Why do people like Stannis.. I don't get it?

[Roose Seal]

I think he would smile on the feasts and clapped for his Knight of Flowers on tourneys and change clothes everyday. The same for his beautiful queen...

^

That seems to be what's expected of the King actually.

The King on the Iron Throne seems to be more of an emblematic figure than an actual political leader. He has the final say in most matters, which is why Robert was a terrible king, he never listened to his council and just did as he pleased, but the Small Council and the Hand seem to be doing most of the decision making. Renly would've listened and/or let the council decide in his stead, while he worked on his popularity to unite the population. He was popular with the smallfolk and had the charisma and "panache" Robert and Stannis lacked. Had he named the Queen of Thorns as Hand (when the King is reasonable, the Hand seems to be the one with actual power), and intelligent people to the Small Council, his reign could've been great. Not to mention he would have the entire power of Highgarden (which seems to be quite formidable, in spite of their crappy leader) supporting him.

I can't remember if they ever talk about Renly's opinion on Littlefinger and Varys, but I've always been under the impression that getting rid of them would've been one of his first acts.

Saying he would've made a better king than Robert is frankly quite obvious and I think that while Stannis would've made better decisions as a king, he seems to lack the ability to surround himself with trustworthy and/or intelligent people, save Davos. Not to mention the realm would be highly divided under Stannis' reign and there would probably be a massive religious conflict between a monarchy that's been following the Faith of the Seven for a very long time and the new religion of Rh'llor.

Anyway, this is all hypothetical, and just my impression of Renly as a king.

Of all remaining candidates though, and especially with Kevan gone, Stannis seems like the best option, which is not saying much about the current state of affair in Westeros...

[Queen Cersei I]


 Being an unattractive woman in westeros is sooooooo much worse than being an unattractive man.



Exactly, and that was my point. I have no problem with people loathing Selyse—indeed, at this point, we’ve been given little reason to like her. Furthermore, I don’t even have a problem with people mocking Selyse. I laughed at her myself, my first couple of readings.

However, my point was that her situation sounds pretty fucking lousy. IMO, again, no problem with mocking her. But saying “oh, poor Stannis,” is pretty unfair. IMO, Stannis’s treatment of Selyse has been lousy and cruel, no matter how understandable/ natural it is presented as.

There’s also the issue of the fact that Mel is treated with far more interest and respect by by both readers and the text itself, despite the fact that, when one looks at the matter objectively, morally, the two are virtually the same. Mel is more intelligent, and seems to be very much pulling Selyse’s strings, correctly reading her vulnerabilities and playing on them (i.e., her fears that her and Stannis’s marriage bed was cursed because they had not had sons, rather than admitting to herself that it was simply because Stannis loathed her and never screwed her.) Though Selyse is presented as an utter fool for this, it is actually quite sad—having male children is the most important thing a woman in Westeros can do, and Selyse has, once again, failed due to her own ugliness and the disgust it elicits in her husband.

IMO, Melisandre is clearly treated with about 150 percent more compassion, interest, and humanity than Selyse, who is treated as revolting, inhuman—and no, it’s not because of her personality, which is frankly one dimensional and tacked on. The text’s attitude towards Selyse (and all other ugly women in these books who are not Brienne) is best summed up by the following quote by his id, LF—“Only a fool would want to bed Selyse Florent.” Which, apparently, makes the text itself incapable of considering her with anything resembling compassion, interest, or respect. Queasy pity is the best we can hope for, with Selyse and all other ugly women who are not Brienne.

[Catastrophe]

He is doing it now, when the disadvantages are so much more relevant. Why would he stop later?

Because once he won the throne he wouldn't need Melisandre's help any longer. He isn't loyal to her, he thinks she's loyal to him. I doubt he cares much about her as a person, and he definitely doesn't care about her religion. She's a means to an end, nothing more.

Right now, he's going along with Melisandre because he's desperate and he feels like he has nothing to lose anyway. He knows that he doesn't have the people's love, and he knows that he's going to have to fight to take the throne, no matter what. If converting to the faith of R'hllor causes people to hate him, even to make war against him, it doesn't matter because from his point of view, they'd do that anyway. It's not like Cersei and Renly's forces would've gone over to his side if he'd only kept faithful to the Seven.

Once Stannis actually won the throne and was recognized as the rightful king of Westeros, that would all change. Melisandre would no longer be useful to him, and we know how Stannis treats people who aren't useful to him. He'd give her whatever rewards he felt she deserved for helping him, and then he'd cast her aside. He might keep up the pretense of worshipping the Red God (though that's far from a certainty), but I doubt he'd try to force all of Westeros to convert to a religion that he doesn't even believe in. It wouldn't be worth the conflict. Remember, Stannis is all about order and stability, or at least he claims to be. The last thing he'd want after taking the kingdom would be to plunge it back into war over some religious nonsense he doesn't actually care about.

From reading your posts, I can tell you have a pretty good grasp on most of the characters and their motivations, but I think your view of Stannis is a little off. You always seem to lump him in with Melisandre as if they're practically the same character, with the exact same opinions and goals. He's not just a copy of her, or some mindless puppet under her thrall. In actuality, there are several times when the two of them have been at odds, and even when he listens to her it's because she's convinced him it'll be to his benefit. He never displays the kind of blind fanaticism we see from Selyse and the Queen's Men, nor does he sycophantically grovel for her favor like Ser Axell. For all of Stannis' flaws, he's definitely his own person.

[LuisDantas]

I guess I just don't picture Stannis as someone who makes a strong demand (adopting Rhllor's faith) and later on say "oh, never mind, I don't think that is important after all".

Nor do I know for certain that Stannis would feel safe in opposing Melisandre at this point. I'm fairly certain that she would kill him if it came to that. And Stannis ought to know that as well.

I recognize that he has his own ideas, but Stannis' personality is such that ultimately it doesn't matter. For all his protestations, he is very much a tool of Melisandre, and will be until he decides to rebel or she meets her end.

[Catastrophe]

I disagree, mostly because Stannis' two most important actions so far- the attack on King's Landing, and the decision to go north to help the Night's Watch- were both done on his own accord. They had nothing to do with Melisandre. In fact, both of those events were a direct result of him actively ignoring her advice, once to terrible failure and once to great success. The battle at Castle Black is particularly telling, because it highlights the great irony of Stannis and Melisandre's relationship: He really did help defend the realm against the threats from beyond the Wall, and he did it despite Melisandre's counsel.

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, it was more a matter of Davos challenging Melisandre at the right time (right after succeeding in evacuating Edric Storm without Melisandre anticipating or knowing of it). Melisandre's immediate credibility was low, so Stannis followed Davos instead. But he is still demanding that people convert to R'hlorr before supporting them, never a good idea and a clear sign of how deeply influenced by Melisandre he is.

As for the Blackwater battle, I confess that I don't remember Melisandre advising against it. I'll get back to you eventually, let's see if I can find some reference.

[Fred Baratheon]

I like Stannis because he's not a pointedly good or evil character. I find myself alternating between wanting him to succeed and wanting him to fail, which is rare for a character in a series like this.

[Zar Lannister]

Stannis seems to have clearer sense of justice than most of the other characters in the show. He is too blunt to handle his answers subtly. So he is constantly speaking his mind. Excellent Non-POV character, IMO.

[Jory]

The way I see it, it was more a matter of Davos challenging Melisandre at the right time (right after succeeding in evacuating Edric Storm without Melisandre anticipating or knowing of it). Melisandre's immediate credibility was low, so Stannis followed Davos instead. But he is still demanding that people convert to R'hlorr before supporting them, never a good idea and a clear sign of how deeply influenced by Melisandre he is.

As for the Blackwater battle, I confess that I don't remember Melisandre advising against it. I'll get back to you eventually, let's see if I can find some reference.

is he? weird, I don't remember him making the northern lords convert to R'hllor in A Dance with Dragons. In fact, he explicitly doesn't.

[LuisDantas]

Stannis seems to have clearer sense of justice than most of the other characters in the show.

Wow. Tell me that you are jesting about that. Otherwise, agreed.

[LuisDantas]

is he? weird, I don't remember him making the northern lords convert to R'hllor in A Dance with Dragons. In fact, he explicitly doesn't.

I haven't reached ADWD yet. In ASOS, however, conversion is one of the demands he imposes on the wildlings so that they may settle on the Night Watch's Gift. It is on the second-to-last Jon Chapter, see the link below.

http://awoiaf.wester...ords-Chapter_76

Tell me about his reasons or rationale for changing his mind. Are they mentioned?

Or is it just a matter of he not even trying, realizing that the Lords of the North will pay him no mind?

[salt]

LuisDantas, you should probably read ADWD if you want to talk about Stannis and the North, seeing as how that is about half of the entire book.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Though Selyse is presented as an utter fool for this, it is actually quite sad—having male children is the most important thing a woman in Westeros can do, and Selyse has, once again, failed due to her own ugliness and the disgust it elicits in her husband.

I never got the idea that Stannis'distaste for Selyse was based purely on her appearance. After all, he knew who he was marrying and apparently felt at the time that he could live with her appearance well enough to sire the sons he wanted on her. IMO where things began to go downhill was when Robert & Delena "defiled" the marriage bed and Selyse became obsessed with the idea that the resulting offspring must die in order to lift the "curse on her womb.". That entire thing would put me off sleeping with someone too. "Hi, I thought we might spend the night together ...". "Did you get rid of that bastard spawn that has cursed my womb yet???" "Um, on second thought, maybe another night would be better."

Then you add in the religious fervor which tends to be distasteful to those who do not share it, and things slide a bit further. Soon they both have lovers they much prefer: Selyse has her god, and Stannis has Mel. Frankly everyone seems quite okay with that arrangement.

Do we know how old Selyse is? Is she still even capable of children?

[Queen Cersei I]

I never got the idea that Stannis'distaste for Selyse was based purely on her appearance. After all, he knew who he was marrying and apparently felt at the time that he could live with her appearance well enough to sire the sons he wanted on her. IMO where things began to go downhill was when Robert & Delena "defiled" the marriage bed and Selyse became obsessed with the idea that the resulting offspring must die in order to lift the "curse on her womb.". That entire thing would put me off sleeping with someone too. "Hi, I thought we might spend the night together ...". "Did you get rid of that bastard spawn that has cursed my womb yet???" "Um, on second thought, maybe another night would be better."

Then you add in the religious fervor which tends to be distasteful to those who do not share it, and things slide a bit further. Soon they both have lovers they much prefer: Selyse has her god, and Stannis has Mel. Frankly everyone seems quite okay with that arrangement.

Do we know how old Selyse is? Is she still even capable of children?

Selyse and Stannis were married 13 years before ADWD. Since women in Westeros are generally married between the ages of 14 and 18, I'd say Selyse is between 27 and 31. Even if she were as old as Stannis (who is 36) she'd still be young enough to produce babies. However, it seems unlikely Selyse would be that old, since then she would have been married at 23, a very old age to be married for a Westeros female.

I never got the idea that Stannis'distaste for Selyse was based purely on her appearance.

I got the feeling that was the case very much. Furthermore, the author pretty much seems to assume that nothing else could have been or would ever be the case, considering Selyse's appearance. LF says Stannis has always hated/ tried to stay away from Selyse, and that he (LF) can't blame him. (IMO, GRRM is sort of using LF as his Id/ mouthpiece here.) Tyrion also notes that "Stannis had NEVER been enamored of his wife," which clearly implies that he's never liked her much. Renly says a similar thing. Finally, the fact that Robert did act so ridiculously on the wedding may have had a reason--perhaps Robert, seeing how disgusted Stannis was with his wife, and feeling guilty he made Stannis marry an ugly chick, decided to hook up with the hot cousin to give his uptight little a brother a great big "up yours!" Also, perhaps he thought, "well hey, someone may as well have fun on this bed. And my brother and that godawful hideous bride of his are obviously not going to."

Furthermore, the disgust Stannis shows toward Selyse is very clearly physical, based on her physical appearance. Davos even notes that Stannis shrugs away in disgust from Selyse's touch, but not Mel's, noting this is because Mel is young and hot, and Selyse's ugly. (And old, according to these books. Since 12 year old Sansa (and her boobs) are ready for objectification at age 12, and Arrianne is a bit over ripe at age 23, then I guess Selyse, between 27 and 31, is an old bag.)

I never got the idea that Stannis'distaste for Selyse was based purely on her appearance. After all, he knew who he was marrying and apparently felt at the time that he could live with her appearance well enough to sire the sons he wanted on her. IMO where things began to go downhill was when Robert & Delena "defiled" the marriage bed and Selyse became obsessed with the idea that the resulting offspring must die in order to lift the "curse on her womb.". That entire thing would put me off sleeping with someone too. "Hi, I thought we might spend the night together ...". "Did you get rid of that bastard spawn that has cursed my womb yet???" "Um, on second thought, maybe another night would be better."

Selyse only got that idea once Melisandre planted it in her head (manipulatively) 13 years after the event.

Tyrion mentions that a Red Preist who went to Dragonstone several years back was said to have converted Selyse. Later, Cressen said it was Melisanre who made Selyse turn "heart and soul" to the red religion. Cressen also notes that this was after years of being married to a man who stayed away all years, never wrote letters, never spoke with her, was friendly, rarely visited, and slept with her once or twice a year with a disgusted look on his face, taking "no joy in it." (And all of this, by the way--Stannis staying away all year; his strong distaste towards his wife; and even the fact that he hated sleeping with her and (as Renly puts it) "marches to his marriage bed like with a look on his face like a man marching into battle, and a determination to do his duty,"-- was public knowledge, known by the likes of Littlefinger, Renly, et. al.) Selyse turned to the Red god and Mel's religion after years of lonliness and personal unhappiness.

It was the disgust of her husband towards her that led her to become a fanatic; not her fanaticism that led to the disgust of her husband. There is no proof whatsoever that she ever considered burning Edric, or saw him as the key to removing her inability to bear Stannis children, until Mel planted that idea in her mind.

Selyse is obviously miserable in her marriage, unable to please her husband, and unable to provide him with the sons that he (like all other highborn lords) craves. Why is this? Because she's ugly. (And therefore useless, as the books would have it.) Rather than admit this to herself, Mel presents her with a far more psychologically acceptable option-- it's all the fault of a curse. Burn the kid, who is unpleasing to the great red god, and all the problems will be over. Then she'll have everything she's ever wanted.

Since GRRM clearly does not consider Selyse human and refuses to give her anything like human empathy or feelings on account of her physical appearance, I don't expect to see much fairness in her portrayal in the future, much less any nuance or depth. She is merely a plot device, an embodiement of personal disgusts for the author, and a foil to compare the beautiful (and thus, obviously, human and far more worthy and deserving melisandre.)

[mor2]

@Catastrophe, They say that magic is a double edged sword, I say that someyimes just tools, that are means to an end, end up being an end in itself. Stannis was on the loosing team until the red priestess gave him strom's end and renly army, without her he lost everything and had to convert, then on the wall it was with her that he won and now that he is again on his own he stuck in shit, want to guess what he is thinking while grinding his teeth day and night? If stannis actually win the throne he might find out that, after giving all those concessions to the red pristess and her red mob, that he is way to dependent on her and there is no way back.

[Ladywhiskers]

If Alcanis had simply said the first part, I would have ignored it and let the matter lie. After all, as you’ve pointed out extensively (though not always completely accurately) in your post, Selyse is an unpleasant and unsympathetic person. Hell, even if he’d said something about Selyse being horrible and ugly to boot, I would have ignored it. But this is simply the 100^th nasty, sarcastic comment made about Selyse’s physical unattractiveness. Again, wouldn’t have such a huge problem, however, I’m sick of Selyse being presented as inhuman, and people making nasty jokes and implying that Stannis deserves a medal for sleeping with her.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people in the books who keep putting down Selyse are all male, and speaking to other males. Selyse can't hear them, she can only hear rumors that this is what "people" are saying about her. It's kind of awful, but it's very realistic dialogue. The book's conversations about Selyse could be any internet discussion of any female celebrity.

They don't really care what sort of person she is, they care what she looks like. Mel is a far worse fanatic, less empathic, and just as crazy as Selyse, but people are fascinated by her and crazy about her, because she's hot.

I disagree that Selyse will urge Stannis to burn their daughter, unless Mel tells her it will cure the greyscale/make Shireen beautiful.

I think Stannis does feel entitled to a woman as beautiful as Cersei, because of his station in life, and he resents his wife for being homely. This is why he feels justified in having a mistress so publicly--to show that though he may be married to an ugly woman, a fascinating, beautiful, exotic woman is willing to be his.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Anyone with any lingering doubts over Stannis' awesomeness, go read the Theon I chapter on Martin's site.

Bad. Ass.

[Tini]

Kings who notice that they have grown way too dependent on some person sometimes don't act as expected. It is possible that Stannis realizes how dependent he is on her, resents her and R'hllor for it, and has her removed because of it. Just to show that he is a sovereign monarch, and ruling independent of the priests.

Yes, he is stuck in shit at the end of ADWD but it doesn't look as if R'hllor will get him out of it. If he gets out of it, it is more likely an intervention of the Northern Lords and the banker from Braavos who are not followers of R'hllor and Melisandre. He might notice that, too, when thinking about his situation later.

Tell me about his reasons or rationale for changing his mind. Are they mentioned?

Or is it just a matter of he not even trying, realizing that the Lords of the North will pay him no mind?

When Stannis is marching on Winterfell the Queen's Men think that the blizzards are a punishment sent by R'hllor for travelling with unbelievers. They are not happy with the Northern Lords because they obviously and openly believe in the Old Gods (and are not hit as hard by the weather as they are because the Northerners are accustomed to harsh winters). Stannis knows that at least half his host doesn't believe in R'hllor, and he makes no attempt at converting the Northern Lords. There are also hints that some people who converted to R'hllor have not given up the Faith of the Seven completely, and are returning to the old ways.

When the Queen's Men demand human sacrifice to appease R'hllor, Stannis refuses to burn people just because they don't follow R'hllor. He draws their attention to the fact that the North follows the Old Gods, and that he doesn't want to lose half his host over reliegious dispute. He later sacrifices three soldiers who were caught at cannibalism (despite being under direct orders not to eat human flesh) to appease the Queen's Men but they are not really happy with that. They know that these men would have been executed anyway, therefore are no worthy sacrifice to their God.

Asha who is travelling as a hostage/prisoner with the host is deathly afraid that she will be sacrificed. We have no point of view in the Northern camp to tell us how they see Stannis, the Queen's Men, and R'hllor. Anyway, I don't think Stannis refuses to push R'hllor onto his allies because they wouldn't listen to him, it seems that he is not really not that much into R'hllor himself. Looking at the fanatic Queen's Men, I understand why he'd want to distance himself from them.

[LuisDantas]

LuisDantas, you should probably read ADWD if you want to talk about Stannis and the North, seeing as how that is about half of the entire book.

See, I happen to be aware of most events already, albeit in somewhat broad strokes. I know that Stannis' presence is felt quite decisively in that book. Fair enough. But what I know does not lead me to believe that he did an U-turn when it comes to respecting religious freedom or self-determination.

If I am mistaken, please feel free to direct me to some citations. I have the book right here, a page number or two should suffice.

[LuisDantas]

(...)

Asha who is travelling as a hostage/prisoner with the host is deathly afraid that she will be sacrificed. We have no point of view in the Northern camp to tell us how they see Stannis, the Queen's Men, and R'hllor. Anyway, I don't think Stannis refuses to push R'hllor onto his allies because they wouldn't listen to him, it seems that he is not really not that much into R'hllor himself. Looking at the fanatic Queen's Men, I understand why he'd want to distance himself from them.

Thanks for bringing up the main points. However, I disagree with your conclusion. Stannis wants to keep the support he has, at least for the time being.

So far he has shown a good grasp of how receptive people are to his ideas, and yes, for what it is worth we have consistently been shown that he is not as interested in giving R'hllor converts and human sacrifice as Melisandre is (which is really not saying much).

How exactly the two factors figure in his recent decisions, we can only speculate. Given his attitude in Chapter 76 of ASOS, I think we can tell that he is not big on respecting religious freedom either. As you say yourself, he is (quite justifiedly) worried about the falldown if he tries to push R'hllor too much, too soon.

So maybe he is simply attempting to keep Melisandre's support? Sure. I do indeed believe that to be the case, although Stannis doesn't strike me as a person of particularly strong convictions, despite superficial mannerisms. Put him away from Melisandre for an extended period and he will most likely never speak of R'hllor again.

The damage, however, is done already. Again, as stated on your own post, his most loyal forces are also the most fanatic and bloodthirsty. He should by all means distance him from them - in fact, he must - even if it puts his own claim in danger. Although I suppose that now he is indeed the best choice, after all the good choices are slain. Maybe he indeed doesn't need Melisandre anymore.