The Official Appreciation Thread for Sansa, Queen in the North v. 3

[mor2]

Because face it, you guys are all I-sansa. link to Previous thread.

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Naive, kind, at least now not physically aggressive (Though there are hints she can be), can be spoiled, manipulative, caring, has a strong inner strength that she hides wants people to love/ like her for herself not her title very feminine .

would you still describe Sansa character as such by the end of aDwD?

[Grail King]

I would hope she become a bit more aggressive and edgy in a way that suits her personality which will :

1 Give her respect from the North and Realm as a whole.

2 still keep those qualities that will help her with the common folk and Keep the HONOR in the STARK name

3 Finish loosing the Naiveness ( she's almost there) but not turn cynical of love ( she's getting cynical here)

I can't tell the future but I think she will become a much wiser, politically aware, manipulative ( good way), and sexy woman possible Queen, or regent.

She still remembers she is the daughter of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catelyn.

[mor2]

From the book we know that she was raised to be a lady, with keen interest in all the 'lady stuff", with a naive romantic notions about handsome princes, honourable knights and love. that she likes lemon cakes.. what else?

[Alexia]

I think its awesome that Sansa is the only character to get a third appreciation thread -- because she is a great character who is poised to do something awesome in the next book.

From the book we know that she was raised to be a lady, with keen interest in all the 'lady stuff", with a naive romantic notions about handsome princes, honourable knights and love. that she likes lemon cakes.. what else?

She loves to read, she is a better reader than her brothers, and she reads romance novels. :lol: A detail that I didn't find very realistic for a supposedly medieval era young lady, but nonetheless hilarious.

[Grail King]

I wish GRRM let out a sneak of one of the Sansa chapters he held back, like give us a Christmas present.

[Grail King]

I think its awesome that Sansa is the only character to get a third appreciation thread -- because she is a great character who is poised to do something awesome in the next book.

She loves to read, she is a better reader than her brothers, and she reads romance novels. :lol: A detail that I didn't find very realistic for a supposedly medieval era young lady, but nonetheless hilarious.

She needs to improve her math skills.

[littlespider]

Women read plenty of chivalric romances, as long as they were wealthy and could get their hands on the books. It's likely that a particular woman was responsible for spawning the whole genre of romance -- Marie de Champagne. All hail the great Marie.

But one of the confessions blogs has a nice little confession this morning that seems to pose a challenge to our constant impulse (mine as well) to ship Sansa with anything that has two legs and is sentient. Food for thought:

http://got-confessions.tumblr.com/post/14652427672/sansa-is-written-as-a-deconstruction-of-the-young

Any thoughts?

[Alexia]

But one of the confessions blogs has a nice little confession this morning that seems to pose a challenge to our constant impulse (mine as well) to ship Sansa with anything that has two legs and is sentient. Food for thought:

http://got-confessio...on-of-the-young

Any thoughts?

I get that they are saying that we are all missing the point but I don't think it is quite that. People generally want Sansa to be happy and she wants a romance of her own. She doesn't want to be a victim, and I don't think most of her fans want her to be a victim either -- there are certain posters out there who rejoice gleefully every time she is physically or sexually abused (I will name no names), but what I want, and what I think a lot of people want, is for her to break free of the victim mold and take control of her own life, including her own love life, and stop being set up as the victim.

There are some people who want her auctioned off as a prize to their favorite male character, which I find to be a bit disturbing, but I think most "shippers" are more looking to find ways to make Sansa find happiness than the other way around.

I actually think that this poster makes a decent point and its why I think the whole Virgin Queen concept might be where her character is headed. But I think that she would find that to be a rather sad ending for herself, and so do I.

[Raksha the Demon]

Women read plenty of chivalric romances, as long as they were wealthy and could get their hands on the books. It's likely that a particular woman was responsible for spawning the whole genre of romance -- Marie de Champagne. All hail the great Marie.

But one of the confessions blogs has a nice little confession this morning that seems to pose a challenge to our constant impulse (mine as well) to ship Sansa with anything that has two legs and is sentient. Food for thought:

http://got-confessio...on-of-the-young

Any thoughts?

20 Two-Legged Sentient People With Whom I Do NOT Ship Sansa Stark:

1. Littlefinger

2. Jaime Lannister - He's a Lannister; she's probably never going to trust a Lannister again; he did his best to murder her little brother.

3. Tyrion - could happen in the long run, but they are better suited to be potential allies than husband and wife.

4. Jorah Mormont - I did think about this during the scene with Olenna interrogating Sansa to the tune of The Bear and the Maiden Fair (especially the bit about the Bear all covered in hair; what with Jorah's house being affiliated with bears and Jorah being a hairy guy), but he's just too old for her; and also has an another age-inappropriate fixation of his own.

5. Stannis Baratheon - if something happens to Selyse, I think he would make an offer to Val; or possibly even think about Daenerys; but he's much too old and severe for Sansa

6. Samwell Tarly - actually might work, especially if Sam takes off a few pounds, except the only person Sam will probably break his vows with again is Gilly.

7. Mance Rayder - too old for Sansa; she'll need someone hopefully under the age of 30.

8. Anyone named Bolton - Run away, Sansa!

9. Lothar Brune - thankfully sweet on Mya Stone

10. Trystane Martell - still betrothed to Myrcella; besides, Dorne is too hot and sandy for a daughter of the North.

11. The Blackfish - he's her great-uncle! Sansa's not a Targaryen! Besides, the Blackfish doesn't want to marry anyone.

12. Jaquen Hatar or whatever the chameleon's name is - too slippery. Probably married to his work.

13. Maester Aemon - too old. Also dead.

14. Coldhands - might be Sansa's uncle. Undead.

15. Dolorous Edd - oathbound to the Watch. Probably in love with Jon Snow, too.

16. Gendry Baratheon - yes, he's cute and stalwart; but he'd be much too intimidated by Sansa being a little lady. Besides, I think he's waiting for Arya to grow up.

17. Jon Connington/Griff - too old and too gay for Sansa. Also soon to be dead and might be contagious.

18. Daario Nohasit or whatever his name is - let Dany have him.

19. Victarion Greyjoy - hung up on one-upping Big Brother. Also, a bit too homicide-happy for gentle Sansa.

20. Anyone whose last name is Frey.

[littlespider]

Haha -- nice list, Raksha. Just to be clear: I am not criticizing others for shipping her with various characters; I do this too! But it is such an interesting phenomenon to me that of all the characters in the series, she is shipped the most often.

And I think Alexia's point is a good one: some of the loud, brazen voices that discuss Sansa ship her without the condition that she have control over her own life, her own choices, and most of all, her own body. This last option is the most important to me above all, since this is a character that, more than anything else, has not been given even a modicum of control over her body. It gets threatened, attacked, read, objectified, and treated as a transactional object perhaps more than any other character in the series. It's exchanged between men who are negotiating power, occasionally well-meaning men (Ned, for example) who are working within the confines of a society that sees women's and girls' bodies as such.

And the sad irony is that in her idyllic princess dreams at the beginning of the series, the figure of the princess is above all a figure who is not in control of her own body and selfhood! She is handed off at the dictates of the story.

[Raksha the Demon]

Oh, I don't mind Sansa-shipping either; I was just poking fun at the idea that she's shipped with everyone on two legs who's not a wight. I'm still cherishing hopes that she might end up as the Lady of Highgarden some day (especially if Margaery and Olenna are dead) if Willas is good enough for her.

Women in GRRM's world have it very, very rough, even warrior women who might at least have a good chance at defending themselves in a one-on-one fight against a rapist. As readers, most of us can expect to be able to walk down the street near our home without bodyguards, direwolves, dragons, Kingsguard to defend us from the predation of men; and most of us can expect to be able to decide who we will sleep with and when. That's not how it goes in most of Westeros and Essos; the best a woman can hope for is to be a badass Wildling Spearwife (and not fall into the hands of a Ramsey Bolton or the Others) or the daughter of a house that can afford a good dowry and has a father or brother who actually takes one's welfare into account when bartering her body for alliances or trade goods. Even in Dorne, where women can inherit and women seemed to be given more education and training than in other parts of Westeros, Arianne just missed becoming the bride of Viserys, just on the strength of Viserys being a Targaryen.

So I think it's not unnatural to hope that if Sansa does marry, that she manages to find someone who will care for her, protect her, and that the groom be a good person and someone she can like, respect and hopefully love. It doesn't happen often in GRRM's world, but it is not impossible; as Sansa's own parents could have testified. I don't think that Sansa will end up as a Virgin Queen; I think she does want children eventually. Besides, I believe that one of the reasons Elizabeth I opted not to marry is that she was the frequently bastardized daughter of a tyrant father who killed two of his wives, one of them her own mother - not a model for a successful marriage. I think Elizabeth was frightened of the idea of marriage, and being subject to the whims of some man. Sansa can remember her own parents, who did have a successful marriage and a good life; and hope that she will have the same. Of course, if Littlefinger continues to demand kisses and maybe worse, Sansa could be screwed up for life in terms of sexuality and marriage; so let's hope that someone, Sansa, Myranda, anyone, gives him a shove out the Moon Door in the near future!

[Alexia]

Besides, I believe that one of the reasons Elizabeth I opted not to marry is that she was the frequently bastardized daughter of a tyrant father who killed two of his wives, one of them her own mother - not a model for a successful marriage. I think Elizabeth was frightened of the idea of marriage, and being subject to the whims of some man. Sansa can remember her own parents, who did have a successful marriage and a good life; and hope that she will have the same. Of course, if Littlefinger continues to demand kisses and maybe worse, Sansa could be screwed up for life in terms of sexuality and marriage; so let's hope that someone, Sansa, Myranda, anyone, gives him a shove out the Moon Door in the near future!

Littlefinger murdered his wife before her eyes. Sansa was betrothed first to Joffrey (we know how that turned out), then to Willas (whose family played her like a set of pipes), and then forced into marriage with Tyrion ('nuff said), and now LF is busy molesting her. I actually do suspect that she's pretty well screwed up for life when it comes to sex and romance, and I think that plays a huge role on her crush on Sandor (face it everyone, it isn't a healthy or normal crush for her to have). And I do think that after her very traumatizing experiences with marriage and with sex, that she is afraid to marry and possibly afraid of sex (although her conversation with Myranda leaves me wondering on the last score).

All of which is why I could totally see her going down the Virgin Queen route. And as invested as I am in the idea of a romance for her, I am far more invested in the idea of her personal empowerment, that she reclaim Winterfell, and that she reestablish House Stark. Everything else is secondary.

(I have a whole post to write on ships where the shipper is invested in the male characters i.e. Tyrion/Sansa and often Jorah/Dany, to the deliberate exclusion of the female character's wishes, often accompanied by rage that she doesn't recognize said male character's greatness, but I have work to finish up so I will write my epistle later)

[Alexia]

But I gotta say, one of the saddest moments for me was when Sansa thought that she did not want to marry again, perhaps never. Completely shattered romantic dreams of a little girl. :crying:

[littlespider]

But I gotta say, one of the saddest moments for me was when Sansa thought that she did not want to marry again, perhaps never. Completely shattered romantic dreams of a little girl. :crying:

Agree. And, along with this, her thought that no one would ever marry her for love.

[Raksha the Demon]

Littlefinger murdered his wife before her eyes. Sansa was betrothed first to Joffrey (we know how that turned out), then to Willas (whose family played her like a set of pipes), and then forced into marriage with Tyrion ('nuff said), and now LF is busy molesting her. I actually do suspect that she's pretty well screwed up for life when it comes to sex and romance, and I think that plays a huge role on her crush on Sandor (face it everyone, it isn't a healthy or normal crush for her to have). And I do think that after her very traumatizing experiences with marriage and with sex, that she is afraid to marry and possibly afraid of sex (although her conversation with Myranda leaves me wondering on the last score).

All of which is why I could totally see her going down the Virgin Queen route. And as invested as I am in the idea of a romance for her, I am far more invested in the idea of her personal empowerment, that she reclaim Winterfell, and that she reestablish House Stark. Everything else is secondary.

(I have a whole post to write on ships where the shipper is invested in the male characters i.e. Tyrion/Sansa and often Jorah/Dany, to the deliberate exclusion of the female character's wishes, often accompanied by rage that she doesn't recognize said male character's greatness, but I have work to finish up so I will write my epistle later)

I hope that Sansa is not messed up for life for sexuality and romance; just because I think she could become an awesome mother and would enjoy having kids. But the most important thing should be that Sansa gets to have at least some input as to her future (I'd prefer that she be able to choose her own destiny, but this is GRRM's world, and almost no one gets that choice, particularly during a time that is so chaotic and dangerous), becoming more than a pawn.

Willas might be a nice guy; we don't know enough about him. He might not have had anything to do with the shoddy manipulation of Sansa by his sister and grandmother; or he might have been in on it or at least consenting to the scheme.

Sansa might mellow a bit about romance and sexuality; if, please the Seven, she's able to get some months or a couple of years of not being afraid of being killed or raped or molested by various power players and could enjoy being a pretty young girl, Alayne or Sansa, at a court with eligible bachelors, not making commitments, but scouting the field. I don't know that Sansa will have that luxury, though.

I'm reserving judgment on a future with Sandor until he re-enters the game and we see if he's learned to control all that anger and urge to violence. Sansa and Sandor are not, in my opinion, ready for a romantic or sexual relationship as of the end of AFFC, and would not be for at least two or three years and maybe not even then. He may not be attracted to an older, less emotionally innocent and more sophisticated Alayne-or-Sansa or he may die saving her life; or he may never leave the sanctuary.

[littlespider]

Sansa might mellow a bit about romance and sexuality; if, please the Seven, she's able to get some months or a couple of years of not being afraid of being killed or raped or molested by various power players and could enjoy being a pretty young girl, Alayne or Sansa, at a court with eligible bachelors, not making commitments, but scouting the field. I don't know that Sansa will have that luxury, though.

It'd also be nice for her to actually have some quality time with other women; this is what she has been missing. No mom, no sisters, no girlfriends, nothing except for Cersei and some short-lived time with Marg and her ladies.

Is it too much to ask that she be able to really spend time with Myranda and Mya and develop functional and supportive relationships with other women? Oh, wait, this is GRRM, the ultimate troll.

[Raksha the Demon]

Absolutely! I loved Alayne's tentative forays of friendship with Myranda and Mya; and I think that could come in very handy, as long as Myranda doesn't double-cross her. Though since Littlefinger made it such a point to tell Alayne to be careful with Myranda, I wonder if Myranda might actually make a very good and trustworthy ally for Sansa. Lady Waynwood, who is, I think, the guardian of Harry-the-Heir, seems to like Alayne, which could prove useful, though liking a bastard girl does not mean she will want her to marry Harry. And poor Sansa has been burned before by prospective mothers-in-law...

[Grail King]

Oh, I don't mind Sansa-shipping either; I was just poking fun at the idea that she's shipped with everyone on two legs who's not a wight. I'm still cherishing hopes that she might end up as the Lady of Highgarden some day (especially if Margaery and Olenna are dead) if Willas is good enough for her.

Women in GRRM's world have it very, very rough, even warrior women who might at least have a good chance at defending themselves in a one-on-one fight against a rapist. As readers, most of us can expect to be able to walk down the street near our home without bodyguards, direwolves, dragons, Kingsguard to defend us from the predation of men; and most of us can expect to be able to decide who we will sleep with and when. That's not how it goes in most of Westeros and Essos; the best a woman can hope for is to be a badass Wildling Spearwife (and not fall into the hands of a Ramsey Bolton or the Others) or the daughter of a house that can afford a good dowry and has a father or brother who actually takes one's welfare into account when bartering her body for alliances or trade goods. Even in Dorne, where women can inherit and women seemed to be given more education and training than in other parts of Westeros, Arianne just missed becoming the bride of Viserys, just on the strength of Viserys being a Targaryen.

So I think it's not unnatural to hope that if Sansa does marry, that she manages to find someone who will care for her, protect her, and that the groom be a good person and someone she can like, respect and hopefully love. It doesn't happen often in GRRM's world, but it is not impossible; as Sansa's own parents could have testified. I don't think that Sansa will end up as a Virgin Queen; I think she does want children eventually. Besides, I believe that one of the reasons Elizabeth I opted not to marry is that she was the frequently bastardized daughter of a tyrant father who killed two of his wives, one of them her own mother - not a model for a successful marriage. I think Elizabeth was frightened of the idea of marriage, and being subject to the whims of some man. Sansa can remember her own parents, who did have a successful marriage and a good life; and hope that she will have the same. Of course, if Littlefinger continues to demand kisses and maybe worse, Sansa could be screwed up for life in terms of sexuality and marriage; so let's hope that someone, Sansa, Myranda, anyone, gives him a shove out the Moon Door in the near future!

I'm not sure I want her with Highgarden, they played Sansa for their gain then dropped her cold when there plan did not work out, Willas may be a nice person I don't know but I want her to end up with a decent portion of power for herself and Winterfell if it is good to her and gives to her what I just stated .

And when I say Virgin Queen I really don't mean sexless or with out marriage or love, QE1 had sex and lovers, what she had that Sansa hasn't gained yet is power and choice.

And if she chooses I think it may be just as her father stated, Brave, Gentle, Kind, and Worthy of HER!

FIXED!!!

[Raksha the Demon]

Much as the image of Sansa as the Queen in the North is appealing; I am not sure I want her to be named Lady of Winterfell. If Rickon is found and returned to the North, he will become Lord Stark in about 11 years; and if Sansa is regent, she will lose her power; and also her presence as Lady of Winterfell if Rickon marries. I want Sansa to have a home where she will always be an honored great lady; certainly not displaced in 12 years or so by a young bride. Of course, I don't want Rickon to die either. And there are strong signs that Sansa will rebuild Winterfell, or at least help to do so. There's also that pesky will Robb wrote; which will hopefully be invalidated when Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is annulled - that is, if the will was properly codified and is extant. A new, Targaryen monarch could possibly vacate the will and support Sansa's claim over Jon's in the absence of Rickon or Bran; though...

Grail King, I think you might want to amend the spelling on one of the words in your last line...

"And if she chooses I think it may be just as her father stated, Brave, Genital, Kind, and Worthy of HER!"

[Alexia]

I don't really want her with Highgarden either after what was done to her.

And Rickon will only become Lord if he is named such. Seeing the girls seize power would be immensely satisfying, especially if they refuse to turn power over to younger and less qualified siblings for no reason other than the presence of male sex organs, and if we got a Virgin Queen scenario Rickon's children would be Sansa's heirs.