From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[bgona]

I was just leaving to sleep, but I wanted thank you Rapsie.

Hope tomorrow I will have the time to write my impressions of the chapter! It has to much!!!

And you all have so good points!!!

[Daario Targaryen]

I still don't think Sansa chapters are really important at all. They don't really tell us anything

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I still don't think Sansa chapters are really important at all. They don't really tell us anything

And yet here you are. They tell us plenty, not just about her development, but about the political goings-on of westeros, and the deal with LF. We still don't know what this walking engima's game is, but i think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that it's not important. Sansa is going to show us what that is, and probably have a huge, and active role to play in it as well.

[Raksha the Demon]

That's a good point. I love Ned, but looking back, it's easy to get exasperated with him for the way he coddled and sheltered Sansa from some harsh truths. I can understand feeling protective, especially of a daughter like Sansa who was so gentle by nature. But the girl was going to be queen and was marrying into a family like the Lannisters. Ned did her no favors by not doing anything to prepare her for the harsh reality of life at court. It's even more frustrating because he did make an effort with Arya, but not with Sansa.

Ha! Foreshadowing? ;)

I had the impression that Ned really did not know how to handle Sansa. He obviously loves her, is usually proud of her; but I think Ned has a very strong connection to Arya, because Arya reminds him of Lyanna; while he does not have much (superficially at least) in common with Sansa; who is very girly and not at all a tomboy. It's a bit sad; because Ned does love Sansa; and in fact he forfeits his honor for her sake...I actually think (and I'm not the first to have said so here, though I don't remember the other posts) that Sansa is the most like Ned in her idealism and how strongly she clings to it.

Ned and Catelyn's allowing Sansa to be so unprepared for the world outside Winterfell walls can be contrasted with the sophistication of Margaery Tyrell, another very pretty young daughter of a powerful family, who also came to King's Landing to be married to Joffrey; but was far better schooled than Sansa was. Margaery also seems to have been loved by her family. Of course, Sansa was eleven when she was betrothed to Joffrey while Margaery was 16 I think. Perhaps Catelyn (and I believe that Ned left the raising of Sansa mostly to Catelyn) planned on teaching Sansa more about the political realities of Westeros when she was a little older, 12 or 13, only Robert's visit and then Bran's injury caught them all by surprise and put any plans Catelyn might have had for Sansa's higher education on indefinite hold.

[Lemon Cake]

I had the impression that Ned really did not know how to handle Sansa. He obviously loves her, is usually proud of her; but I think Ned has a very strong connection to Arya, because Arya reminds him of Lyanna; while he does not have much (superficially at least) in common with Sansa; who is very girly and not at all a tomboy. It's a bit sad; because Ned does love Sansa; and in fact he forfeits his honor for her sake...I actually think (and I'm not the first to have said so here, though I don't remember the other posts) that Sansa is the most like Ned in her idealism and how strongly she clings to it.

I think this is spot-on, and it makes me really sad. If there's one thing I wish we could have gotten more of in the books, it's Ned-Sansa scenes.

On a sort of related note, there's a moment in an earlier Eddard chapter, when he's about to kill Lady, and he thinks about how Sansa chose her wolf's name well. He describes Lady as "the smallest and prettiest, the gentlest and most trusting" of the direwolves. The text doesn't say so, but I had the distinct feeling that if asked, this is very much how Ned would also have described Sansa in comparison to his other children.

[clover]

Sansa's chapters could quite possibly be the most deceptive and have a lot of reading between the lines, ambiguity, etc.

I know what I'm getting in Bran, Jon, Samwell, Danaerys, etc. and they have some really good ones that make you go, "holy shit," at the end. But sometimes they are pretty transparent and predictable.

I think we are being led. There has been too much build up. Her POV's in the next book or the last are going to come to a head and blow.

And if you ship San/San, it is heart-wrenching that in a way she does have what she has dreamed of. But in a different package, and not exactly a shiny, pretty one. The knight in shining armor with some barbed wire attached. He risked his life twice to once, speak out for her, and second, to whisk her away. His technique, frankly, sucks, but...And he helps her sister too considering the situation they were in.

Yeah, Ned loved her but couldn't relate to her. But that doesn't mean he loved her any less. I think what bothers me is how they raised Sansa and Arya almost differently, or did they? Ned knew he was, so to speak, going into the lion's den by taking Robert's offer as the Hand, and Sansa was not prepared either, having never had her bubble burst like ever before this and more too. I won't comment on Arya because that is another thread and would take some time to dissect too.

Ned and Catelyn knew there was an interest from Robert and his family in Joff/Sansa and Sansa was not prepared at all.

I think Ned is great but the girls should not have come with him.

[Candor]

Actually, my first thought when I read that part was that sending Loras would have been a good idea because he would inevitably have been killed by Gregor, because let's face it, everyone who goes up against him is inevitably killed, even if they're fire-magicked back to life. They also had a history of mutual dislike from the tourney where Gregor probably developed a personal vendetta against Loras. Gregor is an agent of the Lannisters, everyone with a hand in the game knows this, just as all the players already know that Cersei's kids are Jaime's kids. The death of the Tyrell golden child at the hand of a Lannister pet pits the Tyrells and Lannisters against each other, further consolidating the power of the hand, who can watch these fools tear themselves apart, leaving him to do as he wills. The Lannisters are powerful, ruthless, and inimical to anyone siding against perceived Lannister interests. The last hand saw this first hand and we see this in the political machinations in feast and ADWD. Having the Tyrells and Lannisters hate each other off the bat would be so helpful to a hand. Anyway that was my take on that whole thing, and I thought that bit was really interesting...sorry to dwell on it.

I agree with this reason to send Loras, and I rather think that's what Littlefinger was after. But you see, that's so devious. I think LF was more curious not necessarily on Sansa's ability to reason, but perhaps on ferreting out what sort of nature Sansa has. Is she a bit quick and wicked like him, or not? He find out right away what she believes in, and that she is more naive. He then goes in, touches her, and says the line about songs. To me this says he might have been disappointed on an intellectual level, but his 'sentimental' nature was activated. Actually the more I think about it, I think the gesture was our first glimpse of Petyr vs. Littlefinger. As they always are, the natures coexist in this moment, but the disappointment was LF's and the urge to touch and almost bemused yet sad advice was all Petyr.

I may be wrong but this is how I see it!

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I agree with this reason to send Loras, and I rather think that's what Littlefinger was after. But you see, that's so devious. I think LF was more curious not necessarily on Sansa's ability to reason, but perhaps on ferreting out what sort of nature Sansa has. Is she a bit quick and wicked like him, or not? He find out right away what she believes in, and that she is more naive. He then goes in, touches her, and says the line about songs. To me this says he might have been disappointed on an intellectual level, but his 'sentimental' nature was activated. Actually the more I think about it, I think the gesture was our first glimpse of Petyr vs. Littlefinger. As they always are, the natures coexist in this moment, but the disappointment was LF's and the urge to touch and almost bemused yet sad advice was all Petyr.

I may be wrong but this is how I see it!

I know! He is SO devious! You just made me think of something else. What if this is the moment where LF first starts to put together the plan to get Sansa out of KL and all to himself? We know he plays a long game, he was planning Ned's downfall for a while. He went in with that one seemingly irrelevant conversation point with Sansa, guaged what kind of person she was, how best to manipulate her and gain her trust, and used that later to lure her into the Godswood with her "Florian," give her the hairnet, frame her for regicide, and have her under his power. Sorry if this is cracked pottery, but i spend a lot of time on the heresy thread....

You just blew my mind :)

[Raksha the Demon]

Sansa's chapters could quite possibly be the most deceptive and have a lot of reading between the lines, ambiguity, etc.

I know what I'm getting in Bran, Jon, Samwell, Danaerys, etc. and they have some really good ones that make you go, "holy shit," at the end. But sometimes they are pretty transparent and predictable.

I think we are being led. There has been too much build up. Her POV's in the next book or the last are going to come to a head and blow.

And if you ship San/San, it is heart-wrenching that in a way she does have what she has dreamed of. But in a different package, and not exactly a shiny, pretty one. The knight in shining armor with some barbed wire attached. He risked his life twice to once, speak out for her, and second, to whisk her away. His technique, frankly, sucks, but...And he helps her sister too considering the situation they were in.

Yeah, Ned loved her but couldn't relate to her. But that doesn't mean he loved her any less. I think what bothers me is how they raised Sansa and Arya almost differently, or did they? Ned knew he was, so to speak, going into the lion's den by taking Robert's offer as the Hand, and Sansa was not prepared either, having never had her bubble burst like ever before this and more too. I won't comment on Arya because that is another thread and would take some time to dissect too.

Ned and Catelyn knew there was an interest from Robert and his family in Joff/Sansa and Sansa was not prepared at all.

I think Ned is great but the girls should not have come with him.

I'm still surprised, believing as they did that the Lannisters killed the previous Hand, that Ned and Catelyn decide to bring their very young and innocent little girls into a Lannister-dominated court. Ned could have agreed to the betrothal and said that Sansa was not ready to come to court; he would send her in a year or two; or when she was flowered; I don't think Robert would have cared; the Stark he wanted in King's Landing was Ned.

To some extent, Sansa and Arya's distinct personalities determined how they were raised - Arya, the tomboy, ran freely around Winterfell, hanging around with the guards and servants and their children; Sansa, the proper little lady, who didn't like getting dirty, learning history and heraldry and music. It seems like their parents indulged their daughters and let them, mostly, get away with doing their own thing. Neither girl received a well-rounded education, an education that would have helped them not only survive, but thrive, in the world beyond Winterfell. It could be, because the girls were young; that Catelyn would have, had Robert not summoned Ned and asked for Sansa, forced the girls to learn at least the rudiments of useful knowledge and skills. Arya may have decided at the ripe age of nine, that she was not destined to become a lady, but it's also very possible that at 18 she may have fallen for some young lordling and ended up running a keep as well as keeping up with her archery and riding...Sansa should have been taught a lot more about current Westerosi politics and the intertwined relationships of the Great Houses and their vassals, not just which knight from which House beat which other knight at various tournaments.

I wonder whether the ferocity of the war in which Ned and Catelyn had come of age had something to do with their sheltering of their daughters. Ned might have felt that he could not afford to shelter his sons, they would have to be warriors and protectors, but he could let his precious little girls have a long and happy childhood.

[clover]

Yup, Robert would have had Ned as Hand and got what he wanted. He wouldn't have cared who came with Ned.

Robert was never one for details and thinking ahead. I agree that he totally would have let it go for now and Sansa could have been sent for later. If anything, I think it was a misjudgement on Robert's account. He seemed to almost offer the joining of their children to entice Ned as Hand. Ned did it for honor and the love and loyalty and memories he had of Robert. The kids were an afterthought

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I'm still surprised, believing as they did that the Lannisters killed the previous Hand, that Ned and Catelyn decide to bring their very young and innocent little girls into a Lannister-dominated court. Ned could have agreed to the betrothal and said that Sansa was not ready to come to court; he would send her in a year or two; or when she was flowered; I don't think Robert would have cared; the Stark he wanted in King's Landing was Ned.

I have a very vague memory that Cat, in either one of her or Ned's POV's, argued quite vehemently for them going down to KL. I know she certainly advocated Ned taking the position of Hand because that would advance the standing of her family, and increase the prospects for her children. For some reason I seem to recall that for this reason she also wanted the girls, but probably mostly Sansa, to go South and experience court life.

Edit: she was really upset about Bran going, and would miss all her children, but is it correct that she thought that girls going was for the best? I don't have my book right now.