Stannis' leeches

[Gingerly Grumkin]

So here is the closest quote i could find about Mel loves Stannis, its in ADWD

"The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf’s face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers."

If her "champion" is Stannis why would she trick him?

So he would welcome her to Dragonstone? The Queen did that.

So he would welcome her to his bed? He did that regardless

So he will belive in her power? He doesn't

So he will kill Edric Storm? He didn't

[BabyMeraxes]

Dannister - GRRM wrote that scene with Melisandre for a reason. He connected her to those murders. Even if her leeches did junk, she still has a relationship with those deaths, literarily.

Divinity and Magic, that shit is often unperceived by mortal guiles, but let me try: Without Melisandre's influence, maybe Robb would have joined the wedding party during the bedding, and maybe he would've been in a better position to defend himself from the Freys. Maybe he would've heeded Greywind's warning at the gate. As another commenter wrote before, maybe Joff poured the poison'd wine on Tyrion's head. Any number of things could've prevented the original murder plans from happening. But they happened, and GRRM made a point to involve Melisandre. Maybe these leeches mean shit, maybe they were crucial. My point was that you, Apple Martini, like me, can't say either for certain. Hopefully we'll learn the truth.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm pretty sure you will), but we don't know for a fact that Melisandre burned the leeches before Sansa confessed to the Tyrells. I don't really think that matters, though.

[teemo]

Dannister - GRRM wrote that scene with Melisandre for a reason. He connected her to those murders. Even if her leeches did junk, she still has a relationship with those deaths, literarily.

If they did "junk," then how do you know there was a relationship? Why couldn't she have just seen things in the fire and pretended like she was actually the one behind it, when in reality she did nothing? I don't know the answer, but it's impossible to say that she is definitely connected to those murders.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dannister - GRRM wrote that scene with Melisandre for a reason. He connected her to those murders. Even if her leeches did junk, she still has a relationship with those deaths, literarily.

No one has said that the scene was included for no reason. It was a pretty big reason: to give Stannis the illusion that Melisandre could actually control events. That does not mean that she does.

Divinity and Magic, that shit is often unperceived by mortal guiles, but let me try: Without Melisandre's influence, maybe Robb would have joined the wedding party during the bedding, and maybe he would've been in a better position to defend himself from the Freys. Maybe he would've heeded Greywind's warning at the gate. As another commenter wrote before, maybe Joff poured the poison'd wine on Tyrion's head. Any number of things could've prevented the original murder plans from happening. But they happened, and GRRM made a point to involve Melisandre. Maybe these leeches mean shit, maybe they were crucial. My point was that you, Apple Martini, like me, can't say either for certain. Hopefully we'll learn the truth.

And maybe the ASOIAF world is really in the eye of a giant. If you can't actually nail down causation -- like I can nail down causation in Robb's death to the Freys and Bolton's, Joffrey's death to Littlefinger and the Tyrells and Balon's death to Euron -- then ...

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm pretty sure you will), but we don't know for a fact that Melisandre burned the leeches before Sansa confessed to the Tyrells. I don't really think that matters, though.

The book's interior chronology is hard to pin down, but in terms of page count, the Tyrell meeting is significantly before the leeches. In any case, it's likely that the Joffrey murder plot was hatched when Littlefinger went to secure the marriage to Margaery, and Olenna was just asking Sansa for a confirmation of what she already knew.

[BabyMeraxes]

Dannister - Exactly, I'm just saying GRRM took the time to include that scene, so from a purely literary perspective, Melisandre is connected (not influenced, just connected) to those murders. However, because this is a book and all, I put a lot a weight behind that.

Apple Martini - that's probably green apple, huh? - This series isn't finished, so you can't possibly say for certain if Melisandre's leeches did or did not influence those deaths. That scene, and the rising influence of magic in this world, is evidence enough to suggest that there was something more at work. At least, that's the way I read it. And that's my point; there are more secrets to unravel. I get what your opinion of these events are, but you can't tell me that my opinion, while maybe unpopular or more unlikely, is wrong AS OF THIS MOMENT. When A Dream of Spring is done and read, I give you free reign.

Also, no one has confirmed that the Tyrell's killed Joff. So, duh, it was obviously Melisandre's magic leeches. :)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Why is it so easy to accept that she can see the future and give birth to King/Lordslaying shadow babys. But after doing this whole spiel with Leeches, and fire & blood and Stannis chanting those names...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple Martini - that's probably green apple, huh? - This series isn't finished, so you can't possibly say for certain if Melisandre's leeches did or did not influence those deaths. That scene, and the rising influence of magic in this world, is evidence enough to suggest that there was something more at work. At least, that's the way I read it. And that's my point; there are more secrets to unravel. I get what your opinion of these events are, but you can't tell me that my opinion, while maybe unpopular or more unlikely, is wrong AS OF THIS MOMENT. When A Dream of Spring is done and read, I give you free reign.

Also, no one has confirmed that the Tyrell's killed Joff. So, duh, it was obviously Melisandre's magic leeches. :)

1. If any evidence, at all, of any kind, anywhere, shows up to concretely tie Melisandre to the deaths other than "magic did it," I will admit I was incorrect.

2. Littlefinger hinted as much to Sansa. But if you want to get technical. The Ghost of High Heart saw a maid with purple serpents in her hair. Sansa was given the hairnet from Dontos (who got it from Baelish) to wear to Joffrey's wedding. It had purple stones in it. Olenna Tyrell "adjusted" it and in doing so, nicked a stone (Sansa sees one's missing, no one touched it but Olenna). The Tyrells are at the high table and had easy access to Joffrey's food and drink. Joffrey ends up dying from poison and Littlefinger, as I said, tells Sansa obtusely that Olenna Tyrell is behind it, with him. Based on all of this, the only thing we can conclude is that ... Melisandre did it by tossing leeches into a fire.

Why is it so easy to accept that she can see the future and give birth to King/Lordslaying shadow babys. But after doing this whole spiel with Leeches, and fire & blood and Stannis chanting those names...

Because we've seen that Melisandre can (half-assedly?) see the future, and we SAW HER BIRTH A SHADOWBABY. :P Stuff that's a little more concrete than tossing leeches in a fire and claiming that they're the cause of something that she knew was going to happen anyway.

[Nev yn]

But after doing this whole spiel with Leeches, and fire & blood and Stannis chanting those names...

Because the Red Wedding was why Robb was killed, and it was planned long before the fire and blood and chanting. Same with Joffrey's poisoning plot, and the need for a Faceless Man to travel all the way to Westeros from Braavos (the Faceless Men are great assassins, but only if a Red Priestess sacrifices a leech for them?). The fact that people need to say "uhh..maybe he wouldn't have gone if she didn't burn the leeches" when he was already there or "maybe these well-thought-out plans would have failed if not for the leeches, but the leeches totally made them not fail" just shows that people are trying too hard to ignore what's actually in the books. It's just not plausible that the king-killing was due to the leeches. Especially after we have a Melisandre point of view themed "make your magic seem more powerful and easy than it really is", this forced way of looking at events is silly.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Because the Red Wedding was why Robb was killed, and it was planned long before the fire and blood and chanting. Same with Joffrey's poisoning plot, and the need for a Faceless Man to travel all the way to Westeros from Braavos (the Faceless Men are great assassins, but only if a Red Priestess sacrifices a leech for them?). The fact that people need to say "uhh..maybe he wouldn't have gone if she didn't burn the leeches" when he was already there or "maybe these well-thought-out plans would have failed if not for the leeches, but the leeches totally made them not fail" just shows that people are trying too hard to ignore what's actually in the books. It's just not plausible that the king-killing was due to the leeches. Especially after we have a Melisandre point of view themed "make your magic seem more powerful and easy than it really is", this forced way of looking at events is silly.

but why would she lie? To get the queen and her brother to belive in the power?

Yes Robb's death was already in the planning, but maybe if it was not for the Leeches then Robb would have been distracted from the Twins. And the only conformation we have that Joff was the target and not Tyrion came from the mouth of LF, which is exactly why i dont belive it

[Nev yn]

but why would she lie? To get the queen and her brother to belive in the power?

Why would she care about the queen and her brother? She wants Stannis.to believe in her power. Selyse was already a fanatic. Reading that book, Stannis's discussions with Davos make it clear that he isn't convinced by deities that don't do anything for him (hence why he doesn't care a fig for the Seven). She needs him to believe she's powerful. She has a nice chance to bolster that impression when she sees the death of the three kings in her fires, and jumps on it. And later in Melisandre's POV she reveals that she sees the most important thing to be the perception of power. There's just no feasible way to attribute the leeches to plans that had been weeks or months in the making.

but maybe if it was not for the Leeches then Robb would have been distracted from the Twins.

How? He needed the Twins. That was the whole point of the Red Wedding. They knew he needed them, and they took advantage to take him out and curry favor with Tywin. Robb didn't exactly stop by there on a lark, to take a short vacation.

And the only conformation we have that Joff was the target and not Tyrion came from the mouth of LF, which is exactly why i dont belive it

Uh, Littlefinger supplied the poison. Why would he be so smug after an assassination that he was masterminding if it hit the wrong target?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

but why would she lie? To get the queen and her brother to belive in the power?

She might be under pressure to show she's actually doing something. She might think the prophecy needs to be "helped." Who knows. She cares a great deal about passing off at least the illusion of her power, per her POV.

Yes Robb's death was already in the planning, but maybe if it was not for the Leeches then Robb would have been distracted from the Twins.

And if your aunt had a dick, he'd be your uncle. :cheers:

And the only conformation we have that Joff was the target and not Tyrion came from the mouth of LF, which is exactly why i dont belive it

There's a boatload of other circumstantial evidence other than Baelish's word, which I agree is weak on its own. The Ghost's vision, Sansa's hairnet, the missing stone, Cressen's prologue, Olenna "adjusting" the hairnet, the Tyrells' clear motive and access, etc. I don't see why Tyrion would be the target. ETA: As has been said, the people involved are in good spirits for an assassination that supposedly failed.

[Turkey Jack]

but why would she lie? To get the queen and her brother to belive in the power?

Cant be bothered looking for the passage but she remarks about Jon Snow that he should act powerful if he wants to be powerful.

Yes Mel has power but she is also a showman, this is probably due to the fact that until the return of the dragons the red priests powers where not so grate so needed to make a show to amaze people, however making herself look more powerful dose her no harm in converting the unbelievers and sceptics

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Why would she care about the queen and her brother? She wants Stannis.to believe in her power. Selyse was already a fanatic. Reading that book, Stannis's discussions with Davos make it clear that he isn't convinced by deities that don't do anything for him (hence why he doesn't care a fig for the Seven). She needs him to believe she's powerful. She has a nice chance to bolster that impression when she sees the death of the three kings in her fires, and jumps on it. And later in Melisandre's POV she reveals that she sees the most important thing to be the perception of power. There's just no feasible way to attribute the leeches to plans that had been weeks or months in the making.

But Stannis still doesn't belive, or if he did he does not show it. Mel gained nothing from these Leeches except for 3 FUCKING DEAD USURPERS!

How? He needed the Twins. That was the whole point of the Red Wedding. They knew he needed them, and they took advantage to take him out and curry favor with Tywin. Robb didn't exactly stop by there on a lark, to take a short vacation.

idk? he stubbed his toe? Cat ate some bad mutton? Westerling goes thru labor? Jaime Lannister never sends his regards?

Uh, Littlefinger supplied the poison. Why would he be so smug after an assassination that he was masterminding if it hit the wrong target?

what should he say? *snaps his fingers* darn it Sweetling i tried to kill your hubby of a Lannister, but insted killed your worst enemy, im sorry... want to give your father a kiss?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@Martini

everything i said to Nev could be said to you. Im not gonna get into Tyrion is the target, because no one believes me.... but i guess no one believes me about the Leeches either... ill say this, LF wants Sansa to be a widdow

e.t.a. wait what Ghost vision?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Martini

everything i said to Nev could be said to you. Im not gonna get into Tyrion is the target, because no one believes me.... but i guess no one believes me about the Leeches either...

Not really, no. Sorry boo. :(

[Turkey Jack]

Lets turn this around then if there where no leeches would the three have died?

[Winter's Lady]

Lets turn this around then if there where no leeches would the three have died?

My wild guess: Yes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Lets turn this around then if there where no leeches would the three have died?

Considering that the plans to kill them were either definitely or highly likely to have been in motion before the leeches, and no one has been able to directly tie the leeches and/or Melisandre to the deaths, I'm gonna say ... yeah.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Lets turn this around then if there where no leeches would the three have died?

... <_<

Look Mel is 100% down with whatever the fuck she is doing (in the long run), no second thoughts.

Stannis is bangin her on the reg, no reason to ditch her.

So why in the seven hells would she make up this little act with Leeches?

[Turkey Jack]

... <_<

Look Mel is 100% down with whatever the fuck she is doing (in the long run), no second thoughts.

Stannis is bangin her on the reg, no reason to ditch her.

So why in the seven hells would she make up this little act with Leeches?

That is not answering the question :)