Solaris Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I don't think that the hound is calculating, I honestly feel that he is more "give me 5 min to consider my options. Okay done." and off I go kind of guy or not at all he just explodes into action. I don't think he is interested in playing games with anyone that is why he is always going of about people who lie and hypocrites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalia Borgia Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 On my re-read I am seeing that Sansa does not forgive Cersei for executing Lady but she is afraid of drunk King Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clover Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yeah, he does, but when he is in the employ of the Lannisters he doesn't. Not with them and certain others too.It is why the "Enough" was so moving. It might be the only time he told a Lannister off and it was for Sansa.That was stand out because he never balked much before when she was mistreated. I think he spoke his mind with Tyrion because he knew Tyrion had low standing with Cersei, Joff, Tywin, etc. Only Jaime cares for Tyrion and considers him worthy.Which made me think he can control himself when he wants too. It's why someone that erupts like him has lasted in KL as long as he has until he leaves on his own.And I wonder if LF or Varys, with the Hound being that close to Joff...have they ever had run-ins with him? Those two seem to try to manipulate or control everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I don't think that the hound is calculating, I honestly feel that he is more "give me 5 min to consider my options. Okay done." and off I go kind of guy or not at all he just explodes into action. I don't think he is interested in playing games with anyone that is why he is always going of about people who lie and hypocrites.No, Sandor is not interested in playing games; nor is he obsessed with the accumulation of power as is Littlefinger. He probably can't stand hypocrites because his father lied about the cause of Sandor's ruined face and just let Gregor continue to grow up a monster; and the Dragons' heir anointed Gregor a knight. He can't let Sansa babble on about gallant knights; because he's seen some terrible truth behind the myth. It is interesting (getting back to Sansa) that Sansa can glimpse the truth of Sandor's pain behind his hideous and scary exterior; but not the truth behind Joffrey's pretty face. She can see the man inside the monster, but not the monster inside the boy. Of course, Sandor is only a tangential part of her personal fantasy at this time; later on he will become more significant in that fantasy of hers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Sorry, double post.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yeah, he does, but when he is in the employ of the Lannisters he doesn't. Not with them and certain others too.It is why the "Enough" was so moving. It might be the only time he told a Lannister off and it was for Sansa.That was stand out because he never balked much before when she was mistreated. I think he spoke his mind with Tyrion because he knew Tyrion had low standing with Cersei, Joff, Tywin, etc. Only Jaime cares for Tyrion and considers him worthy.Which made me think he can control himself when he wants too. It's why someone that erupts like him has lasted in KL as long as he has until he leaves on his own.And I wonder if LF or Varys, with the Hound being that close to Joff...have they ever had run-ins with him? Those two seem to try to manipulate or control everybody.I see what you mean but I don't interpret that as calculative, IMO Sandor knows his place (everybody talks about the unflinching loyalty of the hound) this is the reason for inital inaction. We know he doesn't like what has gone on with Sansa since the outset because of his talk with Sansa on the tourney grounds. The dog had enough of being kicked and has had enough of Lannister hypocracy - he is done, like a done thing. Loyalty has shifted, he aligns himself with the Starks, has a tremendous reaction to recognising this and runs. His own involvement as a Lannister tool has made him jaded and angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clover Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I guess what I'm trying to say is that he is not Varys or LF, but he can "play the game" if he has too. And when he doesn't feel like curbing himself or his words, he doesn't.But the guy knew enough to prompt Sansa to try to help her in certain situations. But sometimes, considering Joff is a sociopath, it didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clover Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I was never sure I liked that word either. Perhaps, street-smart? Because he knows what to do if it means survival. We've seen so many people and King's Guards replaced in KL, that I think he knew how to last there. He was just a mess everywhere else, but not at his job.He was in really good standing there untill he felt he needed to leave. Or it's me, because I think even with him leaving his post, I don't think anyone would have done anything drastic to him, only Tyrion was miffed. And nobody that is anyone in KL thinks much of him.I thought when he said "enough" to Joff... oh, God, you are so fired...or worse.But nothing happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 This another Hound thread now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 This another Hound thread now?No :) I think you'd agree though that he plays a very important part in her arc in these first two books. Anyways, I think mostly everyone is focused on discussing Sandor in relation to Sansa's development, and what we learn about her via how she is able to influence him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clover Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Sorry, redriver...But, er, back to the thread.... in regard to Sansa, he demonstrates that he can buckle down and advise her on how to play so she doesn't get hurt and can survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I think we agree in the essentials, and I really enjoyed reading your take. :) Obviously within Sandor there's a battle between cynicism and idealism and I think this is the most interesting part of his character. I think ultimately Sansa's Idealism is much more powerful than his cynicism, and we will see (IMO) that she teaches him more than he teaches her. You object to the use of my phrase "bring her down to his level," but if we both agree that he is trying to validate himself, I think the only difference would be whether or not Sandor thinks that cynicism is actually superior to idealism. I think we will see that Sandor doesn't fully believe in the cynicism he espouses. Hence, attempts to make Sansa more cynical in order to validate himself would be bringing her down/crushing her as he was crushed. But it's pretty much semantics. In general, I think there are two points that could influence how we view Sandor's actions. First, whose world view is more correct? Is everyone a monster and no one to be trusted and we should all turn to monsters ourselves or die in the process, or is everyone good at heart and we should try to be as good as we can in turn? Second, does Sandor actually believe that his own world view is correct or does he doubt himself and secretly fear that his life is a lie he's told himself? My opinion is that to the first point, neither of them are correct. However I am much more sympathetic to Sansa's view and I exult every time she shows signs that she has not lost it entirely after all she's been through. To the second point, I think there's evidence that Sandor doesn't believe the cynical world view that he tries to foist off onto Sansa (and Arya later). He's so desperate for validation and shows a great deal of suppressed insecurity with his choices. Agreed. Early Sansa is no more correct than Sandor. She assumes the world really is as gentle and beautiful as she thinks, devoid of darkness. Of course she figures out that it's more complicated than that, but I love that she doesn't change her own way of reacting to situations. People have almost no control over externalities, the actions of others, situations. The only controllable variable is one's own reaction to these things. Sandor can't make the world less ugly by returning ugliness for ugliness. He just succeeds in making himself miserable. Sansa can't make the world pretty by behaving sweetly herself, but as she grows she realizes she has to prepare for the worst from others, while putting out nothing but the best from herself, at least for her own peace of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caro99 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 And I wonder if LF or Varys, with the Hound being that close to Joff...have they ever had run-ins with him? Those two seem to try to manipulate or control everybody. i'm not so sure they cared about him to the point of taking the trouble of manipulating him to their side. to the world he is just a lannister dog, very loyal to joff up to the point when sansa interferes. but though varys and LF are supposed to know everything that goes around the red keep, neither seems to have bothered to follow sandor's every move to discover he had a "thing" going on with sansa. and his personality didn't help. varys might have had him followed from time to time as he informs tyrion, but LF probably didn't think that much of him. and being the younger son he had no gold or anything to tempt LF to bring him to his side. yes, he was an excellent fighter but varys and LF probably suspected that he would not be persuaded by gold or women or lands to give up his job as joffrey's bodyguard.and i also find the "enough" scene heartbreaking. can't imagine what he was thinking in those moments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 This another Hound thread now?I am pretty sure we are disassembling the why of the tourney conversation between Sansa and Sandor, I think it makes it relevant. I think it is impossible to have a Sansa thread without talking about Sandor and vice versa.Sorry, redriver...But, er, back to the thread.... in regard to Sansa, he demonstrates that he can buckle down and advise her on how to play so she doesn't get hurt and can survive.lol - I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 This another Hound thread now? I think it's appropriate to discuss the Hound in relation to Sansa when he features prominently in the chapter being discussed. He does play a large role in Sansa's development, and the joust chapter is the first time we get a detailed and complex interaction between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Agreed. Early Sansa is no more correct than Sandor. She assumes the world really is as gentle and beautiful as she thinks, devoid of darkness. Of course she figures out that it's more complicated than that, but I love that she doesn't change her own way of reacting to situations. People have almost no control over externalities, the actions of others, situations. The only controllable variable is one's own reaction to these things. Sandor can't make the world less ugly by returning ugliness for ugliness. He just succeeds in making himself miserable. Sansa can't make the world pretty by behaving sweetly herself, but as she grows she realizes she has to prepare for the worst from others, while putting out nothing but the best from herself, at least for her own peace of mind.I like the way you put this, Revenge :) And it is reflected in that tourney chapter where at first Sansa tries out her tried and true approach - flattery and courtesy - only to be shot down. Then the Hound decides to give his method a go - intimidation and cynical honesty - only for Sansa to comfort him and thwart his final analysis of the world as a hell hole. Both of them learn something about each other that they didn't expect to find, and have to recalibrate their original estimations. Fascinating scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I like the reflection on her being drunk before that all goes down. I don't have the book with me (a mate has borrowed it!) and how the ground coming up to meet her etc and so she keeps her eyes down. I find it amusing that the Hound thinks it has to do with his face. Her composure and ability to control her physical self is evident here, the Hound doesn't suspect for a second that she is blind drunk.It is easy to miss because GRRM want you to focus on her being a child. She is 11 FFS cant remember tasting the wine and she should have a wobble stagger going on and she doesn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 I like the reflection on her being drunk before that all goes down. I don't have the book with me (a mate has borrowed it!) and how the ground coming up to meet her etc and so she keeps her eyes down. I find it amusing that the Hound thinks it has to do with his face. Her composure and ability to control her physical self is evident here, the Hound doesn't suspect for a second that she is blind drunk.It is easy to miss because GRRM want you to focus on her being a child. She is 11 FFS cant remember tasting the wine and she should have a wobble stagger going on and she doesn't!I actually read that and was wondering "huh?" Geez louise, this is the second time Sansa has drunk too much wine. Talk about loose morals! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I find it strangely and inexplicably endearing in these early chapters when Sansa is drinking, and she worriedly remembers that her father only ever lets them have one cup of wine at mealtimes (or is it only at feasts?).I don't know why it's endearing to me, and it adds nothing to the discussion. I'm just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clover Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yup. I believe they thought he is the dog... so the Dog stayed under the radar.What did LF or Varys care as long as he did his job and didn't kick up any dust...what are a few whores and drinks here or there? It seems like that is all they had on him and that is nothing in KL.And the sad part is that she appreciates his adivice and sort of uses it when he is no longer there.Sansa is right, he really only left her the damn cloak, but maybe a little bit more too, much more than she knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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