Catelyn: Even more misunderstood than before

[Evamitchelle]

When the word "missunderstood" is used, it implies that someone somewhere did not read the book in THE RIGHT WAY. I think everybody here paid more than enough attention to detail. And what Catelyn has done, said or thought was fairly detailed. While all the readers UNDERSTAND the chain of her reasonings, some just do not AGREE with her.

I see her as shortsighted (now I marsh my son to war, give my daughter to Freys, but NOW I endanger the whole army (and the said son) for that daughter coming back to me RIGHT NOW). She wants things, she involves people in them and then just turns on them, because she can't handle it for a longer period of time.

In the curious case of Jon Snow I don't blame her for disliking him, I blame her for making a point out of it. With all those constant looks, slights. "it should have been you's". I also kind of dissaprove that she was creating the atmosphere for Jon that he wasn't any good and not because "he was a bastard", but because "he had nothing good to offer whatsoever".

I like that she was doing something and not just staring at the Red Weding. Points for her. That's one time I was cheering her. But still hoped she will die. I actually think her character might be based on Michael from "Lost". Constantly screaming WAAAAAAAAAAALT! SANSA! Robb! One-dimensional. Boring.

I only used the term "misunderstood" in continuation with the previous thread. Still, I feel as if there is a substantial proportion of her detractors thatactually have read the book and reached erroneous conclusions. Like all those people who declared their hate for her in the last thread because freeing Jaime caused the Red Wedding while it's pretty obvious that Jaime's position as a hostage never did anything to prevent Tywin's scheming and that the RW as in the works long before Jaime even got out anyway. But Cat gets blamed for practically everything that goes wrong in these books (I've heard a lot of different versions : she caused Ned's death by forcing him to go to KG, she caused his death because she arrested Tyrion, she started the war, she led Petry on and turned him into a psycho she caused the Red Wedding, she caused Robb's death, she forced Jon to go to the NW etc.) Not only is it insulting, and blatantly untrue, for her, it's even insulting for the other characters because it turns them into mindless drones incapable of making any decision for themselves.

As for her "marching her son to war", did you miss the way she asked for peace repeatedly throughout the books (in the "King in the North" scene, when Renly and Stannis showed up as Kings, after her sons were killed etc.) ? She "marched her son to war" as you say because Robb left her no other choice. She just decided that she'd try and help him in his war rather than let her 15-year-old lead a war by himself. You make it sound as if she somehow forced him to.

[Lord Renly]

And I disagree. Whether Jon should live with Ned or with the mother is between Ned and the mother. Cat can have no moral objection to Ned fulfilling his duty to raise his own kid.

She has every moral right to an objection to Ned forcing her to live with his kid, who he produced by cheating on her. It is not between Ned and the mother if Catelyn lives with Jon. Your disagreement is without merit--it forces Catelyn to treat who she lives with as a matter of indifference.

It's a big castle, but Jon isn't living in some other part of it, like Rodrik Cassel or Mikken or a servant. He is living intimately with the family, as a member of the family, eating at Catelyn's table and playing with her children.

I disagree. I think she was referring to the fact that most nobles don't openly acknowledge their bastards at all.

She couldn't be, because they do. We see that (Joy Hill, Falia Flowers, Edric Storm, Lord Hornwood's bastard, Ramsay Snow...) and Catelyn herself acknowledges it (and is fine with it). They just don't raise their bastards in their wives' homes alongside their trueborn children.

Lady Greeneyes: It is simply incorrect to say that not sending Sansa and Arya with a female entourage is "inappropriate" by Westerosi standards. It is Margaery Tyrell who is the exception in Westeros, not Sansa and Arya. Catelyn didn't have an "entourage" with her when she came to Winterfell to live with her husband; Lysa didn't have an "entourage" when she came to the Vale; Cersei didn't have an "entourage" of women when she came to King's Landing. Most women are dumped into their husbands' households without a support structure, apparently.

Going to the Vale was a genius plan; much less expected than either Riverrun or Winterfell. And Cat had no way of knowing that Lysa had gone nuts or was being manipulated by LF--the reader doesn't find that out till ASoS. And why didn't she just believe Tyrion? Because he's a Lannister. In the political structure of Westeros, it makes much more sense to trust your foster-brother than a member of the family you suspect of killing your son. Blaming Cat for not trusting Tyrion is yet another example of expecting her to have irrational love for the fan-favorites. Fans like Tyrion, but that doesn't make him trustworthy from a Stark/Tully POV. Catelyn was willing to listen to Tyrion, and indeed wanted to hear his side of the story (while being naturally unwilling to just believe him automatically without full explanation and consideration). It's Lysa who prevented that.

[brashcandy]

Lady Greeneyes: It is simply incorrect to say that not sending Sansa and Arya with a female entourage is "inappropriate" by Westerosi standards. It is Margaery Tyrell who is the exception in Westeros, not Sansa and Arya. Catelyn didn't have an "entourage" with her when she came to Winterfell to live with her husband; Lysa didn't have an "entourage" when she came to the Vale; Cersei didn't have an "entourage" of women when she came to King's Landing. Most women are dumped into their husbands' households without a support structure, apparently.

Forget whether it was appropriate or standard or not. Cat and Ned had received news from Lysa that the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn, Cat's son had just fallen off a building in suspicious circumstances. It doesn't take a genius to realise that more protection should have been given to Sansa and Arya, other than Septa Mordane who gets drunk and falls asleep the first time she attends a feast in KL.

[Natalia Borgia]

I wouldn't say just blindly believe Tyrion but he was making sense..... and thank you brashcandy! If she was so freaked about the Bran attack why send the girls mostly unprotected to KL a nest of Lannisters? She thinks a Lannister tried to murder her son and she does not try to sneak the girls out of KL?

I know this a thread to say she is misunderstood but she is misunderstood because too many actions are SO contradicting to common sense or logic.

[Lord Renly]

Forget whether it was appropriate or standard or not. Cat and Ned had received news from Lysa that the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn, Cat's son had just fallen off a building in suspicious circumstances. It doesn't take a genius to realise that more protection should have been given to Sansa and Arya, other than Septa Mordane who gets drunk and falls asleep the first time she attends a feast in KL.

I actually agree with this, but the correct person to get most of the blame is Ned, not Cat. Ned is the one who actually went with Sansa and Arya, not Cat. He is the one personally supervising their protection.

We don't know what Catelyn expected Ned to do about Sansa and Arya, so we can't know how much blame she deserves about it. We don't see her POV immediately before they go (we see her agreeing that they should go, but we don't see her thoughts on the precise type of supervision they need), and after they go she has more urgent concerns (like assassins coming for Bran). So we don't know what she thinks about it. For all we know, she assumed that Ned would hire more people to look after them. It's Ned's actions here that are clear, and blameworthy.

And Lady Greeneyes: he was only making sense if you believed him. There's really no independent way for Cat to confirm it; Cat could either decide to put her faith in LF or in Tyrion. Catelyn was entirely reasonable in leaning towards LF, and she deserves credit for being willing to consider Tyrion's story.

[Evamitchelle]

Forget whether it was appropriate or standard or not. Cat and Ned had received news from Lysa that the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn, Cat's son had just fallen off a building in suspicious circumstances. It doesn't take a genius to realise that more protection should have been given to Sansa and Arya, other than Septa Mordane who gets drunk and falls asleep the first time she attends a feast in KL.

And the female entourage would have been a good protection ? Ned went to KG with a few hundred men as protection, he just decided to send most of them away (to the goldcloaks, to capture Gregor Clegane etc.). Security0was Ned's responsibility (especially since Cat wasn't exactly sane when they left for KG in the first place). Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey. You don't just break betrothals unless something is terribly wrong in Westeros, doing so (by sneaking her away for example) would have only pushed the Lannisters into action sooner.

[brashcandy]

I was not blaming Cat folks, just stating a fact. And I do understand why the betrothal wasn't broken off, although Ned had an opening with the Mycah/Lady incident. I do think that Cat should have come out of her grief sooner though, because Sansa and Arya probably needed some motherly advice for their journey, but whatever, it went the way it went.

[Natalia Borgia]

I was not blaming Cat folks, just stating a fact. And I do understand why the betrothal wasn't broken off, although Ned had an opening with the Mycah/Lady incident. I do think that Cat should have come out of her grief sooner though, because Sansa and Arya probably needed some motherly advice for their journey, but whatever, it went the way it went.

:agree:

[CatelynFan]

It doesn't take a genius to realise that more protection should have been given to Sansa and Arya, other than Septa Mordane who gets drunk and falls asleep the first time she attends a feast in KL.

If she was so freaked about the Bran attack why send the girls mostly unprotected to KL a nest of Lannisters? She thinks a Lannister tried to murder her son and she does not try to sneak the girls out of KL?

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Now we're criticizing Catelyn for not protecting Arya and Sansa enough? I'm sorry, but is this a joke?

First of all, the girls WEREN'T sent mostly unprotected to King's Landing. I don't remember how many guardsmen went with Ned, but clearly both Ned and Catelyn thought at the time that they would be sufficient.

Second of all, neither Sansa nor Arya had a large female entourage in the style of Margaery Tyrell's. They had Septa Mordane and that was it. Was Catelyn supposed to just conjure one up out of nowhere?

Third of all, why would Catelyn try to sneak her daughters out of King's Landing? Have you forgotten that at this point in the book, Sansa has been betrothed to Joffrey? So just try to imagine what would have happened if she had run off with her daughters. The King and his family would have been outraged, because SHE WOULD HAVE BROKEN A MARRIAGE CONTRACT. I don't think I need to reiterate how seriously marriage contracts are taken in Westeros.

I tried to be more objective, but honestly, I can't believe what I just read. Are people so desperate to hate Catelyn that they paint every one of her actions as a hideous deed that endangered her family? I mean, what are people going to criticize her for next, not enjoying the jellied calf brains enough at the Red Wedding?

ETA: Looks like I came late to the discussion. Sorry.

[Natalia Borgia]

Well Margaery has her mom, poisoner grandma, dad, uncle who fights with 2 swords while practicing, jousting brother, her cousins, and household guards. I certainly think Maege Mormont would have made a formidable companion.

[Evamitchelle]

Well Margaery has her mom, poisoner grandma, dad, uncle who fights with 2 swords while practicing, jousting brother, her cousins, and household guards. I certainly think Maege Mormont would have made a formidable companion.

They all live in Highgarden. The Mormonts are like 500 miles north of Winterfell. Robert didn't exactly give Ned a good heads-up that he was coming. He told him when he had already left KG.

[Lord Renly]

Well Margaery has her mom, poisoner grandma, dad, uncle who fights with 2 swords while practicing, jousting brother, her cousins, and household guards. I certainly think Maege Mormont would have made a formidable companion.

True, but Maege is also Lady of Bear Island and has her own responsibilities. None of Margaery's companions are her father's lord/lady bannermen--they are "roses from lower down on the bush."

The Tyrells are a huge family. The Starks aren't, largely because Brandon and Lyanna and Ned's nameless mother are dead and Benjen is a member of the NW. If Benjen had a wife and daughters, those would have been the Elinor, Alla and Megga for Sansa and Arya. And Ned's mother could have helped as well. Sansa and Arya are at a disadvantage here.

[Natalia Borgia]

Red Wedding happened cause Robb broke an agreement ( and Tywin is EVIL) . When Robert Baratheon was dead any marriage contract was null and void.. I am guessing. No one blames Cat for not protecting the girls enough but A LOT of damage was done because Ned only had 100 guards or so and 3 were killed by Jaime. That didn't warrant breaking the betrothal? Or the kidnapping of the uncle of the future fiancee? Again there were many grounds to set the betrothal aside and get the girls the heck out of KL.

[Evamitchelle]

Red Wedding happened cause Robb broke an agreement ( and Tywin is EVIL) . When Robert Baratheon was dead any marriage contract was null and void.. I am guessing. No one blames Cat for not protecting the girls enough but A LOT of damage was done because Ned only had 100 guards or so and 3 were killed by Jaime. That didn't warrant breaking the betrothal? Or the kidnapping of the uncle of the future fiancee? Again there were many grounds to set the betrothal aside and get the girls the heck out of KL.

It obviously wasn't since Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey until the third book. Apparently executing the bride-to-be's father wasn't a good enough excuse to break off the contract.

[Natalia Borgia]

They all live in Highgarden. The Mormonts are like 500 miles north of Winterfell. Robert didn't exactly give Ned a good heads-up that he was coming. He told him when he had already left KG.

That's true he should have sent a raven- dear dad I have a small army Love Robb.

[brashcandy]

It obviously wasn't since Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey until the third book. Apparently executing the bride-to-be's father wasn't a good enough excuse to break off the contract.

The engagement was all but dead. The Lannisters were holding Sansa hostage.

[Evamitchelle]

That's true he should have sent a raven- dear dad I have a small army Love Robb.

Maege Mormont is the Lady of Bear Island, she can't just leave the island at a moment's notice to play the babysitter to Arya Stark in KG.

[Natalia Borgia]

It obviously wasn't since Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey until the third book. Apparently executing the bride-to-be's father wasn't a good enough excuse to break off the contract.

Apparently not. But she was also a hostage so I think normally beheading the future father in law would be grounds for betrothal breaking. And Joff sets her aside after the BBB in ACOK.

[Lord Renly]

Red Wedding happened cause Robb broke an agreement ( and Tywin is EVIL) . When Robert Baratheon was dead any marriage contract was null and void.. I am guessing. No one blames Cat for not protecting the girls enough but A LOT of damage was done because Ned only had 100 guards or so and 3 were killed by Jaime. That didn't warrant breaking the betrothal? Or the kidnapping of the uncle of the future fiancee? Again there were many grounds to set the betrothal aside and get the girls the heck out of KL.

I agree completely, and think Ned (whose sole right it was to end the betrothal, and who was the first to know about all of this--Cat couldn't have found out till she got a raven about it) is to blame for not ending it. Or at least, for not explaining the situation better to Sansa. He allowed her to keep thinking that Joff was a great wonderful prince until right before he decides to send the girls to Winterfell, when he should have explained things to her better from the beginning. Part of what encouraged Sansa to keep her fantasies was that the match to Joff was approved of by her father.

[Fearsome Fred]

She has every moral right to an objection to Ned forcing her to live with his kid,

Disagree.

who he produced by cheating on her.

Yes, she has every right to object to THAT. But you are objecting to the wrong thing.

It is not between Ned and the mother if Catelyn lives with Jon.

It is, and if the mother has no say in it, it is up to Ned. He has a duty to raise his own kid.

It's a big castle, but Jon isn't living in some other part of it, like Rodrik Cassel or Mikken or a servant. He is living intimately with the family, as a member of the family, eating at Catelyn's table and playing with her children.

Jon is playing with HIS BROTHERS and HIS SISTERS. They grow to know and love one another. I don't see how making him a bitter outsider is preferable.

She couldn't be, because they do. We see that (Joy Hill, Falia Flowers,

What proof do you have that they were openly acknowledged? And as for Joy Hill, as far as I know her father was not even married, and so never faced this dilemma.

Edric Storm,

One openly acknowledged bastard out of 16. The other 15 may well be far more typical.

Lord Hornwood's bastard, Ramsay Snow...)

Both northerners.