Is Bowen Marsh a good guy?

[The King in the South]

I'm pretty sure Bowen Marsh spent a large part of his life fighting and watching his friends die against the wildlings, so I can completely sympathize with why he wouldn't want to take them in/help them. This is one big flaw I find with Jon, in that he can't seem to relate to the rest of the NW; not all of them got to spend time traveling among the Wildlings and learning their customs, and he hasn't fought them for anywhere near the amount of time they have.

So is Marsh evil? No. Is he good? No.

I certainly don't think he deserves to be mentioned among a lot of the monsters in this series. (and there are quite a few jon fans who seem to do this)

[Independent George]

I stand by my overall point that what you said is ludicrous. Considering that a large number of northern families are marching with Stannis against Bolton and the northerners siding with the Boltons are intending to sell them out (Manderly), being blackmailed (Umber), planning their own treachery (Karstark) or have a personal vendetta against House Stark (Lady Dustin), I don't think the northerners will shed a tear over Ramsay's "lordship" the way you imply. Alienate? Please. If Robb's will is out or Manderly's information about Rickon has spread, the northerners themselves might know for sure who their lord is and it's not Ramsay.

And I stand by my point that Jon Snow has no way of knowing any of this.

He doesn't know that Bran & Rickon survived. He doesn't know that Wyman Manderly is looking for them, and plans to back Stannis. He doesn't know Stannis is alive. He doesn't know that Sansa is gathering an army in the Vale. He doesn't know that it was Jeyne Poole betrothed to Ramsay Bolton.

At this point, all Jon knows is that Stannis has just been defeated by Bolton, eliminating the last remaining claimant to the Iron Throne, and securing the Boltons as Warden of the North. It doesn't matter how much the North hates the Boltons, or how much they suspect he was involved in the Red wedding; they've already bent the knee.

[King Bronn l]

We still do not know 100% why Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon. It couldve been one of many reasons.

Was is a Queen Selsye plot?

Was it a Thorne plot?

Was it built up frustration from allowing the wildlings to cross in the first place?

Was it just a spur of the moment thing?

Was it because Jon was going South?

Or was it just a combination of things?

Satin is great and has fought bravely

Everyone else was doing it? :agree:

[Independent George]

Everyone else was doing it? :agree:

He thought there was candy inside him?

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I think he's a bit of a coward and possibly an idiot. But as for "evil," no.

And more loyal to the Iron Throne than the Lord Commander, from what I gather.

[Gurkhal]

He thought there was candy inside him?

There wasn't? :eek:

And more loyal to the Iron Throne than the Lord Commander, from what I gather.

How exactly did you come to this conclusion because its pretty far from what I've understood about his motivation.

[The King in the South]

And more loyal to the Iron Throne than the Lord Commander, from what I gather.

How do you gather that at all? Just because he doesn't trust Stannis? I wouldn't either if the guy basically had me surronded with knights.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

How do you gather that at all? Just because he doesn't trust Stannis? I wouldn't either if the guy basically had me surronded with knights.

His basic reaction during the Janos incident and I think he attacked Jon because, by giving battle to Ramsay, he was giving battle to the son and heir of the Warden of the North. He thought that since Stannis was dead, killing the Lord Commander who gave meat and mead to a rebel of the Iron Throne could get him forgiven. I've been over this so many times so forgive me if I'd prefer not to go into how Jon never broke an oath nor would he have if he attacked Ramsay, even if it was politically motivated.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

How exactly did you come to this conclusion because its pretty far from what I've understood about his motivation.

Read my reply to The King in the South.

[wyman's cook]

i hope Bowen Marsh gets gang-raped by the others! :P that's the only disgusting thing mr Martin hasn't yet included in the books > it has shock value .. and this character certainly deserves it :D

[puenboy]

Poor Satin, why doesn't he get more love? I like him!

About the topic, I don't think Marsh is a Ramsay Bolton but he is stupid and coward,what they did to Jon is IMO inexcusable, that's not the way you deal with a man you think is a deserter, sorry.

Well at the very beginning of AGOT we did see Ned chopping off a deserter's head with Ice...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And I stand by my point that Jon Snow has no way of knowing any of this.

He doesn't know that Bran & Rickon survived. He doesn't know that Wyman Manderly is looking for them, and plans to back Stannis. He doesn't know Stannis is alive. He doesn't know that Sansa is gathering an army in the Vale. He doesn't know that it was Jeyne Poole betrothed to Ramsay Bolton.

At this point, all Jon knows is that Stannis has just been defeated by Bolton, eliminating the last remaining claimant to the Iron Throne, and securing the Boltons as Warden of the North. It doesn't matter how much the North hates the Boltons, or how much they suspect he was involved in the Red wedding; they've already bent the knee.

I love how you deleted the part where I pointed out that Jon knows that Sansa at least is still alive.

It doesn't really matter what Jon knows or doesn't know. You tried to argue that the northerners wouldn't stand by Jon if he had to or chose to make war on the Boltons, and I said, correctly, that that idea had no merit, when most of the northerners are already actively or passively standing against the Boltons, and at least some of those northerners know that Bran and Rickon are alive and/or know whom Robb named in his will and/or that "Arya" is fake. Unless you think that Barbrey Dustin and a few Cerwyns (who might like to know how Cley Cerwyn died) speak for everyone else? Just because Jon might not know those facts doesn't mean that Ramsay is the rightful Lord of Winterfell. That's like saying, "I slept through election day and read the wrong report and now think that Mitt Romney defeated Barack Obama." If Obama actually won, does the fact that I don't know that mean that Obama isn't the president?

And the threat that Jon answered to was a threat to his own person. It had nothing to do with Ramsay's alleged lordship over Winterfell, even if Ramsay falsely declared himself to be its lord.

[The King in the South]

His basic reaction during the Janos incident and I think he attacked Jon because, by giving battle to Ramsay, he was giving battle to the son and heir of the Warden of the North. He thought that since Stannis was dead, killing the Lord Commander who gave meat and mead to a rebel of the Iron Throne could get him forgiven. I've been over this so many times so forgive me if I'd prefer not to go into how Jon never broke an oath nor would he have if he attacked Ramsay, even if it was politically motivated.

Giving respect to the Iron Throne=/=being loyal or serving the Iron Throne.

And I'm pretty sure he killed Jon because in his eyes because he thought by doing so he was saving the NW. And not because of the vow part, because I think either way if Jon had remained LC there was going to be a confrontation with Ramsay. (that would probably wipe out the NW)

It makes sense, because he obviously was emotionally torn at what he was doing (and he knew it was technically "wrong") but in his eyes it was for the greater good.

I love how you deleted the part where I pointed out that Jon knows that Sansa at least is still alive.

Hmm, I don't quite recall this. How exactly does Jon know if Sansa is alive?

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Yea i dont think we can call a murdering turncloak a good guy.He is no Gregor but rather more of a lancel?(too cowardly to murder outright).Atleast gregor was a brave guy..

its not bravery when wow know you've got the sheer physical size and numbers over your adversary. He was similarly psycho as Ramsay but had the favour of Tywin, super scary. I want to know whose head qyburn gave him, assuming the skull sent to dorne was his.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hmm, I don't quite recall this. How exactly does Jon know if Sansa is alive?

He knows that she married Tyrion. I don't remember if he knows that she's left the capital, but even if he thinks she's on the run, he has no good reason to think that she's dead and unless someone points out a passage where he thinks of her as being dead, I'm taking the position that he thinks she's still alive.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

And more loyal to the Iron Throne than the Lord Commander, from what I gather.

not loyal to the iron throne, loyal to himself and acting in his own best interest. As far as i see it all the old wall chronies were happy with how things had been done for years because there was little challenge or surprises .They had it how they liked it, not how it should be to fulfill its purpose.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Giving respect to the Iron Throne=/=being loyal or serving the Iron Throne.

And I'm pretty sure he killed Jon because in his eyes because he thought by doing so he was saving the NW. And not because of the vow part, because I think either way if Jon had remained LC there was going to be a confrontation with Ramsay. (that would probably wipe out the NW)

It makes sense, because he obviously was emotionally torn at what he was doing (and he knew it was technically "wrong") but in his eyes it was for the greater good.

Ramsay threatened to kill Jon Snow if he did not offer up hostages that Jon did not have. Jon would have probably won if he chose to give battle to Ramsay when the Watch was threatened. Because the WIldlings may be even superior to the already efficient Northerners under Stannis when its Winter. Not to mention there are just so many of them. Jon never broke his vows, so Bowen was either loyal to the Iron Throne or delusional.

[Net-Viper X]

I still have a firm belief that he was being controlled by something or someone. The way he backs away with the frightened look like it wasn't him always gave me cause to wonder. I don't think hes a bad guy and I don't really think he would have the courage to attempt that kind of thing, he always seemed rather cowardly to me. Cowards don't walk up and stab people face to face, they stab people from behind or better yet, hire someone else to do the stabbing for them. I think the whole incident has very dark undertones and there is something more behind it then a few guys simply being unhappy with the choices of their commander. The prime mover is probably just crafty and clever enough to make it appear to be a conspiracy from within, when in fact its something far greater and more sinister than all that. If I was a believer in the AA prophecy I would almost be inclined to believe that Mel might have been behind it, in an attempt to force the prophecy by killing Jon so he can be reborne as the great hero.

[The King in the South]

Ramsay threatened to kill Jon Snow if he did not offer up hostages that Jon did not have. Jon would have probably won if he chose to give battle to Ramsay when the Watch was threatened. Because the WIldlings may be even superior to the already efficient Northerners under Stannis when its Winter. Not to mention there are just so many of them. Jon never broke his vows, so Bowen was either loyal to the Iron Throne or delusional.

Err, how would Bowen know that though? According to the letter, Stannis is dead, and his men routed. Ramsay has a much larger army than that of the watch and he has the support of the South. Not necessarily good odds there.

And you completely missed my point. Bowen was crying when he killed Jon because he knew that Jon probably didn't deserve it, but in his eyes he didn't have much of a choice because he thought Ramsay was going to wipe them out. After Jon was dead, I imagine he was going to turn over Selsye/Melisandre, because in his eyes, the Watch is more important than them. (Which is a whole other debate)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

While I don't think Bowen Marsh is a bad guy, I can't help but think that arguing over his goodness or lack thereof is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, given that his ultimate fate probably involves an ax, a sword, a fire, a direwolf attack or some other kind of messiness in the near future. :dunce: