard I or Richard III, they just named him Richard. Similar to Stannis, his siblings were all boys.

GRRM gives you the sense that Stannis is always uncomfortable with himself just like Nixon. Nixon's first school teacher said that "he rarely ever smiled or laughed." JUST LIKE STANNIS.

Out of curiosity, why is it so surprising that he is uncomfortable? His behavior gives him plenty reason enough to be just so.

[Horik of House Carl]

Out of curiosity, why is it so surprising that he is uncomfortable? His behavior gives him plenty reason enough to be just so.

Not sure what you are asking... Anyway, there are also other characters which are often feeling awkward or uneasy, or self conscious. Brienne often feels like a gawky freak, Samwell Tarley feels is oversensitive about his weight and cowardliness and Vicatorian always thinks people are laughing at him.

Stannis is just never at ease, even at his best he's busy grinding his teeth.

[salt]

GRRM gives you the sense that Stannis is always uncomfortable with himself just like Nixon. Nixon's first school teacher said that "he rarely ever smiled or laughed." JUST LIKE STANNIS.

Actually, Stannis laughs fairly often. This isn't Tywin Lannister we're talking about. You won't find him laughing his as off at jousting dwarfs, but he has a dark and cynical sense of humor that i actually find pretty endearing.

As far as the whole aspergers claim goes,you're talking about a man who by the age of 22 saw more bloodshed, terror, and evils of the human spirit than most of will see in our entire lives. Trying to psychoanalyze these characters by the standards of our cushy, sterilized modern society doesn't really work. I'll leave this kind of psych 101 to the community college freshmen.

[1234567]

Oh yeah, sorry, wasn't trying to make jokes about rape/ domestic abuse.

Don't worry, I thought that yet again I'd managed to cock up the meaning a a post!

[Horik of House Carl]

As far as the whole aspergers claim goes,you're talking about a man who by the age of 22 saw more bloodshed, terror, and evils of the human spirit than most of will see in our entire lives. Trying to psychoanalyze these characters by the standards of our cushy, sterilized modern society doesn't really work. I'll leave this kind of psych 101 to the community college freshmen.

Aspergers appears to be genetic, not caused by the environment. It's a form of autism and shows up in children at a very young age.

I think the reason GRRM's characters are so life-like is because he models them after real people. Famous people of who have been carefully observed and written about. GRRM is basically a master of psychology, that's what makes ASOIAF so interesting. He should be awared an honorary PhD in psychology.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Yeah, Stannis *does* have a sense of humour, although it's pretty bitter. And he's kinda Socially Awkward Penguin when it comes to handling women or children. I'm sure he loves his daughter but has no idea how to express it, and he's not too huggable.

But he never seems uncomfortable with Davos, maybe because Davos is so natural and simple. He doesn't have to think about "WTF does this man want, is he deceiving me?", he knows Davos is exactly who he seems.

[salt]

Aspergers appears to be genetic, not caused by the environment. It's a form of autism and shows up in children at a very young age.

I think the reason GRRM's characters are so life-like is because he models them after real people. Famous people of who have been carefully observed and written about. GRRM is basically a master of psychology, that's what makes ASOIAF so interesting. He should be awared an honorary PhD in psychology.

Exactly, my point is that Stannis's personality doesn't come from Aspergers, it comes from the events that have taken place in his life, events with an impact that your or I couldn't possibly hope to understand. His knowledge of the troop counts of all the great houses isn't some sort of autistic obsession, its his job. Stannis is a military commander and a lord. His life and the life of his family depends on knowing these statistics, and understanding what they mean. I find just about every point you've made in this thread to be wonderful examples of the old saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I don't want to go too far off topic, but your idea that Nixon and his siblings were all intentionally named after English kings as some kind of aspirational thing is silly. Its widely considered true that Nixon was indeed named after Richard The Lionheart, but do you realize how many common English boys names were also the names of kings? William, John, Edward, Richard, Louis, Henry, Philip, Charles, and James to name a few. Give birth to a few boys in America and it would take effort to not give one of your children the name of an English king.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think so too. For Stannis, it's all business and not emotional.

I can just see it - these orgasms are FOR THE GOOD OF THE REALM!!11oneone

[Queen Cersei I]

Hold on, don't tell me Stannis was sleeping with Melissandre??! Mistress?! Nuh-uh...

I do not think Stannis slept with Melisandre, I think her referring to the bed not seeing use refers to her not sleeping in it because she doesn't need sleep (being so magical or undead or what have you). It is just so out of character for Stannis to sleep around,

I think so too. For Stannis, it's all business and not emotional.


This thread has made me think about the Baratheon brothers. Does anyone else think it is a little funny how sexually varied they ended up?

Robert: Heterosexual Sex Fiend
 Stannis: Asexual 


The whole “Stannis is asexual, and thus cannot be enjoying sex with Mel” is an argument I’ve heard repeated on numerous Stannis threads, and I just thought I’d respond to the matter here. I’d argue that Stannis is not at all asexual, merely repressed; that he is, in fact, sleeping with Mel on a regular basis; and that he enjoys doing so immensely. All of these things are clear to anyone who observes Stannis closely.

A number of factors in Stannis’s portrayal lead readers to assume that Stannis is asexual, but I think that this is clearly wrong. The two primary reasons why readers assume that Stannis is unnaturally cold or uninterested in sex are his cold marriage/ relationship with his wife, and his (apparent) lack of interest in women/ sexuality. Both of these are flukes.

First, Stannis’s cold relationship with Selyse is not by any means an indicator of a low libido on Stannis’s part. (As LF and countless commentators on these boards have noted.) It simply indicates that he, like most men, is not interested in sleeping with ugly women. Stannis avoids his wife whenever possible, and shags her once a year at most with a horrified look on his face not because he is asexual, but because he is disgusted by Selyse’s physical appearance.(If he had had a pretty wife, there is no reason to believe he would have only slept with her once or twice a year, as he did with Selyse.)

There are plenty of clear indicators that Stannis’s disgust is Selyse specific, rather than women in general. His physical distaste for his wife shines through in practically every scene they’re in together—when Stannis is said to be leading Selyse back to the castle after the burning of the seven in ACOK, he is said to be holding her elbow with the tips of his fingers, with a disgusted look on his face (apparently grabbing her hand would just be TOO MUCH!!!) In another scene with Davos in ASOS, Stannis immediately shrugs away from Selyse’s touch, looking grossed out/ uncomfortable. Littlefinger, Renly, Tyrion, and others all mention Stannis’s physical disgust for his wife as the defining element in his relationship with her.

On it’s own, this would not necessarily prove that Stannis was clearly disgusted by Selyse—perhaps, one might argue, he just dislikes/ is uncomfortable with women touching him. However, when the beautiful Melisandre (rather than the ugly Selyse) is the one touching Stannis, Stannis is shown to react differently—he is just fine with Mel touching him. For instance, in ASOS, Davos observes that, when Selyse touches her husband, Stannis quickly shrugs away from her touch. However, moments later, Davos notes the following: “Melisandre put her hand on the King’s arm. “The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his King’s blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.”

Stannis did not pull away from Melisandre’s touch as he had his queen’s. The Red Woman was all that Selyse was not; young, full-bodied, and strangely beautiful, with her heart shaped face, coppery hair, and unearthly red eyes.”

I think Stannis is just not comfortable around women period. He honestly strikes me as having a case of Asperger's Syndrome. Just a very awkward, nonromantic kind of guy.


Stannis seemed to mistrust beauty. I wonder why this didn't extend to Melisandre. I suppose she's loyal to him now.

Secondly there is the argument (exemplified by the comments above) that Stannis must be asexual because he acts asexual— i.e., generally cold, unflirtatious, and uninterested in women and sex. While this is true, I do not think that this necessarily indicates asexuality or even a low sex drive on Stannis’s part. Rather, I think Stannis acts this way because he is personally insecure and shy around women, a combination that makes talking to females, indicating interest in them, and acknowledging his natural desire for sex to be something near impossible and embarrassing on his part. In addition to being personally reserved and somewhat shy and awkward by nature, he is rather old fashioned, and especially socially awkward around women.

Stannis is here, as in so many other things, the polar opposite of his brother. Robert handsome, friendly, can easily charm women and seduce them from an early age. Stannis, in contrast, has never been comfortable around them. He also seems to hold some genuinely felt beliefs about sexual behavior and sexual fidelity, however, imo, his cold, indifference towards women is largely an act. Growing up, he probably not only was unable (unlike Robert) to get girls, but had trouble talking to them as well. (When I think of Stannis, I recall Quentyn Martell’s admission: “girls scared him, especially the pretty ones.") He dealt with this by taking refuge in a cold, icy exterior and apparent indifference/ lack of interest in women. Is Stannis truly asexual? I’d argue—hell no. He merely WANTS people to think he is.

Throughout the books, there are several subtle but undeniable instances that hint that Stannis is very much aware of the charms of beautiful women. For instance, the quote some here have utilized to prove that Stannis is asexual/ doesn’t care about beauty, when he asks Jon, “Are you fond of this… Val?” Then says that he (Stannis) has been told Val is comely, and informs Jon not to trust this, since beauty can be treacherous.

People use this as evidence that Stannis is asexual, or unimpressed by female beauty. I’d say it gave me the opposite feeling. Here, Stannis clearly notices a girls beauty, and assumes that it is going to be a potentially strong enough force to distract the sensible Jon or impede his judgment. Now, personally, I can’t see someone who is truly rather cold/ low sex drive (grown up Ned Stark, for instance) making this assumption, and having these sorts of fears. IMO, Ned would probably treat Val the same and view her the same despite her beauty; and would naturally assume that everybody else would, as well. Yet Stannis appears to assume that Val’s beauty is a powerful, force; one that could potentially threaten Jon’s good judgment. The fact that he notices beauty in women is indicative that he is not as cold and indifferent as he pretends; and the fact that he warns Jon not to be mislead by Val’s beauty indicates that the sexual pull towards beautiful women is something that he is not only intensely aware of, but fears and mistrusts—indicating that he, too, may well feel this pull. (The comment “beauty can be treacherous” is, imo, also meant to be ironic, since Stannis is very much taken in by Mel’s beauty and her sexual relationship is a key element in her control over him. However, she will end up leaving him without ado the moment she learns he is not truly Azor Azai reborn.)

The matter of whether or not Stannis and Melisandre are sleeping together regularly is a far less contentious issue. Ample evidence pretty much indicates that that is almost surely the case. Including:

1. At Blackwater, Mel and Stannis share tent. (Not just twice, as needed for shadow babies. But each and every night for some weeks.) Tents are small; it seems pretty strange that they’d be sharing one, sleeping side by side like a couple of cub scouts, for no apparent reason. Furthermore, Davos’s kid notes that Stannis starts freaking out at night, and that Melisandre is the only one who can help him relax and get back to sleep. And for all 3 readers who missed it, Davos even reflects, “Knowing that Melisandre had been sharing King Stannis’s tent for the past few weeks, he couldn’t help but wonder if she’d found more effective methods to soothe him than prayer.” I doubt Davos is talking about yoga, here.

Of course, I guess one could argue that this was only to make the shadow baby, but when Stannis returns from blackwater defeated, and (according to Melisandre) no more shadow babies can be made, the sexual relationship clearly continues.

2. Following the Battle of the Blackwater, Stannis locks himself away with Mel for a number of days and nights, refusing to talk to anyone else, including (unsurprisingly) his wife and daughter. Very strongly indicated that some comfort sex is going on here; again, the fact that Mel and Stannis are “having sleepovers” again here, when Mel could have just as easily gone somewhere else to sleep for the night, is significant. And again, at this point all of the shadow babies have been made, and there is no practical reason (beyond feeling good) for Stannis to shag Melisandre again.

3. Melisandre, in her infamous scene with Davos, gives him the creepy/ hot (or hot/ creepy?) speech, “The kings fires burn low. I do not dare make him another son, it may kill him. But from a man whose fires burn hot and high…come to my bedchamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you’ve never known, and from your seed, I could make…” (paraphrasing here, since I’ve misplaced ACOK, but pretty dang close to the original.) The bolding is mine, merely in response to the incredible argument “Melisandre may not be talking about sex here!” that I’ve heard several times, and must admit to finding fairly hilarious. IMO, either GRRM is intentionally doing one hell of a fake out here, or Melisandre has been fucking Stannis (and is clearly offering to do the same with Davos.) Her admission that “the kings fires burn too low” indicate that she has the means to make him a shadow baby (regular sex), but choses not to do so for fear that he will be hurt.

The fact that Stannis keeps on screwing Melisandre even after the shadow babies have been made, and far more often than “strictly necessary” to make them, indicates that (probably contrary to what he tells himself) Stannis’s reasons for sleeping with Melisandre are not necessity or duty, but simply personal pleasure.

4. Less ironclad but still significant—the author includes numerous little touches, which indicate a very close, probably physical relationship between Mel and Stannis. For instance, there is the scene where there is some casual but intimate touching going on between Mel and Stannis, where it is illustrated that he is repulsed by his wife, but attracted to Mel. After they first start sleeping together in ACOK, Stannis starts referring to Melisandre by her first name, something that is significant for the formal Stannis, who does not do this with many people (including his own wife, whom he calls “woman”.) There is also the fact that, after blackwater, everyone notices that Mel and Stannis start going everywhere together; he is never out of her presence.

5. Jon Snow notes (first in ASOS), that Mel, not Selyse, is Stannis’s “true queen.” He notes this again in ADWD. (And in the appendix to ADWD listing the cast of characters, GRRM subtly puts Mel in the spot where (in the past) a man’s wife/ mate is put, shunting Selyse off to the side, apparently since Mel is his “true wife.”

IMO, with the phrase “true queen,” Jon indicates a definite sexual relationship between Mel and Stannis. If he’d merely wanted to highlight Mel’s importance to Stannis or great influence, I don’t see why he wouldn’t call her Stannis’s “true advisor” or “true power behind the throne,” or something of that nature. He clearly means that it is Mel, rather than Selyse, who is taking up the position of queen and wife. Furthermore, in ADWD, Jon actually mentions Selyse, and notes how she is basically nothing, just a figurehead, and everyone knows it. This strongly indicates the fact that Mel and Stannis are sleeping together, and that pretty much everyone is aware of this. (As is Wyman Manderly’s daughter in law’s claim that Mel is Stannis’s “Red queen.” And Bolton’s (offensive) description of Mel: “Stannis’s “red whore.”)

6. Mel and Stannis staying in same tower at the wall—potentially same room.

7. Mel notes in ADWD, “With Stannis gone, her bed had not seen much use.” Again, this is either a clear-cut confirmation that Mel and Stannis are sleeping together regularly, or one hell of an intentional red herring on the author’s part.

8. Mel and Stannis are identified as lovers in the miniseries, and will almost surely have a sex scene together. As with Renly and Loras, most ambiguity is erased from the relationship, in favor of showing explicit sex. However, in the past, GRRM has admitted that he intended the relationship between Renly and Loras (only hinted at in very subtle ways) to be obvious to the reader. Now, if GRRM intended the Renly/ Loras love affair, which is given in tiny, subtle hints, to be clear, than he must intend the Stannis/ Mel sexual relationship (which is strongly indicated almost beyond doubt on numerous occasions, but is never stated outright) to be obvious to readers as well.

Wow, I honestly did not intend for my post re: Stannis's sexuality to be 1/8th this long. I actually feel a bit pervy for focusing on this issue at such length. However, IMO, Stannis's relationship with Mel and his sexuality is a highly significant factor in his overall character. This affair illustrates his simultaneous desire for love/ affirmation, tendency towards unintentional, unknowing hypocrisy, and great capacity for self delusion. (He is only doing it for the realm, I'm sure he tells himself before his regular sessions with Mel.) It also illustrates that Stannis may not be so very different from his brother (or any other hormonal, heterosexual man) as he pretends. Indeed, on reflection, his many diatribes about his brothers sexual behavior, as well as his outlawing of prostitution on Dragonstone, carries the distinct whiff of sour grapes. Finally, i think this sexual emotional element is a major (but in Stannis's mind, probably unacknowleged) factor in the Mel/ Stannis relationship, and may become especially problematic/ potentially unbearable for Stannis if his lover and number one supporter leaves him forever, and defects to team Jon Snow.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

There are several reasons I like him, some complex, some simple, but I think the simplest reason people like him is this: in the struggle for power in Westeros, in the Game of Thrones, he's the underdog, and as the saying goes, "Everybody loves an underdog."

[Slychd]

The whole “Stannis is asexual, and thus cannot be enjoying sex with Mel” is an argument I’ve heard repeated on numerous Stannis threads, and I just thought I’d respond to the matter here. I’d argue that Stannis is not at all asexual, merely repressed; that he is, in fact, sleeping with Mel on a regular basis; and that he enjoys doing so immensely. All of these things are clear to anyone who observes Stannis closely.

In my defense, I am only just starting my first full re-read, but I did read ADWD twice, back to back. I am currently re-reading AGOT and Ned is still alive, so no Stannis yet, but I will pay extra attention to Stannis and Mellisandre when reading the following books and see if my opinion changes.